The Book of Mormon... have you read it?

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Finrock said:
Your point about Solomon Spaulding writing the text isn’t true. Even if Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon, your assertion about Solomon Spaulding is baseless. It is baseless to the point where it is irrational to even make that claim.

Kind Regards,
Finrock
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There were TWO Spalding texts. The first one was a story about Roman soldiers in North America. It is still in existence. The second one (and evidence points to Sidney Rigdon as the thief) is apparently no longer in existence. Probably destroyed by LDS. At solomonspalding.com/Lib/Jock2008.htm you will find an abstract of an article on a computerized word-frequency study. The controls acted as expected. Spalding’s existing manuscript CLEARLY did not act as a control. After Rigdon and Isaiah, he accumulated many “points” for being the author of individual chapters. I would suggest you get a copy of that article and read it.

Not only that, but as a validation of the methodology, the chapters of Mosiah and Alma which the study attributed to Oliver Cowdery had few grammatical errors. The chapters of those “books” which were not attributed to Cowdery had the most errors in the entire BOM. Remember, he was a schoolteacher, the most literate person of the team.

That convinced me.

I believe that most adherents of the Spalding theory are objective non-Mormons, who value parts of the book. Adherents of the JS-only theory tend to be rabidly anti-Mormon, and say that ALL of the book is garbage.
 
Jerusha,
Who were the “seven potential authors” used in the computerized word study you have cited? (The abstract doesn’t say, as far as I can tell.)
 
Hi all, if I might butt in I think I can add a little to this thread. Joseph Smith was a snakeoil peddler that used a peep stone to find oil, gas, coal, diamonds, etc, etc, by placing a polished stone in his hat and then putting his face in the hat to devine any valueables on your property for a fee in advance. He was also a mason who tried to usurp the masonic throne in the U.S. It is thought he was killed by bro. masons for this reason. However Im getting ahead of my self, pardon. After trying many different scams to get rich, he was banished from most towns he visited because of this. He had the vision of a new religion and that is when the angel moroni, paid him a visit. He was told of some golden plates buried in an apple orchard in N.Y. that he was supposed to dig up and translate to reestablish Christ church in the world since all of christianity had become apostate and there was no salvation left in the world. The only way he could do this was with some magic spectactles that moroni would furnish. He was the only one to see the plates or specs. so a blanket was hung on a clothes line and he sat on one side and a male sec. sat on the other and wrote everything down as joe translated. This was then read to his followers and they were banished from N.Y. He went to carthage Mo. Illinois and established his church there on the border between the two states. Wasnt much law then but, starting the church all over ment all the way back in the jewish part also, hence plural marriage was the norm. For this reason he was jailed and later killed by a mob probably instigated by bro. masons stirring the crowd. It is proposed that the book of mormon is just a rehash of the Old Test. book of Ezek. and some others. He said the gold plates were in hyroglifics and furnished some to the Smithonian, who said it was gibberish. I dont know why any thinking person would want to read it as there is a lot of falsehood involved in the whole mormon thing. By the way , they are the richest org. in the world but dont advertize it and have prophesies that they will take over the U.S. some day and spread the message to the whole world. They don`t claim to be “christian” and are insulted by that term. Like all cults you are keeped in the dark until you by the “pitch” then you are told about KOLOB, ha ha ha. An excellent source book is the Mormons by William Whalen. GOD BLESS. His will be done Garland
 
Jerusha said:
There were TWO Spalding texts. The first one was a story about Roman soldiers in North America. It is still in existence. The second one (and evidence points to Sidney Rigdon as the thief) is apparently no longer in existence. Probably destroyed by LDS. At solomonspalding.com/Lib/Jock2008.htm you will find an abstract of an article on a computerized word-frequency study. The controls acted as expected. Spalding’s existing manuscript CLEARLY did not act as a control. After Rigdon and Isaiah, he accumulated many “points” for being the author of individual chapters. I would suggest you get a copy of that article and read it.

Not only that, but as a validation of the methodology, the chapters of Mosiah and Alma which the study attributed to Oliver Cowdery had few grammatical errors. The chapters of those “books” which were not attributed to Cowdery had the most errors in the entire BOM. Remember, he was a schoolteacher, the most literate person of the team.

That convinced me.

I believe that most adherents of the Spalding theory are objective non-Mormons, who value parts of the book. Adherents of the JS-only theory tend to be rabidly anti-Mormon, and say that ALL of the book is garbage.
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There is supposedly a copy of the original manuscript by Spalding in existence. I don’t know if this is true.

As for the gramatical errors, the church of LDS claimed that the BOM “is the most correct book ever written.”

