The bottom line on Catholics and gay intolerance

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Well, it’s an objective fact - Gay relationships are morally wrong. Unfortunately, in a world that doesn’t believe in objectivity, we are going to come across as hateful bigots. We’re gonna look like the people who still adamantly support racism now.

We have to come up with more compelling arguments to counter this. Anybody?
 
Just politely tell them that we don’t hate them for being gay, we just think they’re wrong for being gay.
 
The first thing to do is point out that disagreement is not intolerance, that is simply how their activists are trying to frame the argument in order to gain appeal. If it’s just a game, open to everyone, one might cast the same stone at them and ask them to stop being intolerant of the Church, of heterosexuals who disagree with them, or the people in California who have twice voted gay marriage down.

Read this and it should give you a good overview of Catholic teaching on the subject.
 
Well, it’s an objective fact - Gay relationships are morally wrong. Unfortunately, in a world that doesn’t believe in objectivity, we are going to come across as hateful bigots. We’re gonna look like the people who still adamantly support racism now.

We have to come up with more compelling arguments to counter this. Anybody?
For those in the U.S. it would be helpful to read: usccb.org/laity/always.shtml
 
The issue is chosen actions, not persons. We will just have to keep pointing that out until we are blue in the face. 🤷
 
<< Just politely tell them that we don’t hate them for being gay, we just think they’re wrong for being gay.>>

Your sentence assumes that being gay (or heterosexual) is a choice.

It’s not.

It’s just a given.

Being gay does not bring with it that one is promiscuous or even sexually active, any more than being heterosexually married assumes that one was a virgin on the wedding night and monogamous thereafter.
 
<< Just politely tell them that we don’t hate them for being gay, we just think they’re wrong for being gay.>>

Your sentence assumes that being gay (or heterosexual) is a choice.

It’s not.

It’s just a given.

Being gay does not bring with it that one is promiscuous or even sexually active, any more than being heterosexually married assumes that one was a virgin on the wedding night and monogamous thereafter.
Off-topic, Cluny.
 
Well, it’s an objective fact - Gay relationships are morally wrong. Unfortunately, in a world that doesn’t believe in objectivity, we are going to come across as hateful bigots. We’re gonna look like the people who still adamantly support racism now.

We have to come up with more compelling arguments to counter this. Anybody?
I think the first thing we have to do as Catholics is be very accurate in our phraseology. For instance, the “objective fact” you stated (which I highlighted) is not quite accurate, or is at best, incomplete. What is a “gay relationship”? Is it two men feeling love toward one another, having a deep friendship, but avoiding physicality in that friendship? If so, I would not say that is morally wrong. Perhaps you did actually mean to be more specific, such as stating “Gay sexual or intimate relationships are morally wrong”. These qualifiers allow us to be more precise and accurate. An intimate relationship, such as a “marriage” and living together, is morally wrong to a degree lesser than physical sexual relationships, IMO. It should be avoided of course, as it clearly can lead to the occasion of gravely sinning through gay sexual activity, as well as defiling the concept of marriage, and these two problems are the reasons why we should always stand in opposition to the legalization of gay marriage.

I suppose all I mean by my post here is that our first step is to clearly define our terms, as well as underscore the notion that others here have already stated…that we are talking about behaviors, not persons…sins, not sinners. But to someone who finds gay sexual relations moral, we will probably face much difficulty in appealing to them that this is not an attack on them, or their rights, but on the action itself. To them, they themselves ARE the actions, and so are inseparable. They have so closely identified themselves as being inevitably gay, that to appeal to the action as detestable, is to them a statement that they themselves are.

Prayer is of course what is needed most. Peacefully lobbying and voting against gay marriage is important. We have to be careful about how much confrontation we offer, as this is such a sensitive issue because of the ingrained mentality that this is how they were born (which I’m not agreeing nor disagreeing with). The Catholic Church is the primary source of full understanding and teaching regarding this problem, so my opinion is that we demonstrate love and compassion for people dealing with this problem, and do our best to bring them to the Church for guidance and formation…only then do I think we will really make headway.
 
Well, it’s an objective fact - Gay relationships are morally wrong. Unfortunately, in a world that doesn’t believe in objectivity, we are going to come across as hateful bigots. We’re gonna look like the people who still adamantly support racism now.

We have to come up with more compelling arguments to counter this. Anybody?
biblechristiansociety.com has one based on nature. However, here is what I do when people tell me I’m being intolerant.

First, I ask, “What does it mean when something is tolerated?”, “Do you tolerate things you like and agree with or do you accept them?”, “Do you tolerate things that are just and true or do you accept them?”

Then I explain that you can only tolerate something if it is wrong. You cannot tolerate what you agree with.

Finally, I explain that I do tolerate homosexuality. I have never, not once in my life, killed, beat, maimed, or harmed in any way someone for being gay. I have never, not once in my life, denied someone employment for being gay – and I’ve personally filled over 100 positions. I have never, in any way, discriminated against anyone because of age, race, religion, or gender. Therefore I have shown complete and absolute tolerance. What I lack is acceptance. I do not accept the gay lifestyle and if asked for my opinion will explain my opinion. If you don’t want to know how I feel then don’t ask me!
 
