The Book Which is Most being read:Qur'an

[Reuben_J]

Just some good will of Muslims to prove the miracle of prophet. Even the Pagans who had seen the miracle with thier eyes said that “this is an obvious sorcery”! I think there is no need to prove a miracle by science because the miracles cannot be explained by science and logic. You believe or not. But there are more than 1000 miracles of Muhammad which were reported. Some kinds are about foods and some about water etc.

I think what you say is contrary to what most Muslims believe. Only the Quran is the word of Allah and therefore its content is verified to be true. Any others are just hearsay or accepted traditions but their veracities are not as strong as the Quran. Therefore you are referring to something which are not necessarily the guaranteed belief as true by the standard of the Quran. In other word, you cannot use that argument to back the truth of your assertion.

 

[Reuben_J]

1-The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two].

In 2010 a NASA Lunar Science Institute (NLSI) staff scientist, named Brad Bailey, said “No current scientific evidence reports that the Moon was split into two (or more) parts and then reassembled at any point in the past.”

 

[Reuben_J]

Okay. Muslims are used to think Bible just as the NT.

My friend, you do realize that they (Muslims) were factually wrong there. Now when you are wrong factually, you know that your source in never that trustworthy.

Likewise, there are some factual errors stated or reported in the Quran about the belief of other religions not of Islam. You can twist and turn and justify that error after it is being pointed out to you, but the fact remain an error is an error. If you are not a Muslim, you would question, how could the word of God coming out of God’s mouth did not know what it was talking about or reported wrongly?

 

[Reuben_J]

Okay. Muslims are used to think Bible just as the NT.

And the Injil was just part of the NT.

 

[AnthonyJ]

I have heard that the Bible is the #1 bestseller every year.

 

[TheAtheist]

And Reuben has finally arrived.

Well, now that hasantas sparing partner has shown up, this thread will probably go the way most others do…

 

[Reuben_J]

And Reuben has finally arrived.

Well, now that hasantas sparing partner has shown up, this thread will probably go the way most others do…

I have gone that roads a few times with Muslims. I do not wish to be argumentative. I just pointed out a particular glaring misunderstanding on his part probably not that fatal for this thread. I will leave it here and you all still can go on nicely.

 

[TheAtheist]

I have gone that roads a few times with Muslims. I do not wish to be argumentative. I just pointed out a particular glaring misunderstanding on his part probably not that fatal for this thread. I will leave it here and you all still can go on nicely.

Oh no - don’t take what I said to be a criticism Reuben. I’ve watched many of the debates you’ve had over the years on the board with folks regarding the Muslim faith, some with hasantas actually.

All i’m pointing out is that there is a kind of…shall we say… natural rhythm to these type of threads from their “birth” to their “death.”

The only thing that makes this particular iteration a little odd, is that I haven’t seen the Baha’i-in-residence chime in yet… Someone from that group usually does on threads regarding Islam or the Koran…

Ah well. _ Carry on and I’ll return to the peanut gallery.

 

[Reuben_J]

Injil is the revelation which came to Jesus. We do not mean the Torah.

Indeed the Injil is spoken of in the Quran.

However this is a big poser in the light of history and historical evidence.

No book purported to be written by Jesus had ever been referred to much less exist. The religion, Christianity, which based its belief in the person of Jesus, has the Gospel, Injil to the Quran, written by the apostles.

That comes to reasons because Jesus’ teaching was not in words only but in his very person, his life, birth, death and resurrection.

By the 7th century when Mohammad started receiving his revelations, the Gospels had been in existence for three hundreds years already. They must be what the Quran referred to, when it said that the people of the book to refer to their own books when in doubt.

In any case, we know nothing whatsoever about book being written by Jesus about his revelation unless that book or books rather, were the Gospels which were not written by him but by his apostles.

The contents of the existing Gospels are quite an embarrassment to the Quran because of the contradiction. The death of Jesus and some of his teachings for example.

Muslims can say that the Bible in its existing condition is a corrupt rendition of the supposedly original. Again somewhat a poser there. What Bible/Injil/book that the Quran wanted the ‘people of the book’ to refer to when in doubt in the 7th century.

It is really mind boggling how we get to hear the explanation would be.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Muslims believe that the original of Bible is from God(revelation). And Bible(Injil) is mentioned many times in Qur’an to be true scripture from God.

Can you explain what this “original Bible” is? Please

 

[JimmyDFG]

I had seen some photos of moon which point that split.

If you seen photos then who did that “miracle”? Or would still be considered a miracle if it happen other times…because if you seen photos than it must be a recurring event.

 

[arthra]

As a Baha’i I accept the Qur’an as a revelation from God through His Prophet Muhammad… We identify the Qur’an as an authentic repository of the Word of God… along with the Baha’i Writings.

We had a class studying the Qur’an at our Baha’i Center over a year ago and we all seemed to derive a lot from it.

The Bible is also inspired Holy Scripture…

Abdul-Baha also wrote of the Bible:

*“THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.”
*
'Abdu’l-Bahá Abbas. *
(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 17)

 

[hasantas]

Can you explain what this “original Bible” is? Please

The exact word of revelation which was taught to Jesus by Father. Gospels are writings of writers who had written the part of revelation which they could remember later by narrative way.

