M
mfbukowski
Guest
bukovina
- Status
D
dianaiad
Guest
Indeed there is great confusion. Since you were so kind as to repost Chris’ remarks, you can see from the first sentence that he referred to the entire bible, not simply the NT. That he used, as examples, books FROM the NT did not mean that he was referring only to the NT, especially since he specifically said “bible” in the first sentence, not “New Testament.” As well, given that he DID include the entire bible in that first sentence, and then followed it up with the claim that the bible took men thousands of years to write, it is not reasonable to assume that he was referring only to the NT in the absence of any claim by him that he was indeed referring to the NT.I can see there is **great confusion. ** Let me attempt to break it down.
You claim I said St. Jerome wrote the NT (and then gave me the definition of author) - I did not.
You claim that I assume he wrote it and was not the translator - I did not.
You said I give more credit for the actual content than for being a really good translator - I did not.
Obviously Diana, the reason for bringing up St. Jerome and providing the commentary from the Introduction to the Douay-Rheims Bible online was for one purpose:
To show that if St. Jerome was translating the New Testament in the **years 342-420, **obviously **thousands of years had not passed **from the time of Jesus to the time of St. Jerome’s translations.
So yes, there is confusion. I believe that it is on your part, assuming that Chris was claiming that the New Testament took thousands of years to write. There is nothing in his post that would cause someone to think that this was his claim, y’know, especially since the word he used in the first sentence was “bible,” not “New Testament.”
There is also this: Mormons are all quite aware that the NT was written over a space of less than a hundred years. It is also a part of LDS thought that the 'Stick of Judah" refers to the bible as a whole, both OT and NT. Chris’s use of NT books as examples do not mean that he was referring only to the NT–as can clearly be seen in the context.
I can see what the problem is…you did indeed think he was referring only to the NT. However, his post clearly shows that he was referring to the entire work.
L
lax16
Guest
So you (chris, Mormons) are saying that it took **thousands of years **to write all of the Bible; the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament?
Also they were originally individual books?
D
dianaiad
Guest
Uh…
Yeah, actually.
From the Pentateuch (which in itself is a collection of books, yes?) to Malachi, each author and prophet wrote his piece. David wrote some. Solomon wrote some; they didn’t all pick up this giant tome and continue writing where the last guy left off, y’know. Those writings were all gathered together…compiled into volumes. Some were compiled earlier than others; in one sense we actually (as in the Pentateuch) have a gathering of compilations. Finally, though, there is a REASON that the OT 'books" are CALLED 'books," and not ‘chapters.’
The NT is organized, not according to chronology, but according to type; the gospels first, then Acts, then the letters, then the Book of Revelation. Individual works compiled logically into a larger collection.
So…are you claiming something else? If so, you have just officially put me square into ‘flurmuggled’ land, and that honestly doesn’t happen all that often!
M
mjf001
Guest
Please explain how the BoM is analagous to the Bible. Please include the part where it was found on Gold Plates that no longer exist for a single person to examine. While you’re at it, maybe you’d like to try answering my other question I asked earlier related to this.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
I was trying to think of why this is…I can only think it has something to do with their notion that the Creation narratives in Genesis took place c.6000 BC. But I’m not sure what they think the origins of Genesis are.At any rate, there are many areas of religious history where LDS replace historic fact with belief.
D
dianaiad
Guest
I took you off of ignore for this post, and for any answer you might make to it. (Edited) I would like to ask you…are you of the opinion that the OT was written by one person just before Christ came along? Who do you think wrote it?
At any rate, there are many areas of religious history where LDS replace historic fact with belief.
As well, just how old do you think the earth actually is, and how many years are reflected in the OT?
I am truly bemused here…I feel like I’m walking into a whole new world of 'say, what?" as if my understanding of Catholic thought is entirely off in this area. I have been assuming that Catholics believed as we do about this topic; that the Pentateuch, Proverbs, the books of Job, Isaiah and Malachi as well as the Song of Songs and all the other books in the OT were written by different people over many hundreds and thousands (at least three thousand, if not more) of years, and these works were protected and handed down through the generations to Christ.
Am I wrong? If so, what IS the belief regarding the authorship of the OT? You have me intensely curious.
by the way, just to remark upon your continued claim that Mormons are all strict creationists, I need to remind you that we are not. SOME are, but the church itself has no official stand on the matter one way or the other, and the vast majority of us run the gamut between strict creationism and a belief in full blown natural (if divinely guided) evolution. Since BYU has one of the nation’s best evolutionary biology departments in the nation, (Edited)
Stephen168
New member
Do Mormons believe the events of Genesis took place 6000BC or the Book of Genesis was written 6000BC?
