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elwill
Guest
what is the differences you see between God of abraham (pbuh) and God of mohammd (pbuh) ?
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Iotaunum
Guest
You will have to think as the Church thinks on this one. If I hated Muslims (which I certainly do not) then I would tell them that their false religion is good and that they DO infact worship the True God.
However, as a Catholic I am bound (out of Charity if nothing else) to tell the Truth and say that there is but one True Faith (the Catholic Faith) outside of which there can be no salvation, and that they do not worship the True God who will judge mankind on the last day: Jesus Christ. Which is being more loving?, which is being more charitable? You are thinking like a modernist on this one.
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exoflare
Guest
This has been addressed several times already. The Catechism isn’t “wrong” in this passage, but people tend to project a lot of things onto the text that it doesn’t really say.
I explained this in detail here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7082505
I explained this in detail here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7082505
wow, sorry about the nerve I struck…If you were referring to that Catechism passage someone cited earlier I’ve seen that mentioned numerous times before, but what’s it really supposed to prove? The quote is cleverly worded the way it is for a reason, to sound very upbeat and diplomatic while being careful to avoid making a unique pronouncement on anything of substance.
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Iotaunum
Guest
Yes.
You are not only worshiping a different god than I, but a different God than Abraham worshiped. You do not understand that Muhammad was a false prohpet which Scripture warns of teaching false and Contrary gospels to that which we had recieved 600 years before he was born.
Just because Muhammad claimsdoes not in any way make it so. In fact, the claim is demonstrably false.
Long before Muhammad was born, God Himself, the second person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus Christ, became incarnate and dwelt amoung us. This does not mean that Jesus was created, for God cannot be created. He is of one being with the Father. God is a Trinity. This infallible Truth was revealed directly by God Himself to the Church which He founded long before Muhammad was born.
Now when Abraham worshiped God, certain facts about His divine nature were unkown to him at that point. God was **ALWAYS ** a Trinity from all eternity. Therefore, in not merely realising what had not yet bee revealed about the divine nature, Abraham worshiped God as He revealed Himself.
Therefore, Abraham did not reject God in not understanding that God is a Trinity, as it had not been revealed to him at that point. If however, God did reveal that He was a Trinity to Abraham, and Abraham rejected Him as a Trinity (Which he did not), though claiming to worship God as He was revealed before, it is clear that he would have been rejecting God completely - for you cannot worship one part of God and reject the other.
Luke 10:16 - “He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.”
John 6:44 - “No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day.”
It is also clear that the God of Abraham is a Trinity, as from all eternity. No one therefore, since God has revelealed Himself as a Trinity can claim to worship Him as God, and yet reject the two ther divine persons in Him. It cannot be done. Christ explains:
John 14:6 - “Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.”
It is beyond dispute therefore. No one can worship God BUT through Jesus Christ.
In short, if one reject the Trinity, he rejects the God of Abraham. Muslims therefore do not worship the God of Abraham.
The confusion arises since Muhammad claimed that his god was Abraham’s, in order to try and give his new religion some credibility. However, this is not the Case. God said many things and teaches many things which completely go against and contradict what Muhammad*** claimed*** that his god told him.
Islam calls a blasphemy what God has revealed; namely that Jesus Christ is God. Thus, they no more worship the God of Abraham (the Trinity) than does any other pagan sect who would likewise claim.
This is the Truth which I tell you in charity, for the sake of your salvation.
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SnakeMauler
Guest
Ok it’s about 5 words in a Catechism its nothing to lose sleep over. Maybe we should just ask the Pope. Can we do that people? Act the Pope and get an actual good reason? Has anyone ever thought of that? Someone email the Pope. Thanks.
Besides, even if Muslims do somehow worship the same God as us, that doesn’t change the fact that million of them are just trying to do what they think the right thing is. It’s not millions of people’s fault they weren’t brought up as Christians and now have a cultural bias against Christianity which they can’t overcome.
Besides, even if Muslims do somehow worship the same God as us, that doesn’t change the fact that million of them are just trying to do what they think the right thing is. It’s not millions of people’s fault they weren’t brought up as Christians and now have a cultural bias against Christianity which they can’t overcome.
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fleadhcheoil
Guest
God bless you .
There is only one God, ----- Catholics . Muslims and Jews all believe this to be true, the sad part is many religious fanatics claim God belongs to them, this stems from selfish greed and hatred.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I actually explained it in the post you quoted. You can go to my first post in the thread for a further discussion.