 

[hasantas]

I guess I am just confused because you said:
“It was a miracle to demonstrate that He was messenger of God. that case was for a short time. I had seen some photos of moon which point that split.”

I assumed that your quote meant that you have photos or some sort of proof that this miracle occurred.

Prophet Muhammad performed that miracle for some Pagans to demostrate that He was messenger of God. But pagans did not beleive although they saw the miracle by own eyes and they said “that is a certain fascination”. I cannot write orderly because of poor English and I see that make it hard. Sorry.

And the photos! I just said some Muslims take photos from NASA which show a mark of furrow which may point split by miracle of prophet. I think that is not necessary to prove miracle because ther could be many causes for that. So Qur’an say and that is enough. Again photos should not be valid to demonstrate that miracle. I just try to notice the issue.

 

[hasantas]

My friend, you do realize that they (Muslims) were factually wrong there. Now when you are wrong factually, you know that your source in never that trustworthy.

Likewise, there are some factual errors stated or reported in the Quran about the belief of other religions not of Islam. You can twist and turn and justify that error after it is being pointed out to you, but the fact remain an error is an error. If you are not a Muslim, you would question, how could the word of God coming out of God’s mouth did not know what it was talking about or reported wrongly?

I tried to learn English also. In English I learn that Bible is consist of two parts as OT and NT. But I always think that the scripture of Christians is Injil and in English Injil is called Bible. That is issue of language but not religious. Muslims have no error.

 

[JimmyDFG]

The exact word of revelation which was taught to Jesus by Father. Gospels are writings of writers who had written the part of revelation which they could remember later by narrative way.

The Gospels were written by followers of Christ , but were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
CCC 76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”
• in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.

CCC 67
"Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

hasantas, you said “written the part of revelation which they could remember later by narrative way”. The very same thing can be said about the quran.

 

[JimmyDFG]

I tried to learn English also. In English I learn that Bible is consist of two parts as OT and NT. But I always think that the scripture of Christians is Injil and in English Injil is called Bible. That is issue of language but not religious. Muslims have no error.

" As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New"

 

[hasantas]

The Gospels were written by followers of Christ , but were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
CCC 76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”
• in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.

CCC 67
"Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

hasantas, you said “written the part of revelation which they could remember later by narrative way”. The very same thing can be said about the quran.

The idea that Holy Spirit revealed apostles is not reliable. Because Holy Spirit were used to reveal to prophets. And Gospels are different and not same as words. And Gospels was written in the way that the writers narrated the life and the revelation which came to Jesus. There are many comments and statements of writers in Gospels. Those could not be direct revelation. But they could be the witness of revelation or heard from whom was witness.

The case of Qur’an was different. All verses of Qur’an were writen under authority of prophet. Later verses were compiled. But the text of verse was written under authority of prophet never changed.

 

[hasantas]

One of the miraculous attribute of Qur’an is the literature of Qur’an. Qur’an challenge for about 1400 years to bring something like Qur’an but yet nobody could do and nobody will be able for ever! Here:

88-Say, “If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants.” Al-Isra(17)

13-Or do they say, “He invented it”? Say, “Then bring ten sūrahs like it that have been invented and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful.” Hud(11)

38-Or do they say [about the Prophet], “He invented it?” Say, “Then bring forth a sūrah like it and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful.” Yunus(10)

23-And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a sūrah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful.

24-But if you do not – and you will never be able to – then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers. Al-Baqarah(2)

And if it has been possible so Pagans had very clever poets and man of letters but they could not bring something like Qur’an. It would be very easy if they could bring as literary parallel of Qur’an to refute Qur’an totaly. But it was impossible in that way so they decided the most difficult way to destroy Qur’an and it was the way of war. Yet they could not do that also in that way.

There are many miraculous parts of literature of Qur’an.

 

[JimmyDFG]

The idea that Holy Spirit revealed apostles is not reliable. Because Holy Spirit were used to reveal to prophets. And Gospels are different and not same as words. And Gospels was written in the way that the writers narrated the life and the revelation which came to Jesus. There are many comments and statements of writers in Gospels. Those could not be direct revelation. But they could be the witness of revelation or heard from whom was witness.

The case of Qur’an was different. All verses of Qur’an were writen under authority of prophet. Later verses were compiled. But the text of verse was written under authority of prophet never changed.

hasantas, Its only unreliable to those who deny the truth

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you,and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Acts 2:1-4

1 When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together.
2 And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind,and it filled the entire house in which they were.
3 Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them.
4 And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues,as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim

Peter’s Speech at Pentecost.

16 No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:

17 ‘It will come to pass in the last days,’ God says,
‘that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh.
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.

18 Indeed, upon my servants and my handmaids
I will pour out a portion of my spirit in those days,
and they shall prophesy.

While those on whom the Spirit had descended were speaking in many languages, the Apostle Peter stood up with the eleven and proclaimed to the crowd that this event was the fulfillment of the prophecy (“I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh”). In Acts 2:17,
Peter stated that this event was the beginning of a continual outpouring that would be available to all believers from that point on, Jews and Gentiles alike.

It is reliable hasantas