At any rate, there are many areas of religious history where LDS replace historic fact with belief.
P
pinay
Guest
Neither.
“The [LDS] Church itself has no philosophy about the modus operandi employed by the Lord in His creation of the world.” - Joseph Fielding Smith, April 1911
and
“Our religion is not hostile to real science. That which is demonstrated, we accept with joy; but vain philosophy, human theory and mere speculations of men, we do not accept nor do we adopt anything contrary to divine revelation or to good common sense. But everything that tends to right conduct, that harmonizes with sound morality and increases faith in Deity, finds favor with us no matter where it may be found.” - First Presidency, Dec 1910
So, with those in mind, it could all have occured in 6000BC, or it could have all occured between 200,000BC through 6000BC or whatever science discovers. LDS do not necessarily believe that the earth was made into its current form in 6 literal days.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
(Edited)
I’d say this is the real reason you deemed me worthy of your attentions.
By the way, LDS are taught that 1 day is 1000 years and that the earth will exist for 6 days, on which the 7th day is a day of rest (aka the millenium). But nice try.
ps: books were developed by the Romans, c. the first century AD. Hebrew writing developed in the late 2nd to early 1st millenia BC. The oldest texts of the Torah are from the 10th century BC. The current was solidified in the 6th to 5th century BC…hardly “thousands of years”. All the texts of the NT were written in the first 120 years following Christ’s death and resurrection.
But no Mormon has yet to explain this “thousands of years” to write the Bible.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
(Edited) Regarding LDS teachings, this should help clarify.
D&C 77
6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?
A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the **seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.
**
12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the trumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.
D&C 77
6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?
A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the **seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.
**
12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the trumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.
P
ParkerD
Guest
To the general reader, for clarification:
(Note: usual LDS descriptions say the Creation itself took thousands or millions of years).
B.C. SEQUENCE OF EVENTS IN THE DAYS OF THE EARLY PATRIARCHS
4000 BC – Fall of Adam. (Those desiring calculated dates on these events may wish to consult published chronologies.)
Ministry of Enoch.
Ministry of Noah; the Flood.
Tower of Babel.
Ministry of Melchizedek.
Death of Noah (Gen. 9: 28).
Birth of Abram. In the days of Abram we meet with the names of Chedorlaomer, king of Elam, and Amraphel, king of Shinar. Egypt was manifestly a powerful kingdom before and during the patriarchal times, but the early annals of Egypt as they have come down to us help us to few synchronisms that can be relied on.
Birth of Isaac.
Birth of Jacob.
Birth of Joseph.
Joseph sold into Egypt (Gen. 37: 2).
Joseph stands before Pharaoh (Gen. 41: 46).
Jacob and his family go down to Egypt.
Death of Jacob.
Death of Joseph.
Birth of Moses.
The Exodus when Moses was 80 years old.
Death (translation) of Moses.
Death of Joshua.
After the death of Joshua was the period of the Judges, of whom the first was Othniel and the last Samuel, but the arrangement and dates of the rest are very uncertain. The commencement of the Assyrian empire appears to have been somewhere in the period of the Judges, but much of the chronological data preserved in Assyrian tablets is of a fabulous character.
In this section the dates are ascertained with more accuracy, help being derived from synchronisms with profane history, which become more numerous with every succeeding century.
B.C. THE UNDIVIDED KINGDOM PERSONS AND EVENTS OF EXTERNAL HISTORY
1095 BC – Commencement of Saul’s reign. Samuel lives for a great part of Saul’s reign. Nahash, king of Ammon. Tiglath-pilesar I, king of Assyria. Agag, king of Amalek. Achish, king of Gath.
1063 BC – David anointed by Samuel.
Source: LDS King James Bible Dictionary, (availiable online at lds.org)
(Note also that LDS believe that Enoch wrote records as did Abraham, and that Moses may have had written records which may have been sources for some of the early patriarch history he recorded and which became compiled into Genesis.)
(Note: usual LDS descriptions say the Creation itself took thousands or millions of years).
B.C. SEQUENCE OF EVENTS IN THE DAYS OF THE EARLY PATRIARCHS
4000 BC – Fall of Adam. (Those desiring calculated dates on these events may wish to consult published chronologies.)
Ministry of Enoch.
Ministry of Noah; the Flood.
Tower of Babel.
Ministry of Melchizedek.
Death of Noah (Gen. 9: 28).
