The Book of Mormon

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RebeccaJ said:
Horses went extinct in the Americas 12,000 years ago, long before the BoM period setting. Horses were reintroduced by Europeans. The Mormon apologetic on this is that Smith used an English word to translate a word that really meant tapirs.

Tapirback's Homepage - Tapirs, Wildlife Gifts and more

Of course, this is just piling more make believe on top of make believe, as the original language documents of “reformed Egyptian” don’t exist. So there’s no way to verify Smith’s translation. Not to mention verifying he actually had golden plates.

This then brings up the issue of translation mistakes. If you go with the fantasy that the golden plates actually existed for a moment, how many translation mistakes did Smith make, and how would you verify the translation today?
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Can you imagine charging into battle in a chariot pulled by something that looks like a pig?

LOL!

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
TheIrishman said:
I was waiting for someone to bring this up, i had that same problem when told about this also. I asked how someone could know that Joseph meant Tapir and now horse when we have no documents of reformed egyptian to base it off of. I think it’s just an attempt to make sense of something that doesn’t make sense.
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When I was LDS, I wondered how an all-knowing god could be so lame that he couldn’t reveal to Joseph Smith the word for “tapir”. Apparently the LDS god revealed to Joseph Smith the names for Kolob, Kokobeam and many other words that Joseph didn’t know beforehand. So why is the LDS god so lame that he can’t get the words for tapir or deer right, and let Joseph translate it as “horse”?

After all, the descriptions of the translation of the BoM depict Joseph looking into his hat and seeing the English word on his seer-stone, and that he couldn’t proceed to the next word until his scribe wrote down the correct word and read it back to Joseph.

Either this sworn testimony is a complete fabrication, or the Mormon god is a very poor translator.

What it boils down to is that Joseph (or whoever wrote the BoM - Sydney Rigdon is my bet) did not know the history of the horse in the Americas and so invented the story of the horse being in the Americas from 600 BC to 421 AD.

Think about it.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
TheIrishman said:
She told me there was no way of leaving the LDS church without explaining how the Book of Mormon came into existence. .
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If this is the “exit” requirements for leaving the LDS, which is preposterous in of itself when you think of it… Jesus never spoke of exit exams on leaving anything… but, back to my point if this is the way to “get out” then they would set something impossible to achieve to keep people from leaving correct? Does this not sound more like a cult tactic? People often speak of free will when addressing something grievous. That is not always the case. You have free will to walk away from this religious manipulation. You don’t have anything to prove to anyone except for Christ, and that sounds like it has already been done.

Relax, reward yourself, and move on. We welcome you to our family, a family in which you are free to choose to stay in or leave without having to prove anything. There is only one judge here really.
 
TheIrishman said:
She told me there was no way of leaving the LDS church without explaining how the Book of Mormon came into existence.
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This reminds me, as I’m sure it does others, of Elder Holland’s talk a few years ago about (off the top of my head) how people that leave must go around (did he use the word “crawl”?) the Book of Mormon.
 
iepuras said:
Glad to hear that you are landing on your feet and moving into the next phase of your journey. Also good luck with the parents. I’m praying for you.

My parents never confronted me on the Book of Mormon. My stake president did. Our SP and EQP showed up on our doorstep one fine Sunday and one of the arguments the SP used to try to convince us to come back was that the BOM was inspired by God. He asked, “Didn’t you feel the Spirit when you read the BOM?” He also tried to argue that if the BOM is the word of God, then JS is a prophet.

The reality is that the truthfulness of the BOM (and all of Mormonism for that matter) stands or falls on the trustworthiness of Joseph Smith. JS is not trustworthy because the BOM is “true”. Of course there is some truth in the BOM. Parts are copied straight out of the KJV of the Bible! It doesn’t matter how much truth there is in the BOM because the source is corrupt.

What did it for me is that Joseph Smith stole the wives of other men. God would never command a prophet to steal another man’s wife. The treasure seeking and fraud also deem JS to be untrustworthy.

Either Joseph Smith was a prophet of God or he was a very bad man. I think the evidence shows that he was a very bad man.
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Thank you! yeah my dad’s a bishop in the home ward so i guess thats why i’m getting hammered a little. All of my friends have accepted it and are still going to be my friends so luckily i won’t have to find new ones and be completely isolated.