You’re contradicting yourself here. As I said earlier, the God of the Old and New Testament are the same, and therefore the God who spoke to Abraham is the same God who spoke through the New Testament. As it stands, Islam denies the truth of the New Testament and imposes upon it the beliefs of the Quran, which came 600 years after the event. It denies, as you said, the Christian understanding of God. If it does that, then it worships and demands the worship of a false god.
That it is sourced to the prophet Mohammad is likewise something that can’t be ignored, given that Mohammad claimed to be speaking for God and was giving instructions from God. If the prophet is found to be false, then he is not working for God. Christians have and always will deny Mohammad as a true prophet, because as scripture attests the time of the prophets ended with Christ (Luke 16:16; Heb 1:1-2). Likewise, the teachings of Mohammad were contradictory to what was taught in ancient scripture, both the Old and the New - something that is warned time and time against in the Bible. God cannot contradict Himself, and as I said earlier: either God is the author of confusion, or someone here is worshiping a false god.
Who said?
I’ve argued in many other threads, which I can gladly link to, that Jews (at least the ones who deny the divinity and Messianic nature of Christ) are not worshiping the true God, because they refuse to accept God as He has fully revealed Himself through the written word and prophets. If you are claiming inconsistency on this matter, I certainly am not inconsistent.Bam - there’s the issue. Our God did not send the Quran. The Quran, as outlined earlier, is a false message. False messages only come from false gods. Therefore, you are following a false god.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Thanks for the link. Just a few questions and concerns from it:
My confusion is that it doesn’t say “those who choose to follow” (and by that I assume you mean follow Christ, I could be mistaken though), it just says “those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims,” as if because the Muslims worship a kind of Creator they are part of the plan of salvation.
I agree with that. I think in any future publications that should likewise be stressed.
Therein lies the issue: if the Catechism is saying Muslims still worship the same God, even if “technically,” then it’s still wrong. As I outlined earlier, Muslims follow a false prophet who gave a false message, both of which could only come from a false god. This isn’t a technicality, this is a serious heretical thought, since it deals with Christ and His gospel.
You do admit that their “set of beliefs is clearly at odds with the Church,” which is spot on, but we can’t be afraid to call a spade a spade. Elijah didn’t say that Baal priests had a “flawed” understanding of God, and Christ certainly didn’t tell the Pharisees they “technically worship the same God” (in fact He called them children of the devil; John 8:44). Any worship that denies the divinity of the Son and withholds from Him the fullest extent of glory cannot be directed to the true God.
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dzheremi
Guest
After reading, participating in, and even starting several threads on this topic or topics related to it, I can only conclude that good Christian people persist in this particular error because they really, really want it to be so. It seems so much easier and less messy if things can be said to be acceptable enough in one way or another to God to be received by Him, because then we (as good Christian people) can encourage those who are trying to worship the true God but are failing due to their respective religions’ teachings on Christ to continue in what is not intentionally contradicting our religion, while jettisoning what is. The trouble with this view, as pleasant as it makes those who hold it appear, is two-fold:
(1) It contradicts Christian scripture and tradition (see any of the quotes BW has offered);
(2) It contradicts Islamic (in this case) scripture and tradition
So on point one, it gives the Muslims a false impression of Christianity and its practice, which does nothing but give them apologetic fodder for their Christ-denying religion that they ought not to have, certainly not with the help of a Church! Neither does it respect or show understanding of their own tradition, which we see both in its scripture (see, for instance, Qur’an 5:17) and in its classical apologetics completely denies that Muslims worship the same God that Christians do. Didn’t I already post this video in this thread? It is a poem by Ibn Al Qayyim Al Jawziyya, a Muslim of the 14th century. It mocks our Lord’s most perfect sacrifice, and repeats the same tired arguments that we’ve been hearing from Islam…well, since at least the 14th century (“Where was God when Jesus was dead?”, “How could people kill God when God is more powerful than them?”, etc). I invite those who persist in the error reproduced in CCC 841 to listen to it, think about it, and then really ask themselves how such people who deny the truth of God can also somehow be worshiping Him. They aren’t, and they openly say they aren’t and mock those who do.
Just as an aside, it would seem that this “you worship the true God but your incorrect understanding of Him obscures your view” idea has also found support among some Muslims, if this post in a discussion I am having with a Muslim in another thread is any indication (about 3/4 of the way down; starting with “Also by the fact that you worship…”). So it is not only well-meaning Christians making this error, but also well-meaning Muslims. God help us all.