Birth of Abram. In the days of Abram we meet with the names of Chedorlaomer, king of Elam, and Amraphel, king of Shinar. Egypt was manifestly a powerful kingdom before and during the patriarchal times, but the early annals of Egypt as they have come down to us help us to few synchronisms that can be relied on.
Birth of Isaac.
Birth of Jacob.
Birth of Joseph.
Joseph sold into Egypt (Gen. 37: 2).
Joseph stands before Pharaoh (Gen. 41: 46).
Jacob and his family go down to Egypt.
Death of Jacob.
Death of Joseph.
Birth of Moses.
The Exodus when Moses was 80 years old.
Death (translation) of Moses.
Death of Joshua.
After the death of Joshua was the period of the Judges, of whom the first was Othniel and the last Samuel, but the arrangement and dates of the rest are very uncertain. The commencement of the Assyrian empire appears to have been somewhere in the period of the Judges, but much of the chronological data preserved in Assyrian tablets is of a fabulous character.
In this section the dates are ascertained with more accuracy, help being derived from synchronisms with profane history, which become more numerous with every succeeding century.
B.C. THE UNDIVIDED KINGDOM PERSONS AND EVENTS OF EXTERNAL HISTORY
1095 BC – Commencement of Saul’s reign. Samuel lives for a great part of Saul’s reign. Nahash, king of Ammon. Tiglath-pilesar I, king of Assyria. Agag, king of Amalek. Achish, king of Gath.
1063 BC – David anointed by Samuel.
Source: LDS King James Bible Dictionary, (availiable online at lds.org)
(Note also that LDS believe that Enoch wrote records as did Abraham, and that Moses may have had written records which may have been sources for some of the early patriarch history he recorded and which became compiled into Genesis.)
P
pinay
Guest
Hello Rebecca,
What is your opinion on where the stories came from before they got written into the Torah around 10BC?
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
P
pinay
Guest
Oh sorry! Okay. Thanks for the clarification.
L
lax16
Guest
Sorry to take so long to respond. I have been busy with family (I do have a life outside of CAF
). Also, the answer to this question has taken hours of research time. I have learned a lot about a very complicated subject.Unlike Mormons and Catholics, Jewish studies are a bit difficult to pin down. I am going to pass on what I learned about the writing of the Hebrew Bible.
According to the Jewish Virtual Library: Abraham lived for 175 years between the years 1813 BCE - 1638 BCE.
According to a very interesting on-line Hebrew Bible study course from Yale:
oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/introduction-to-the-old-testament-hebrew-bible/content/class-sessions
“So, the Bible is this assemblage of books and writings dating **from approximately 1000 **BCE–we’re going to hear very diverse opinions about how far back this stuff dates–down to the second century: the last book within the Hebrew Bible was written in the 160s BCE. Some of these books which we think are roughly from a certain date, **they will **contain narrative snippets or legal materials or oral traditions that may even date back or stretch back further in time, and they were perhaps **transmitted orally **and then ended up in these written forms. The Bible is written largely in Hebrew, hence the name Hebrew Bible. There are a few passages in Aramaic.”
From the Jewish Virtual Library about The Dead Sea Scrolls:
Ancient Hebrew scrolls accidentally discovered in 1947 by a Bedouin boy have kindled popular enthusiasm as well as serious scholarly interest over the past half century. The source of this excitement is what these Dead Sea Scrolls reveal about the history of the Second Temple period (520 B.C.E.-70 C.E.), particularly from the second century B.C.E. until the destruction of the Second Temple in** 70 C.E.-**a time of crucial developments in the crystallization of the monotheistic religions.
Today scholarly opinion regarding the time span and background of the Dead Sea Scrolls is anchored in historical, paleographic, and linguistic evidence, corroborated firmly by carbon 14-datings. **Some manuscripts were written and copied in the third century B.C.E., **but the bulk of the material, particularly the texts that reflect on a sectarian community, **are originals or copies from the first century B.C.E.; **a number of texts date from as late as the years preceding the destruction of the site in 68 C.E. at the hands of the Roman legions.
L
lax16
Guest
The reason it was difficult to answer the question re: when the Old Testament was written is that there is no clear-cut answer.
There is Jewish oral tradition. There is Moses who began the written period of Hebrew text. There is the fact that Jewish teachings put Abraham living 175 years showing that we are not sure if the Bible is to be taken literally. And there is the introduction, more recently, of archaelogical artifacts that are adding a new perspective to the timeline of the Hebrew Bible.
