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DonLeon
Guest
Only if he asks for it.Gottle of gear seems to be a fallen away catholic doesn’t he? Maybe you should help him DonLeon?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
R
ricko
Guest
Why me, you’re LDS, Catholic and now you’re also a Baptist?
The BOM came about from the devious mind of Joseph Smith. It is no great feat to write a book of fiction as millions of people (authors) have done so.
The eleven witnesses were not very objective. They all knew JS. Some were related to each other. It is not hard to mislead people and people can be convinced to believe just about anything. I can show you more witnesses to the Roswell UFO crash than to the golden plates. Some of the statements from the witnesses are a little screwy. Why me, just because someone says something is true does not make it true. Better witnesses would have been people of good education that did not know Joseph Smith. Look, in the BOM when Jesus appeared to the group in America He let HUNDREDS of people probe His wounds and they saw Him come down from heaven. That was Jesus! The best JS could do is eleven witnesses? Give me a break!
There are countless things that are wrong with the BOM. My favorite is the lost manuscript. To me, that is the most damning evidence that the “most correct book ever written” is a fraud.
J
Jerusha
Guest
LOL Gottle of Geer is a Catholic of an intellectual and academic type who is beyond my minimal qualifications. Legitimate criticism keeps the Catholic Church on the straight and narrow.Only if he asks for it.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Interesting that the LDS church rejects all criticism.
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DonLeon
Guest
Yep, that it does. :harp:
As for the LDS church, I thought I was the only one that thought that. :doh2:
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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ParkerD
Guest
Rick made some comments that were interesting. I wish he or anyone would try writing one page of authentic material such as the Book of Mormon is, to show how “easy” it is.
Here is a passage that rings “true” to me in content and ideas, but evidently not to some Catholics:
1 Nephi 11:14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.
16 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?
17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.
21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?
22 And I answered him, saying: Yea, it is the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, it is the most desirable above all things.
23 And he spake unto me, saying: Yea, and the most joyous to the soul.
24 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.
25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.
26 And the angel said unto me again: Look and behold the condescension of God!
Here is a passage that rings “true” to me in content and ideas, but evidently not to some Catholics:
1 Nephi 11:14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.
16 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?
17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.
21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?
22 And I answered him, saying: Yea, it is the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, it is the most desirable above all things.
23 And he spake unto me, saying: Yea, and the most joyous to the soul.
24 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.
25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.
26 And the angel said unto me again: Look and behold the condescension of God!
J
Jerusha
Guest
I like Jacob 2:30-35, Jacob 3:4-5,
Mosiah 1:12-13, Mosiah 4:13-19, Mosiah 4:26, Mosiah 18:4, Mosiah 26 (problem) with Mosiah 27:2-4 (solution), Mosiah 28:13-16,
Alma 1:4, Alma 1:21-22, Alma 10:18-27, Alma 17:36-39, Alma 19:5-18, the geography of Alma 22:27-34, Alam 30:23-28, Alma 44:9-11 for its ambivalence, Alma 63:4-10, Helaman 3:3-11 for ite ecological message,
Helaman 4:23-24, Helaman 13-18-19, 31, 35 for its criticism of treasure-digging,
III Nephi 2:14-16, III Nephi 3 for its parody of LDS rhetoric, III Nephi 4:7 for its parody of the Protestant interpretation of “washed clean in the Blood of the Lamb”, III Nephi 11:34-40,
Mormon 1:13-16 in its prophecy of the current state of the LDS church, Mormon 4:18
Ether 2:16-23, Ether 8:8-14 for its use of a NT theme, Ether 8:23-25 for its criticism of the LDS church, Ether 15:29-32,
and Moroni 9
My lists focuses on the parts I find funny or ironical. There are other parts I like because the tragedy of genocide is so poignantly stated, but I will list those later.