To all LDS: my remarks and comments are not meant to be derogatory, but are presented as facts. Shalom Chevarim.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Garland,

Whoa! I’m not even a fan of the BOM, but your diatribe is tad much. You did get the part of about “golden plates buried in N.Y.” right, and I think Illinois is right. Don’t know 'bout “usurping the masonic throne and getting killed by brother masons”, I h’aint heard that one before. I’m also pretty sure that Mormons do claim to be Christians are not at all insulted by the term.

and oh by the way, there are plenty of thinking people would want to (and do) read the BOM. I guessing that it might not be helpful to dump on them, JS’s desire to usurp the masonic throne, not withstanding! 😉

-kc
Garland said:
Hi all, if I might butt in I think I can add a little to this thread. Joseph Smith was a snakeoil peddler … GOD BLESS. His will be done Garland
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"the people who wrote the book of Mormon’. One person wrote it, Joseph Smith. Characters identified in this book are fiction. After Joseph Smith, editors later adjusted this text to accommodate laws and mores. NO corroborating evidence has ever been revealed establishing even loosely, the characters identified in this book.
 
davidrasch said:
"the people who wrote the book of Mormon’. One person wrote it, Joseph Smith. Characters identified in this book are fiction. After Joseph Smith, editors later adjusted this text to accommodate laws and mores. NO corroborating evidence has ever been revealed establishing even loosely, the characters identified in this book.
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I would suggest you read this. There is evidence pointing to Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdrey and Joseph Smith as co-authors based on a Spalding manuscript. As much as the LDS have tried to bury this theory, they haven’t been able to and more evidence has been found to support it:

i4m.com/think/history/Book-of-Mormon.pdf
 
ParkerD said:
Jerusha,
Who were the “seven potential authors” used in the computerized word study you have cited? (The abstract doesn’t say, as far as I can tell.)
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Longfellow, and someone named Barlow were the two controls. Oliver Cowdery, Solomon Spalding, Sidney Rigdon, Isaiah/Malachi, and Parley Pratt were the possibilities.

Joseph Smith was not included because there is very little that he directly WROTE; he usually used scribes. There is very little in existence from his own pen.

Thank you for your curiosity.

I have made a number of subtle suggestions about quite a few other authors, but nothing has been done. 🤷
 
Garland said:
they were banished from N.Y. He went to carthage Mo. Illinois and established his church there on the border between the two states.
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They were banished form Ohio in a banking scandal. They then went to Western Missouri, what is now the Kansas City area. They were run out of there for lawless behavior. Although there is a Carthage Missouri, that is not where they moved to next. They went to a sleepy little village on the Mississippi river, called Commerce, Illinois. They renamed it Nauvoo. They settled there, and through land fraud, spread throughout the area, including a Sac & Fox reservation across the river in Iowa.

This whole area is at the juncture of the Mississippi and Des Moines rivers, and the three states of Illinois, Iowa, and Missouri. There were rapids just south of them, making this the furthest south navigable part of the upper Mississippi. It was a very strategic area.

They were then run out of there, with the exposure of polygamy (read extreme sexual harrassment, amounting to rape in some cases), and many went to Utah under Brigham Young.

Garland, you are so full of misinformation, you might as well be Joseph Smith. It is no wonder that LDS are defending their faith on the internet with people like you around.
 
Jerusha said:
Longfellow, and someone named Barlow were the two controls. Oliver Cowdery, Solomon Spalding, Sidney Rigdon, Isaiah/Malachi, and Parley Pratt were the possibilities.

Joseph Smith was not included because there is very little that he directly WROTE; he usually used scribes. There is very little in existence from his own pen.

Thank you for your curiosity.

I have made a number of subtle suggestions about quite a few other authors, but nothing has been done. 🤷
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Jerusha,
Thanks. This is all funny to me. Some study–out of Standford University? Funny.
 
Nauvoo is in Hancock County. Carthage is the county seat, and Joseph and Hiram Smith were murdered in Carthage.

Please don’t contest my information. I was raised in that county.
 
Jerusha said:
:rolleyes: Sorry. I understand that Stanford’s graduate program in statistics is one of the best in the world.
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More Mormons refusing to come to grips with reality. A study coming out of Stanford would generally carry some weight as compared to a study coming out of BYU. I’m a BYU graduate, but I know the difference in how the world would look at it.
 
Jerusha said:
:rolleyes: Sorry. I understand that Stanford’s graduate program in statistics is one of the best in the world.
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Jerusha,
Statistics show whatever the data output is from the data (name removed by moderator)ut. Joseph Smith has a large volume of personal writings. The limited sample used by the supposed scholars for this study would not be accepted as a valid statistical sampling for the conclusion they drew, in any valid university program in statistics anywhere, unless the professors had authored the study themselves. They biased the sample, so the result is also biased.
 
JS did not write much at all. Even his own journals are in the majority, dictated. He depended largely on scribes, a few instances on ghost writers (the writings of which he approved). Jerusha already pointed this out.

To include various scribes, known and unknown, would be an error in method. To leave them out is the correct statistical choice.

I agree that it is unfortuneate that there are not more of JS writings, in his own hand, to actually add to this study.
 