(1) It contradicts Christian scripture and tradition (see any of the quotes BW has offered);
(2) It contradicts Islamic (in this case) scripture and tradition
So on point one, it gives the Muslims a false impression of Christianity and its practice, which does nothing but give them apologetic fodder for their Christ-denying religion that they ought not to have, certainly not with the help of a Church! Neither does it respect or show understanding of their own tradition, which we see both in its scripture (see, for instance, Qur’an 5:17) and in its classical apologetics completely denies that Muslims worship the same God that Christians do. Didn’t I already post this video in this thread? It is a poem by Ibn Al Qayyim Al Jawziyya, a Muslim of the 14th century. It mocks our Lord’s most perfect sacrifice, and repeats the same tired arguments that we’ve been hearing from Islam…well, since at least the 14th century (“Where was God when Jesus was dead?”, “How could people kill God when God is more powerful than them?”, etc). I invite those who persist in the error reproduced in CCC 841 to listen to it, think about it, and then really ask themselves how such people who deny the truth of God can also somehow be worshiping Him. They aren’t, and they openly say they aren’t and mock those who do.
Just as an aside, it would seem that this “you worship the true God but your incorrect understanding of Him obscures your view” idea has also found support among some Muslims, if this post in a discussion I am having with a Muslim in another thread is any indication (about 3/4 of the way down; starting with “Also by the fact that you worship…”). So it is not only well-meaning Christians making this error, but also well-meaning Muslims. God help us all.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I have to review posts here, but where we are the same as Christians and Muslims is that we believe in God the Creator, that we are called to acknowledge Him and worship Him, and that we are to conduct our lives accordingly. We are to treat our neighbor as ourselves.
Now I have also read parts of Sharia law that treats non-Muslims as second class citizens, especially as it was practices in Moslem dominated Spain in Cordoba. There was also the child tax used against Christians, taking the first born son and making him Muslim and part of their army whereas the Jews were left alone and did not loose any children. This happened in Bosnia, and the manner the Turks overcame Serbia was very brutal, that to this day, Bosnia means Muslim and they taunt the Serbs calling them Bosnians. Very sad.
I am reading about the hospitality Muslims show everyone in the rest of the world listed on another thread the other day, and this is very good to know.
Now I have also read parts of Sharia law that treats non-Muslims as second class citizens, especially as it was practices in Moslem dominated Spain in Cordoba. There was also the child tax used against Christians, taking the first born son and making him Muslim and part of their army whereas the Jews were left alone and did not loose any children. This happened in Bosnia, and the manner the Turks overcame Serbia was very brutal, that to this day, Bosnia means Muslim and they taunt the Serbs calling them Bosnians. Very sad.
I am reading about the hospitality Muslims show everyone in the rest of the world listed on another thread the other day, and this is very good to know.
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MrZetterlund
Guest
Well, if you look at what he’s saying, he said “**the plan of salvation **also includes” them. Indeed, God’s redemptive plan “involves” all of mankind. However, that is not to say they “partake” in the biblical salvation (not “plan of salvation”) as taught cristal clear by Lord Jesus Christ Himself in the Gospels.
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elwill
Guest
sorry i didn’t get it
when you said that God of abraham is different than God of mohammed , i expect you may show me from you bible what it says about God of abraham which made you very sure that he isn’t the same one of muslims
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I…did…
I can’t help you if my posts weren’t clear enough in how the Christian God (a.k.a. the God of Abraham) is different than the god Mohammad claimed to work for. I explained with quotations from the New Testament and cited Quranic passages which contradicted them. If from that you said “I don’t get it,” well I can’t explain it any further.
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elwill
Guest
you were clear enough to inform us how the christian God (a.k.a. the God of Abraham ) is different than the God of Mohammed **( a.k.a. the God of Abraham **)I…did…
but you said :
because obviously it has been established that Muslims do not worship the same God Abraham did.
seems to me that you has been established **that Muslims do not worship the same God christians did **
may be it was false typing then
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KathleenGee
Guest
Don’t play games, Elwill…you know that the Christ you studied in the Koran is a borrowed and changed Christ…and they mean that through teachings of Mohammed, and denies His historical crucifixion. You have been on here enough.
Mohammed’s teachings may come as seed from Ishmael, but they parallel Judeo Christian salvation history, otherwise you would not be in the place where you are now.
Mohammed’s teachings may come as seed from Ishmael, but they parallel Judeo Christian salvation history, otherwise you would not be in the place where you are now.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I stated (I believe at least twice or thrice) that the God of the Old and New Testaments are the same. The God Christians worship is the God Abraham worshiped. That was my point, which I elaborated on, and which everyone else on the forum fully understood.you were clear enough to inform us how the christian God (a.k.a. the God of Abraham ) is different than the God of Mohammed **( a.k.a. the God of Abraham **)
but you said :
because obviously it has been established that Muslims do not worship the same God Abraham did.
seems to me that you has been established **that Muslims do not worship the same God christians did **
may be it was false typing then
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