I think what bothers me the most about Joseph Smith is the wife swapping also, no prophet of God would be commanded to partake of such a practice. Also the whole “martydom” thing kinda peeves me. I took an early christian history class and learned about true martyr’s and then re-read Joseph Smith’s account and found what really went down. I just can’t see a prophet of God acting the way Joseph Smith did so i can’t imagine Joseph Smith writing an inspired work.
 
PaulDupre1 said:
When I was LDS, I wondered how an all-knowing god could be so lame that he couldn’t reveal to Joseph Smith the word for “tapir”. Apparently the LDS god revealed to Joseph Smith the names for Kolob, Kokobeam and many other words that Joseph didn’t know beforehand. So why is the LDS god so lame that he can’t get the words for tapir or deer right, and let Joseph translate it as “horse”?
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After all, the descriptions of the translation of the BoM depict Joseph looking into his hat and seeing the English word on his seer-stone, and that he couldn’t proceed to the next word until his scribe wrote down the correct word and read it back to Joseph.
**
Either this sworn testimony is a complete fabrication, or the Mormon god is a very poor translator.

What it boils down to is that Joseph (or whoever wrote the BoM - Sydney Rigdon is my bet) did not know the history of the horse in the Americas and so invented the story of the horse being in the Americas from 600 BC to 421 AD.

Think about it.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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Thought about it and you bring up a very excellent point. How could God not tell Joseph what a Tapir was but tell him about Kolab and celestial glories and other things. Again i feel like that apology was a weak attempt at trying to make sense of something that didn’t make sense. Like most of the BoM. However, i do like TexanKnight’s idea of having them prove it is true with substantial evidence rather than me having to disprove a negative.

Thank you for your insight, i will most likely be using it in my rebuttal.
 
esieffe said:
If this is the “exit” requirements for leaving the LDS, which is preposterous in of itself when you think of it… Jesus never spoke of exit exams on leaving anything… but, back to my point if this is the way to “get out” then they would set something impossible to achieve to keep people from leaving correct? Does this not sound more like a cult tactic? People often speak of free will when addressing something grievous. That is not always the case. You have free will to walk away from this religious manipulation. You don’t have anything to prove to anyone except for Christ, and that sounds like it has already been done.

Relax, reward yourself, and move on. We welcome you to our family, a family in which you are free to choose to stay in or leave without having to prove anything. There is only one judge here really.
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This isn’t just for me though, I want my parent’s to realize the greater good here also and think about their own religion and question it. It pains me to know that the LDS church is false but it hurts me even more to see family i love be tangled in it. So i’m hoping to either say something or do something that will get them thinking about the Catholic Church in a positive way and also question their faith in the LDS church.

But thank you for the reminder that the only person i have to prove anything to is Christ, and i’m taking steps to doing that.

God Bless
 
LivingWaters7 said:
This reminds me, as I’m sure it does others, of Elder Holland’s talk a few years ago about (off the top of my head) how people that leave must go around (did he use the word “crawl”?) the Book of Mormon.
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This crossed my mind the second it came up! Lol and i think i made it worse because i think i mentioned Solomon Spaulding at one point 😃 My folks will probably want me to watch it tomorrow night when i see them again.
 
TheIrishman said:
This isn’t just for me though, I want my parent’s to realize the greater good here also and think about their own religion and question it. It pains me to know that the LDS church is false but it hurts me even more to see family i love be tangled in it. So i’m hoping to either say something or do something that will get them thinking about the Catholic Church in a positive way and also question their faith in the LDS church.

But thank you for the reminder that the only person i have to prove anything to is Christ, and i’m taking steps to doing that.

God Bless
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I admire your dedication to family. I hope you are able to lead them out of error. I feel comforted however knowing that you are on the right path, and helping your parents is a noble thing.
 
TexanKnight said:
the idea of making you prove it is false is bad form. You cannot prove a negative. And they cannot prove it is real. All they will say is “We prayed about and the Spirit told us it is true”.

That is a fallacious argument because we can go to any church and they can say they prayed and the Spirit confirmed it for them. If they claim it is a historical book, they need to prove it.
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Exactly! Right on TexanKnight!
 
iepuras said:
Glad to hear that you are landing on your feet and moving into the next phase of your journey. Also good luck with the parents. I’m praying for you.