Mosiah 1:12-13, Mosiah 4:13-19, Mosiah 4:26, Mosiah 18:4, Mosiah 26 (problem) with Mosiah 27:2-4 (solution), Mosiah 28:13-16,
Alma 1:4, Alma 1:21-22, Alma 10:18-27, Alma 17:36-39, Alma 19:5-18, the geography of Alma 22:27-34, Alam 30:23-28, Alma 44:9-11 for its ambivalence, Alma 63:4-10, Helaman 3:3-11 for ite ecological message,
Helaman 4:23-24, Helaman 13-18-19, 31, 35 for its criticism of treasure-digging,
III Nephi 2:14-16, III Nephi 3 for its parody of LDS rhetoric, III Nephi 4:7 for its parody of the Protestant interpretation of “washed clean in the Blood of the Lamb”, III Nephi 11:34-40,
Mormon 1:13-16 in its prophecy of the current state of the LDS church, Mormon 4:18
Ether 2:16-23, Ether 8:8-14 for its use of a NT theme, Ether 8:23-25 for its criticism of the LDS church, Ether 15:29-32,
and Moroni 9
My lists focuses on the parts I find funny or ironical. There are other parts I like because the tragedy of genocide is so poignantly stated, but I will list those later.
T
Talevita
Guest
I was born and raised in Utah, so I learned all about the Mormon church during public school even though I have always been Catholic. I’ll just break in and say that there is no man called Mormon. The Book of Mormon is the “Bible” of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Written by Joseph Smith X number many years ago, founder of the Mormon, Latter Day Saints church. Those of us in Utah who have the Bible instead are considered outcasts because we are not LDS.
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ParkerD
Guest
Hi, Talevita,
Sorry you felt excluded living in Salt Lake City, which by the way is only about 60% LDS population. My children have always tried to befriend non-LDS classmates in the area where we live, Farmington. I did that also many years ago in a community near Salt Lake City, and my life was much the richer for it. I still treasure those friendships.
Mormons use the Bible right alongside the Book of Mormon. You may have gotten wrong information. That does happen.
Which passages in the Bible do you love the best? I have many favorites. Have a good day.
Sorry you felt excluded living in Salt Lake City, which by the way is only about 60% LDS population. My children have always tried to befriend non-LDS classmates in the area where we live, Farmington. I did that also many years ago in a community near Salt Lake City, and my life was much the richer for it. I still treasure those friendships.
Mormons use the Bible right alongside the Book of Mormon. You may have gotten wrong information. That does happen.
Which passages in the Bible do you love the best? I have many favorites. Have a good day.
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zerinus
Guest
Maybe it would have been better if you had said that is your opinion. That statement cannot be proved or disproved either way, any more than its opposite can be.
That sounds strange. All Latter-day Saints I know are very friendly and accomodating towards of people of other faiths. Mybe it has beem more a matter of self-exclusion than exclusion by LDS?
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
Hi Parker,
I’m a little confused about the “condescension of God”. The definition of condescension is :“patronizingly superior behavior or attitude”. Why would God patronize us? That seems to be the opposite how he regards us, at least I HOPE so!
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ParkerD
Guest
Hi, Christine,
There are two connotations of “condescension” in the dictionary, the first being “voluntary descent from one’s rank”, which would be the correct connotation in those verses. If you break down the word, “con” means “with” or “be with”, so the connotation would be that Christ has “come down to be with” as well as “come down from His high station” to perform His mission on earth as the Son of God. Nephi also saw His life on earth and all the suffering that was involved in His life, which really was a “condescension” if you think about His exalted glory before He came to earth, and what He went through during His life, including the crucifixion which Nephi saw as a part of what was going to happen. Here are a few more verses from that chapter:
31 And he spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Lamb of God going forth among the children of men. And I beheld multitudes of people who were sick, and who were afflicted with all manner of diseases, and with devils and unclean spirits; and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me. And they were healed by the power of the Lamb of God; and the devils and the unclean spirits were cast out.
32 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record.
33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.
Thanks for asking for the clarification. I really appreciate that, and hope all is very well with you.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
Thanks for the clarification, I guess the use of that word might have been more common in the context of what you cited at that time in history. Maybe the negative connotation is favored now because most people have no right to be condescending toward each other, but in the case of God, I see what you mean!