For ParkerD:

"Although Joseph’s writing compares favorably with his contemporaries’, he seldom used the pen himself, dictating or delegating most of his writing to clerks. A complicated life and feelings of literary inadequacy explain this dependence. He lamented his “lack of fluency in address,”[12](javascript:popup(‘notes#n-12’)😉 his “writing imperfections,”[13](javascript:popup(‘notes#n-13’)😉 and his "inability’’[14](javascript:popup(‘notes#n-14’)😉 to convey his ideas in writing. Communication seemed to him to present an insurmountable barrier. He wrote of the almost “total darkness of paper pen and ink, and the “crooked broken scattered and imperfect language.”[15](javascript:popup(‘notes#n-15’)😉 Toward the end of his life, he rejoiced that for three years he had been able to keep several clerks in constant employ to accompany him “everywhere” and record what he said and did.[16](javascript:popup(‘notes#n-16’)😉 But however efficient they may have been, they were unable to fully preserve one essential ingredient in their work that would have been in Joseph’s own writings his own personality. One notes, for example, a marked shift in style between two entries in his “Diary,” the first written by the Prophet himself and the other written by his clerk Willard Richards:
September 23 [1835] This day Joseph Smith, Jr. was at home writing blessings for most beloved brotheren. I have been hindered by a multitude of visitors but the has blessed our souls this day. May God grant to continue his mercies unto my house, this night for Christ sake. This day my Soul has desired the salvation of Brother Ezra Thayr. Also Brother Noah Packard came to my house and let the Chappel Committee have one thousand dollers, by loan, for the building the house of the Lord. Oh may God bless him with an hundred fold, even the things of the earth, for this ritious act. My head is fuIl of desire to day, to be blessed of the God of Abraham with prosperity, until I will be able to pay all my debts; for it is the delight of my soul to be honest. O Lord that thou knowest right well! Help me and I will give to the poor. April 17 [1843] Monday. Green grass begins to be seen. Walked out in the city with Clayton. Called on brother Taylor. Handed him the letter purporting to be from the Attorney Gen. of the U. States and gave him instruction about it. Looked at several lots. Called at Samuel Bennets to make arrangements to leave the house above the old burying ground. Returned home. Had conversation with Erastus Snow. Received 50 gold sovereigns of P. P. Pratt for the temple.
Although both entries accurately report Joseph Smith’s activities for the days indicated, the reader comes away with very different perceptions of his personality. But because editorial procedures in his day did not require the precise definition of authorship, the distinction was lost when his diaries were incorporated into his History.” (“The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith”, edited by Dean C. Jessee)
 
Hey all, Boy when Your bad your bad, I guess that the mormon churchs litergy being patterened after masonic rituals was just another gift of the angel. 33 degrees in heaven and no blacks allowed like the masons just a coincedence. Oh well I guess they didnt add to scripture either, which would make them heretics and one thing we dont need are more heretics. I stand by what I said. Check out William Whalens book on mormons. I still don`t see why any thinking person would want to dirty his mind with this garbage. God was flesh and blood and had sex with Mary to get Jesus in the world. There are three persons on the planet Kolob God the father Jesus, and the Holy spirit If you are a good mormon and get all the degrees you can go to a planet in the future and be the Jesus for that planet. So go ahead become a god in your own rite. Be a mormon. His will be done. Garland
 
ParkerD said:
Jerusha,
Statistics show whatever the data output is from the data (name removed by moderator)ut.
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I am sure they are quite well aware of the statement “garbage in, garbage out”. And as Rebecca has documented, writings ascribed to JS are clearly not consistent because of editorial work by his scribes. The man was barely literate, and may have had some learning problems. His sense of inferiority may have driven him to do what he did.

I fully agree with the critics of the study, who say that a lot more possibilities ought to be plugged into the methodology.

One must start with hypotheses, and prove or disprove them. This is the methodology of science. Your criticism that they only included two works without any hypothetical framework, is a criticism of the scientific method itself.

Actually, Longfellow did better than Barlow. If the methodology is actually very strong, they may have taken from Henry and Jane Schoolcraft, who were productive at the time the BOM was written. Longfellow, in turn, took from the Schoolcrafts’ work. Henry acknowledged this in defense of Longfellow.
 
As I suggested earlier, get your hands on “Under the Banner of Heaven” authored by Jon Krakauer, the same gentleman who wrote “Into Thin Air.” Under the Banner of Heaven is a non-fiction book which chronicles the early days of Joseph Smith and all the shenanigans he got himself into, especially fraudulent activities which resulted in a lawsuit filed against him by the U.S. government. It continues to follow his life as he concocted all the preposterous events leading up to founding of his church. It is a worthwhile read for those interested in learning more about what transpired in those early days. There are some chapters which have to do with the FLDS which should be disregarded, however. Personally, as I went from one chapter to the next, I was more and more astounded by what I read. I found Krakauer to be completely objective in his presentation. It’s a real eye-opener to say the least.
 
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