My parents never confronted me on the Book of Mormon. My stake president did. Our SP and EQP showed up on our doorstep one fine Sunday and one of the arguments the SP used to try to convince us to come back was that the BOM was inspired by God. He asked, “Didn’t you feel the Spirit when you read the BOM?” He also tried to argue that if the BOM is the word of God, then JS is a prophet.

The reality is that the truthfulness of the BOM (and all of Mormonism for that matter) stands or falls on the trustworthiness of Joseph Smith. JS is not trustworthy because the BOM is “true”. Of course there is some truth in the BOM. Parts are copied straight out of the KJV of the Bible! It doesn’t matter how much truth there is in the BOM because the source is corrupt.

What did it for me is that Joseph Smith stole the wives of other men. God would never command a prophet to steal another man’s wife. The treasure seeking and fraud also deem JS to be untrustworthy.

Either Joseph Smith was a prophet of God or he was a very bad man. I think the evidence shows that he was a very bad man.
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JS is NO prophet…you can take that to the bank! He is a FRAUD!
 
esieffe said:
I admire your dedication to family. I hope you are able to lead them out of error. I feel comforted however knowing that you are on the right path, and helping your parents is a noble thing.
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Exactly. Also, I agree with those who say that they must prove it true, not you prove it false (something you cannot logically do).

You’re in my prayers OP! 🙂
 
LivingWaters7 said:
This reminds me, as I’m sure it does others, of Elder Holland’s talk a few years ago about (off the top of my head) how people that leave must go around (did he use the word “crawl”?) the Book of Mormon.
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I watched that talk.

“If anyone is foolish enough, or misled enough, to reject 531 pages of a heretofore unknown text, teeming with literary and Semitic complexity, without honestly attempting to account for the origin of those pages somehow, especially without accounting for their powerful witness of Jesus Christ and the profound spiritual impact that witness has had on what is now tens of millions of readers, if that’s the case then such persons, elect or otherwise, have been deceived. And if they leave this church they must do so by crawling over, or under, or around the Book of Mormon to make their exit.”

The problem is, we CAN account for the origin of the BOOK. He cannot account for all the issues heretofore brought up. I have listened to his talks. His approach is to try to make you feel foolish for not believing and so you do not ask your questions to avoid appearing foolish.

Just ask Holland to get his other pals to agree to excavate Cumorah.
 
I have never been able to find any instance in any supposed sermon of Joseph Smith where he actually used the Book of Mormon in his preaching. I think it is pretty strange that someone who claims to have received a book from an angel never seemed to have actually thought it was worth using it to teach anything. I suspect that is because Joseph Smith actually knew the book wasn’t from God, but that it was his own creation or more likely that of Sidney Rigdon.
 
TexanKnight said:
I watched that talk.

“If anyone is foolish enough, or misled enough, to reject 531 pages of a heretofore unknown text, teeming with literary and Semitic complexity, without honestly attempting to account for the origin of those pages somehow, especially without accounting for their powerful witness of Jesus Christ and the profound spiritual impact that witness has had on what is now tens of millions of readers, if that’s the case then such persons, elect or otherwise, have been deceived. And if they leave this church they must do so by crawling over, or under, or around the Book of Mormon to make their exit.”

The problem is, we CAN account for the origin of the BOOK. He cannot account for all the issues heretofore brought up. I have listened to his talks. His approach is to try to make you feel foolish for not believing and so you do not ask your questions to avoid appearing foolish.

Just ask Holland to get his other pals to agree to excavate Cumorah.
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This talk was meant to help the church hold onto already believing Mormons. It seems to have done its work fairly well.
 
TexanKnight said:
maybe…but the list of folks leaving or going inactive is growing a lot
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Unfortunately, there are always people being born and being baptized to replace those who are leaving. And I must admit that I am the only person in my area that I know of who has left the LDS Church. The people who were active when I was active are still active. My estimate is that more than two thirds of the children born in active Mormon households tend to remain active as they grow older.
 
JamesCollins said:
Unfortunately, there are always people being born and being baptized to replace those who are leaving. And I must admit that I am the only person in my area that I know of who has left the LDS Church. The people who were active when I was active are still active. My estimate is that more than two thirds of the children born in active Mormon households tend to remain active as they grow older.
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Perhaps. But even those newly baptized are baptized under false pretenses as they are not told the truth about doctrine, etc. And once they find out, they tend to leave. It is a huge problem with the lds Church
 
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