The call to 'jihad' by Prophet Jesus (pbuh)

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hamba2han said:
Unlike Christians, Muslims do not at all regard Jihad as a dirty word.

For Muslims, Jihad is a very noble and virtuous act and it was indeed commanded by God to among others, Prophet Moses and Prophet David before Prophet Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all).

Christians really do need to read their Bible and as I have pointed out in a prior post, in particular to the verses 7:1-5 and also 20:10-15 in Deuteronomy.

Again I ask this question with regard to both of these passages from Deuteronomy:

Did Jesus condemn and disassociated himself from the concept of Jihad that was commanded to and indeed carried out by Moses (pbut)?

If you say ‘YES’, then how on earth can you then proclaim that it is Jesus (pbuh) who is actually the one referred to as the “Prophet like unto Moses” in Deuteronomy 18:17-18, as it is totally inconceivable that God will send a new Prophet who will condemn and dissociate himself from the divine commands given to an earlier Prophet as written in the Bible?
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Total nonsense! Here is what Islamic jihad really is!

"On the other hand, Islamic jihad is the most barbaric incitement, the world has ever seen, to commit indiscriminate and large scale homicide. In plain words, jihad means indiscriminate killing of kafirs, plundering their wealth, occupying their land and other properties by sword, fire and rape. In fact, Islam as a creed has nothing to do with spiritualism and its sole intention is to create an empire throughout the world and hence it puts greatest virtue in its military component, jihad, or fighting against the kafirs with the ultimate motive of eliminating them en masse. Allah has proclaimed that whatever wealth and riches that exist on the earth belong to Allah and His Messenger and Islam inspires its followers to wage a war against the kafirs, the unlawful occupiers of those wealth and riches, and bring them under the occupationof the legal owners or the Muslims. So, for a Muslim, laundhing a jihad or war against the kafirs, is the highest virtue; higher even than a pilgrimmage to Mecca (hajj), not to speak of lower virtues like prayer (namaj) and fasting (roja). So the Koran says, “Fighting against the kafirs is beyond one’s personal likings and dislikings as Allah has commanded to fight the pagans and all those who ascribe partners (shirk) with Allah” (2.216). "

Vickie
 
Here is another of the decrees of Islam: World subjugation!

"According to Islam, so long the kafirs are not wiped out from the face of the earth, they will have their own dar-ul-harbs and hence war, confrontation and bloodshed (fitnafasad) will continue. But as soon as all the kafirs around the world are either eliminated or converted to Islam and their countries converted into dar-ul-Islams, then and then only lasting peace will be established in the world. That is the reason why some motivated and wicked people try to associate the word peace with Islam.

But it is evident that the path by which Islam intends to bring peace is extremely horrifying. Before bringing that Islamic peace, the entire world is to be turned into a killing field. Drenching the earth with the blood of kafirs is the essential pre-requisite for setting up that worldwide peaceful Islamic state. Any sane person would certainly disapprove such a bloody procedure.

It should also be mentioned here that, it would not be less horrifying if such a peaceful worldwide state controlled by Islam every comes into existence. First, in such a situation, all other wisdom except the contents of Koran and Sunna, would be despised and instantly destroyed. All The collections of books in the libraries throughout the world would be ruthlessly burnt. Most of the sports and games would be declared illegal, every male would have to grow beards and every woman would be covered with the head to foot garment called borqa or hijab and forcefully confined to remain indoor. Education and participation in social activities would be illegal for women. Any artistic pursuit like painting, sculpting, and performing arts like singing, dancing and playing muscal instruments would also be banned. Exgtremely fanatic Islamic mullahs would grab power, run the governments and would establish autocratic regimes based onKoranic instructions. Democracy would go and people would be deprived of their fundamental rights. Peace would certainly prevail, but that would be the peace would certainly prevail, but that would be the peace of a graveyard."

news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1653

Wake up, America!

Vickie
 
hamba2han said:
This is the difference between Muslims and Christians when it comes to Jihad.

Muslims really do not see anything wrong at all regarding this kind of Jihad carried out by Prophet Moses (pbuh).

Christians, in stark contrast, see plenty wrong with this Jihad of Prophet Moses (pbuh) as described in their very own Bible.

If Christians are boldly proclaiming Jesus (pbuh) is the “Prophet like unto Moses”, then why won’t they listen to the things that he actually says in the Bible about fulfilling Mosaic laws?

Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Unlike Christians, Muslims do not have a problem at all accepting the things that Jesus (pbuh) said and did… even the things which are recorded in the Bible.
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One thing about what you call Moses’ Jihad… You seem not to realise that some things did have changed during the course of times, even within the Revelation in the Old Testament. For instance, sinners would be executed with their families. But later,in the times of the Prophet Ezechiel, God declared that the ones who sin (and don’t repent and change their hearts of course) are the only ones who will have to answer for their sins.
Also, when the great flood had happened and Noah and his family and the animals in the ark got out on the land, God, blessed is He, swore by Himself that He would not seek to destroy His whole Creation any more…
As for Israel in Moses’ times, they were going back into their own land, promised to them by God in the times of Abraham.
Also remember Amalek, the people who attacked Israel even though Israel had done nothing to THEM!
The use of arms had then (just as now) in cases of extreme necessity… although I grant you that Israelite kings did wage war against ennemies, but there is no proof that God approved them then! When Israelites had to defend their lives, it was tolerated, but it’s not according to God’s usual customs, as is shown in Jesus, when you look at the New Testament verses in their context.
 
Hamba2han, what do you make of the passage in the 2nd Book of Samuel where King David’s own son Absalom was rebelling against his father to kill him and be on his father’s throne? King David was told of by God Himself to be a king according to His heart. And in this particular episode, he kept asking his military leader Joab to spare Absalom’s life even though Absalom was after His life… Isn’t that a bit extreme? And when news were brought to him of Absalom’s death, he was genuinely upset and very sad, he wept and mourned him as though he would have been his only son (even though he had other sons). He also deplored that Joab’s heart chose killing over just arresting his son.
How are the Qor’an verses about slaying the infidels in accordance with God’ s “mind” and ways, so to speak? You never answered to my question: "How could Muhammad tell words actually coming from Allah from words not coming from Him, since he was not a learned person? Did he ever tell his disciples from which clues or signs he could tell one from the other? This is important, since Satan can disguise himself as an angel of God…
…Also, I always wanted to ask you, Hamba2han: your English is very good… are you of English descent? One doesn’t have to be an Arab to be a Muslim, I know that much…
 
hamba2han said:
Oh, come on, please don’t get me started on the punishment for apostasy as written in the Bible./QUOTE
Well, why not? What is the passage, or what are the passages on this, and what do they say?
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hamba2han said:
[The] Bible does indeed record that [Jesus] unequivocally says the following:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. … Matthew 10:34
I don’t know, Hamba2han, whether somebody has already answered you on the meaning of this particular Jesus’ word. In the context, He was merely warning anyone who would want to become his disciple that it wouldn’t be just a picnic, so to speak. There would be much persecution and opposition, and they won’t make your life easy. No need for Christians to take the sword or any war weapon (litterally) to have to face a situation like that!
Putting a number of verses together is not always enough to prove that the Gospels actually mean what might look reasonable to think from them, such as the question about a so-called call by Jesus to a temporal Jihad… The context is made of the whole of the Biblical texts AS WELL as the concordance of some parts of the Bible. It’s not as simple as it may seem, and this is why it would be a good thing for you to get some training in Biblical Interpretation, that is, if you genuinely are interested in the truth and not just in having the winning hand at the end of all this thread.
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Welll i personally think that Jihad, theologically speaking, is an existential philosophy that is religiously abstracted and constructed from Jesus’s historicity. It is a conceptually inept conclusion which…

GO GRESE LIGHTING YOUR BURNING UP A QUARTER MIle. GRease lightening GO GREASLIGHTENING.
 
Perhaps its time to borrow from our Orthodox Christian brothers. who see The Church as “The Hospital”. Thus the church and a lot of Jesus’ teachings are centered around the imagery of **The Healer **curing His people from the suffering arising from the evil sins that infect all aspects of fallen humanity’s conscience, judgement, soul, reason and so on.

A fundamental teaching of the Holy Fathers is that the Church is a “Hospital” which cures the wounded man. In many passages of Holy Scripture such language is used. One such passage is that of the parable of the Good Samaritan: “But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion . So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you” (Luke 10:33-35).

In this parable, the Samaritan represents Christ who cured the wounded man and led him to the Inn, that is to the “Hospital” which is the Church. It is evident here that Christ is presented as the Healer, the physician who cures man’s maladies; and the Church as the true Hospital.