As a result, one cannot come up with an exact date. However, based on everything I have read, it did not take thousands of years to write the bible.
Remember, the word write indicates authorship as Diana pointed out.
Now, one can ask the question “How long did it take for Judaism and Christianity to evolve?” If chris was referring to that, it would possibly cover about 2,000 years from the beginning of Judaism to the beginning of Christianity.
There again,** it is not correct to say **(as chris did) **that the Bible took thousands of ****years to **write.
There is Jewish oral tradition. There is Moses who began the written period of Hebrew text. There is the fact that Jewish teachings put Abraham living 175 years showing that we are not sure if the Bible is to be taken literally. And there is the introduction, more recently, of archaelogical artifacts that are adding a new perspective to the timeline of the Hebrew Bible.
As a result, one cannot come up with an exact date. However, based on everything I have read, it did not take thousands of years to write the bible.
Remember, the word write indicates authorship as Diana pointed out.
Now, one can ask the question “How long did it take for Judaism and Christianity to evolve?” If chris was referring to that, it would possibly cover about 2,000 years from the beginning of Judaism to the beginning of Christianity.
There again,** it is not correct to say **(as chris did) **that the Bible took thousands of ****years to **write.
D
dianaiad
Guest
Problem, that.
If, as you seem to agree with me, ‘write’ equals ‘authorship,’ then ‘authorship’ refers also to the oral versions. For instance, we all are aware that Homer ( or rather, the group of authors that may or may not be grouped together as being Homer…the originators of the poems, anyway…) wrote the Illiad and the Odyssey. Those poems have been around since the 8th century BC, and THAT IS WHEN THEY WERE CONSIDERED TO HAVE BEEN WRITTEN, even though the poems never saw ink and parchment (or papyrus, whatever) until the 3rd Century BC. Nobody really knows, or CARES, who first put the poems into readable form; the author is Homer, and the works were authored nearly five hundred years before they were actually written.
As I have been constantly told regarding Sacred Tradition in CAtholicism, (and this is ironic, given my argument THERE! ) it is ‘oral tradition’ that counts. How many people have told me that the written accounts of that oral tradition do not matter except to tell us what that oral tradition actually is? In fact, oral tradition doesn’t begin with the written account. In a very real sense, it ENDS there. The work involved was not created upon writing it down; it was simply frozen there. the actual authorship, the creation, happened in the oral stage.
So perhaps the definition needs to be clarified here. when WE (Mormons, that is,) speak of ‘writing’ or ‘authorship,’ we speak of the actual creation of the text…or rather, the creation of what will eventually BE the text. The work itself, whether it is written down immediately or not.
As you are aware from you own Sacred, oral tradition, the process of creation doesn’t begin with the pen. So when we say that the bible took thousands of years to write…well, it took thousands of years to create; to author; to form the stories and the lessons.
M
Michael_Francis
Guest
**The discussions between Mormons and Catholics here at CAF have devolved into some of the worst uncharitableness I have ever seen and I intend to stop it and get all you people dialoging like adults or not posting at all, regardless of religion.
Our rules and guidelines are very clear and, in general, CAF maintains a high standard for civil and charitable discussion and debate which I expect from every member here. Forum Rules & Guidelines**
**
There will be no tolerance of “tit for tat” lack of charity, period.
Simple, rational, and verifiable facts should suffice to support one’s arguments and there should be no personal comments that call anyone out.
The discussions between Catholics and Mormons in NCR have gotten out of hand and I expect that to change for the better and intend to use every moderation tool at my disposal to insure it.
Anyone, regardless of religion, who does not post accordingly will hear from the moderation staff about it.
Nothing good comes from the current style of interaction.
This is addressed to everyone active in these discussions and no one individually. If the shoe fits (even a little bit!), then wear it.
Very sincerely,**
Our rules and guidelines are very clear and, in general, CAF maintains a high standard for civil and charitable discussion and debate which I expect from every member here. Forum Rules & Guidelines**
**
There will be no tolerance of “tit for tat” lack of charity, period.
Simple, rational, and verifiable facts should suffice to support one’s arguments and there should be no personal comments that call anyone out.
The discussions between Catholics and Mormons in NCR have gotten out of hand and I expect that to change for the better and intend to use every moderation tool at my disposal to insure it.
Anyone, regardless of religion, who does not post accordingly will hear from the moderation staff about it.
Nothing good comes from the current style of interaction.
This is addressed to everyone active in these discussions and no one individually. If the shoe fits (even a little bit!), then wear it.
Very sincerely,**
A
Answersplease
Guest
- Status