All is going well, I am starting to read “Rough Stone Rolling” about J. Smith, it’s quite an interesting read. Hope you are doing well too!
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ParkerD
Guest
Christine,Thanks for the clarification, I guess the use of that word might have been more common in the context of what you cited at that time in history. Maybe the negative connotation is favored now because most people have no right to be condescending toward each other, but in the case of God, I see what you mean!
All is going well, I am starting to read “Rough Stone Rolling” about J. Smith, it’s quite an interesting read. Hope you are doing well too!
I hope you enjoy that. I’ve read parts, but not the whole book, but enjoyed the parts I did read. I was impressed with its thoroughness.
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ParkerD
Guest
Don Leon,
If you should happen back here, I thought you might enjoy reading the following small article about relationships between hieroglyphics of Egypt and of an ancient New World group (the Aztecs).
earthmatrix.com/linguistic/ancient_egyptian_hieroglyphs.htm
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
This guy also believes in Mayan space travel (c.690 AD).
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zerinus
Guest
Just to add a comment to what ParkerD has said, the Book of Mormon is written in the Elizabethan English of the KJV, and many English words have since acquired additional meanings that they may not have had back then. The word “condescend” probably did not have the negative meaning that is associated with it today. It is used in the KJV once, in the following context: “Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits” (Romans 12:16). This expression, “condescend to men of low estate,” basically means, “Don’t be proud,” “Don’t be class-conscious,” “Don’t stay aloof from people you may consider below you in the social scale because of wealth or privilege”. In those days (an in many societies today, perhaps not so much in the US), people divide themselves formally or informally into various social classes; and those of higher classes don’t socialize on familiar terms with those of lower ones. But in the eyes of God all men are equal, therefore that is not something that God approves of—especially in a church setting. When you go to church, it doesn’t matter whether you are rich or poor, or of high birth or low birth. Everyone becomes equal. In this sense Jesus performed the ultimate act of “condescension” by coming down from the highest station imaginable, that God, to become not only a mortal man, but a man of a very low station. He chose not to be born in a palace to a king, but in a manger to a lowly carpenter. Throughout His life He lived the life of the common people, and socialized with them on their level, and called them his “brethren”. There are many scriptural verses that describe His “condescension,” but perhaps this one is the most revealing:Thanks for the clarification, I guess the use of that word might have been more common in the context of what you cited at that time in history. Maybe the negative connotation is favored now because most people have no right to be condescending toward each other, but in the case of God, I see what you mean!
Luke 22:
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
And of course, the ultimate act of service He performed was His Atonement for the sins of the world, which is what is meant by the “condescension” of God.
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geometer
Guest
I am not an english scholar, but I have been told that the english of the KJV is unique because it tries to follow the hebrew word for word. I believe Elizabethan English is a bit different.
And by the way, the image in your signature is too wide. It stretches the page.
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DonLeon
Guest
Many thanks, Parker, for the information. That is quite interesting. It follows the same pattern that most modern languages are basically Indo-European, such as the Romance languages, the Germanic languages, etc., ( except for Basque ). But what has that to do with the subject of “reformed Egyptian” ?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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zerinus
Guest
The KJV was translated in 1611, that is nearly 400 years ago. The English of that period is known as Elizabethan English. It is the same English in which Shakespeare wrote his plays. The fact that it is also a literal translation is beside the point.
That is caused by giving your monitor too low a resolution. If you right click on your desktop, and select “Properties” –> “Settings,” it gives you the option to give your computer the correct screen resolution.
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Zundrah
Guest
No DonLeon, you **must ****not **wait for him to ask! Did the stray lamb ask Christ to return it to the flock!? NO, OF COURSE NOT! But christ went and saved him of his own accord! As should you with Gotlle of Gear! Gottle of Gear is definately having some serious problems with his faith! Help him noooooow!!!Only if he asks for it.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
AND… don’t even think of asking me to do it, I’m not catholic so I can’t… you do it!
DonLeon, IT’S YOUR TIME TO SHINE!
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