From this perspective it is very very clear that Jesus was focused on healing. To say that he was advocating the violence of Jihad is exactly opposite of what a healer does unless Islam equates killing the patient via decapitation as the means to relive its fellow man from his suffering - a sort of mercy killing. 😃

Please Please Please Hanba - we are hitting this from every angle and no matter how much you want to bend scripture into an excuse for Holy War you keep pushing yourself further and further away from truth. Stop before you break your brain.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
Please Please Please Hanba - we are hitting this from every angle and no matter how much you want to bend scripture into an excuse for Holy War you keep pushing yourself further and further away from truth. Stop before you break your brain
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in my opinion it shows how much a person is willing to bury his head in the sand, put any rational healing on hold, twist every single passage that opposes his claim, all this to give credit to what he thinks is the truth.

But after showing him Jesus taught the opposite of jihad, he uses this point to “prove without a doubt” that Jesus must not have been the prophet like Moses, as if jihad were a criteria in the first place.
 
hamba2han said:
Prophet Moses (pbuh) waged Jihad to punish people who were guilty of deliberately denying the truth…
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Hi hamba2han,

If you want to learn more about Moses, then may be you should do some research on the parrallels between Passover and the Crucifixion. You know, prophecy is our way to “test the truth of a religion” (sic).

*O come, O come, Emmanuel,
And ransom captive Israel,
That mourns in lonely exile here
Until the Son of God appear.

Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel.*
 
hamba2han said:
… Unlike Christians, Muslims do not have a problem at all accepting the things that Jesus (pbuh) said and did… even the things which are recorded in the Bible.
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  • except for that part where He died on the cross (see Qur’an 4:157).
Unfortunately, that is a very big part of Christianity. And that’s why Christians and Muslims can not connect.
 
Hamba,

Islam is a dirty religion for it has the blood of the saints on it’s hands.

Paradise will undergo even a larger increase of martyrs during the tribulation, And there is not one Muslim in paradise other than the in one called hell. The only Muslim’s in heaven are those who have converted to christianity and are under the blood of Christ. The fallen angel’s spirit of Allah had no son and Muhammed was a piece of junk, not a redeemer.

9 ¶And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

You regard jihad as a noble and virtuous act when it truly is an abomination.

A fellow jihadist of yours blew himself up in a market place and the bombers head landed across the street in front of children in a school yard…blowing up fellow muslim’s…this is jihad.

A woman was stoned to death this year in Iraq as the result of a mercy killing for marying a muslim of a different sect. Just one person… Sunni’s killing Shia’s and vice versa. This is jihad.

4 *And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

So when I see Muslim’s dancing and celebration in the streets after their fellow jihadist commit the abominations of the earth, ** I say that they are drunk with the wine of their fornication.**

Revelation 17:2 *With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

**“Her” **is the harlot that rides the beast. She is symbolic of a city and muslim jihadist who’s abominations fill the harlot’s cup. ** She **will run out of virgins when Islam is destroyed when Christ returns. Isn’t it sad however, Protestant’s believe this harlot is symbolic of “the apostate church”.

This is what islam has to look foward to.

*Revelation 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

SE
 
mangy_dog said:
lulululululullululullulululululululululululululululul:knight1:
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No but seriously…I believe that the prayers of all the catholics on this thread will bring about the conversion of Hambo.

And Hambo, don’t be afraid…Jesus is a loving, caring and merciful God. He will welcome you, forgive your sins and then He, the Father and the Holy Spirit will come to dwell within you. All you need to do is follow the example of Mary Theotokos, “Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum”.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
I strongly suggest that we on this thread all take a Holy Day break starting tomorrow night at 11:59 p.m. (Pacific Time) at most and that we resume this chat on Jan.14 in the morning, so as to honor the commemoration of our Blessed Lord Jesus’ birth during these days of Christmas Time… Unless this thread ceases at most tomorrow, of course.
I also suggest to Hamba2han that he would also take a break from tomorrow night at 11:59 (Pacific Time) and resume his participation to this discussion on Jan. 14 in the morning at least ats a token of respect towards us Christians.
I also wish, in case there would be Muslim Holy Days coming before this discussion ends, that we all take a break during the course of those Holy Days as a token of respect towards Hamba2han and other Muslims (if there are any) who participate in our conversation on this thread. Agreed?
To all the Catholics and other Christians taking part in this dicussion or just reading what we say, Have a very nice Christmas full of blessings, love and deep joy, and a very Holy Happy New Year! God bless you all!
 