<< Just politely tell them that we don’t hate them for being gay, we just think they’re wrong for being gay.>>

Your sentence assumes that being gay (or heterosexual) is a choice.

It’s not.

It’s just a given.

Being gay does not bring with it that one is promiscuous or even sexually active, any more than being heterosexually married assumes that one was a virgin on the wedding night and monogamous thereafter.
I would like to point out that homosexual feelings and inclinations are not sins – homosexual activity is.
 
Grace & Peace!
Well, it’s an objective fact - Gay relationships are morally wrong. Unfortunately, in a world that doesn’t believe in objectivity, we are going to come across as hateful bigots. We’re gonna look like the people who still adamantly support racism now.

We have to come up with more compelling arguments to counter this. Anybody?
I find that the biggest problem in all of this is the Roman Church’s understanding of homosexuality as intrinsically or objectively disordered. Here’s why I think this is problematic–because desire is not a separate organ of the will, but a form of it. To say that one’s sexual orientation is intrinsically disordered is to say that they simply cannot will correctly. Someone on these boards has made the point before that a heterosexual’s desire for a new lawn-mower may be quite alright, but a homosexual’s desire for a new lawn-mower is intrinsically corrupt because their wills are intrinsically broken. There is no circumstance under which a homosexual can will correctly because the mechanism of their desire is intrinsically wrong. This is the logical conclusion of Rome’s teaching on homosexuality–the homosexual is necessarily criminal or sinful because intrinsically disordered. Our general understanding of original sin is that it is a corruption of our will and nature and foreign to both. Rome’s teaching suggests that the homosexual is naturally corrupt.

Moreover, the Judeo-Christian tradition for the most part locates personhood in the will. Unlike the Greeks, we do not believe that we are what we know or what we remember–we are what we will and what we desire. If we cannot help but desire a moral disease because of an objective disorder, we cannot help but be that disease. As such, homosexuality admits no moral cure. Insofar as homosexuality is an expression of a desire for an intimacy which is intrinsically disordered, the homosexual’s will cannot be reformed by grace until they cease being a homosexual. It is inconsistent of Rome to say that an individual can be a homosexual (that is, remain conscious of a desire for same-sex intimacy) and yet not be in a state of sin. It is also inconsistent of Rome not to demand conversion therapy of her homosexual sons and daughters.

In this way, love the sinner, hate the sin is problematic. Homosexuals don’t have to do anything in order to be in a state of sin–they are, in Rome’s understanding, naturally sinful in a way that the heterosexual is not. Rome’s rules regarding homosexual seminarians illustrates this point perfectly: the consciousness of homosexual desire renders one incapable of exercising the offices of a priest. Heterosexual desire, however, does not so cripple a person. A vow of celibacy is worth more, and/or is actually meaningful coming from a heterosexual as opposed to from a homosexual. Why? Presumably because Rome’s teaching leads one naturally to the conclusion that homosexuality is a disease of the will which renders one incapable of properly making the vow.

There is no way to express the Roman understanding of homosexuality as either consistent or particularly charitable without running very quickly into a ditch. The problem is in the very nature of Rome’s understanding, not with how that understanding is phrased or expressed.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
 
Gay “marriage” is God’s way of eliminating gays.

Assume that there is at least a genetic predisposition to gayness. (Personally, I think this is a stretch, but let’s go with it for the sake of argument.)

If society forbids or strictly limits long-term gay relationships, then many gays will end up marrying the opposite sex, having kids, and passing on the genetic factors that support gayness.

Now suppose that society allows gay “marriage.” If anyone with the least inclination to being gay is encouraged to enter into only long-term gay relationships then they will produce far fewer kids, thus curtailing the survival of gay genetic factors.

Maybe we should even say that gay “marriage” is genocidal!
 
Everyone has disordered desires. We struggle with them. Loving the sinner is actually the same thing as hating the sin, because sin does damage to the sinner, inevitably. To love someone is to hate what damages someone, from within or without.
 
Grace & Peace!
Everyone has disordered desires. We struggle with them. Loving the sinner is actually the same thing as hating the sin, because sin does damage to the sinner, inevitably. To love someone is to hate what damages someone, from within or without.
To my knowledge, though, Rome has not chosen to define all of those disordered desires as intrinsically disordered. Which suggests that Rome sees most desire as good, but suffering from the perversion of sin–that is, sin is extrinsic to the desire and parasitical. Something that is intrinsically disordered, though, is *by it’s very nature *disease.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

To my knowledge, though, Rome has not chosen to define all of those disordered desires as intrinsically disordered. Which suggests that Rome sees most desire as good, but suffering from the perversion of sin–that is, sin is extrinsic to the desire and parasitical. Something that is intrinsically disordered, though, is *by it’s very nature *disease.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
Hello Mark,

Are you aware that in 1973, Homosexuality was removed by non-scientific vote from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual?