Dear hamba2han,

You do have a celebration on December 20th about the day for the Qurban right? So, happy celebration… and may your qurban you bring to your fellow muslims be accepted by Allah and He in return gives you His blessing. And to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, and in the name of Humanity, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
 
Denis_Laplante said:
You never answered to my question: "How could Muhammad tell words actually coming from Allah from words not coming from Him, since he was not a learned person? Did he ever tell his disciples from which clues or signs he could tell one from the other? This is important, since Satan can disguise himself as an angel of God.
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The question that you are really asking is – How are Muslims so certain that the Qur’an was not authored by Satan?

Some people do indeed claim that the Qur’an was the work of the devil. Let us examine how much sense (or non-sense) this allegation makes.

If he authored or inspired the Qur’an, why would Satan curse himself and call himself the worst enemy of man?

Verily Satan is an enemy to you: so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire. (Al-Qur’an 35:6)

Did I not enjoin on you, O ye Children of Adam, that ye should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an enemy avowed?- (Al-Qur’an 36:60)

Why would Satan command that before reciting the Qur’an, one must first say:

**“…I seek refuge in God from Satan the accursed.” ** (Al-Qur’an 16:98)

How could Satan so vehemently condemn himself? Is it really acceptable to common sense to hold the view that Satan would ask people to do good, to be moral and virtuous, to worship none but God, to not follow Satan or his whispers, and to avoid and struggle against evil?

To hold such a view is clearly repugnant to reason, as Satan has only undermined himself through this means if he is the author. Even the Bible attests:

“And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.” (Mark 3:26)

This argument applies to any “Satanic forces”, be they “evil spirits”, “deceitful aliens”, etc.

Also, to answer your second question – No, I am not of English descent and neither am I an Arab… but I do live in Asia though.

And I have no objection at all to this thread going into hiatus as I think that I have spoken all that I wish to say on the topic of this thread.
 
hamba2han said:
The question that you are really asking is – How are Muslims so certain that the Qur’an was not authored by Satan?

Some people do indeed claim that the Qur’an was the work of the devil. Let us examine how much sense (or non-sense) this allegation makes.

If he authored or inspired the Qur’an, why would Satan curse himself and call himself the worst enemy of man?

Verily Satan is an enemy to you: so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire. (Al-Qur’an 35:6)

Did I not enjoin on you, O ye Children of Adam, that ye should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an enemy avowed?- (Al-Qur’an 36:60)

Why would Satan command that before reciting the Qur’an, one must first say:

**“…I seek refuge in God from Satan the accursed.” ** (Al-Qur’an 16:98)

How could Satan so vehemently condemn himself? Is it really acceptable to common sense to hold the view that Satan would ask people to do good, to be moral and virtuous, to worship none but God, to not follow Satan or his whispers, and to avoid and struggle against evil?

To hold such a view is clearly repugnant to reason, as Satan has only undermined himself through this means if he is the author. Even the Bible attests:

“And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.” (Mark 3:26)

This argument applies to any “Satanic forces”, be they “evil spirits”, “deceitful aliens”, etc.
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Thank you for this frank answer. I do appreciate it. Now, tell me, does Muhammad state this specifically in the Surah where he states that it wasn’t Jesus who died on the cross, that it was somebody who looked like him, despite the fact that all four Gospels affirm that it actually was he who did, going into such details as his having been scourged (or whipped if you prefer), his having been beaten by the guards and crowned with thorns. Where would the substitution have happened, tell me. From the moment he appeared before the Sanhedrin and that he made the statement that the Son of Man will be seen coming on the clouds of heaven (it had to be made by him personnally), I don’t think there was an opportunity to escape now that they had him…)
Even if he did, what if Muhammad wasn’t exactly quoting the Angel of God, but just put the thought that came to him then, feeling some joy at it, feeling that it must have come from the Angel of God? It once happened to me about one thought I had about the virginal birth of Jesus which I thought then to explain the truth in a way Mary didn’t need to have been immaculate from her conception to the end as the Church teaches it (the Catholic Church, that is!) But later I had to reconsider my thought, for I had to acknowledge that I was trying to explain it in a way acceptable to my finite brain. With God there are things we cannot grasp and understand fully, aren’t there? Otherwise, God wouldn’t be God! ( I have come to accept that teaching fully since, even though it’s still quite a mystery to me!)
So, my hunch is, that Muhammad might have thought this idea coming to him to genuinely have come from the Angel of God. Could this not have been possible? And this doesn’t question Muhammad’s honesty at all, what do you think?
I may look as though I am breaching what I said in my last intervention, but I said: starting at the most tomorrow (tonight) at 11:59 p.m. Pacific Time… We’re not there yet! Still, I think this conversation was not as useless as it may have seemed to many, so thank you very much. Allah bless you!
 
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