Peace,
Ed
 
Grace & Peace!
Are you aware that in 1973, Homosexuality was removed by non-scientific vote from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual?
Hi Ed,

Yes, I’m aware that homosexuality is no longer listed as a disease in the DSM. But my larger point is that Rome sees homosexuality as a moral disease. Homosexual desire is objectively disordered, according to the catechism, the logical conclusion of which is that the will of a homosexual is objectively compromised. Unlike other disordered desires, which represent perversions, by sin, of a desire that is understood to be good, homosexual desire is by nature, corrupt. It is by nature understood to be perversion itself.

Perhaps it wasn’t clear in my other post here, but this is a way of thinking I find repugnant to the gospel. I think Rome’s understanding of homosexuality is in need of some revision as it is impossible for someone to articulate it in its fullness and at the same time remain consistent and charitable.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

I find that the biggest problem in all of this is the Roman Church’s understanding of homosexuality as intrinsically or objectively disordered. Here’s why I think this is problematic–because desire is not a separate organ of the will, but a form of it. To say that one’s sexual orientation is intrinsically disordered is to say that they simply cannot will correctly.
It would seem that the Catholic Church in her writings says that homosexual *acts *are intrinsically disordered. I have seen *others *say that homosexuality or whatever are intrinsically disordered, but not the Church.
Someone on these boards has made the point before that a heterosexual’s desire for a new lawn-mower may be quite alright, but a homosexual’s desire for a new lawn-mower is intrinsically corrupt because their wills are intrinsically broken.
Well, that certainly is not Catholic teaching!
There is no circumstance under which a homosexual can will correctly because the mechanism of their desire is intrinsically wrong. This is the logical conclusion of Rome’s teaching on homosexuality–the homosexual is necessarily criminal or sinful because intrinsically disordered. Our general understanding of original sin is that it is a corruption of our will and nature and foreign to both. Rome’s teaching suggests that the homosexual is naturally corrupt.
It is true that the Church considers someone with exclusively homosexual inclinations to have a serious problem. In the same way, we consider people who are blind or paralyzed to have serious problems.
Moreover, the Judeo-Christian tradition for the most part locates personhood in the will. Unlike the Greeks, we do not believe that we are what we know or what we remember–we are what we will and what we desire. If we cannot help but desire a moral disease because of an objective disorder, we cannot help but be that disease. As such, homosexuality admits no moral cure. Insofar as homosexuality is an expression of a desire for an intimacy which is intrinsically disordered, the homosexual’s will cannot be reformed by grace until they cease being a homosexual. It is inconsistent of Rome to say that an individual can be a homosexual (that is, remain conscious of a desire for same-sex intimacy) and yet not be in a state of sin. It is also inconsistent of Rome not to demand conversion therapy of her homosexual sons and daughters.
As I said before, there is a difference between this placing the disordered aspect in the will and placing it in the act. If one considers instead that the inclination is a temptation which should be fought against, then of course, those who fight against the temptations are not sinning.

We all suffer from temptations. Temptations alone are not what make us sinners, giving in, either in fact or in fantasy, is what makes us sinners.
In this way, love the sinner, hate the sin is problematic. Homosexuals don’t have to do anything in order to be in a state of sin–they are, in Rome’s understanding, naturally sinful in a way that the heterosexual is not.
No, because homosexuals are not considered sinners *unless *they sin. Just *being *a homosexual is not sinful.
Rome’s rules regarding homosexual seminarians illustrates this point perfectly: the consciousness of homosexual desire renders one incapable of exercising the offices of a priest. Heterosexual desire, however, does not so cripple a person. A vow of celibacy is worth more, and/or is actually meaningful coming from a heterosexual as opposed to from a homosexual. Why? Presumably because Rome’s teaching leads one naturally to the conclusion that homosexuality is a disease of the will which renders one incapable of properly making the vow.
The reason that the vow of celibacy is more meaningful coming from a heterosexual than a homosexual is that the heterosexual has the opportunity of fullfilling his desire in marriage. To give up something which one is already obliged to give up is pretty meaning less, no?

The reason that homosexuals are/were forbidden from the priesthood is that they have a serious problem. In the same way, men with other serious problems are also barred. When St Isaac Jogues’ hands were pretty much destroyed during torture imposed by the Mohawks, he had to get special permission from Rome to celebrate Mass because normally a man whose body is “broken” is not permitted to.
There is no way to express the Roman understanding of homosexuality as either consistent or particularly charitable without running very quickly into a ditch. The problem is in the very nature of Rome’s understanding, not with how that understanding is phrased or expressed.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
 
Love is not tolerance

BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN****Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

Code:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/images/authos/Sheen8.JPG  *Christian love bears evil, but  it does not tolerate it. *
It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.
*The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth. *
It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.
*The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom. *
*Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth. *
*Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. *
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.
 
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