The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

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Not to keep arguing but there was a split of catholic’s…Catholics in Rome are separate from the catholics in the rest of the sees…
Which sees are we talking about? :confused: There were only seven sees that split off - the rest of them still continue to remain with Rome. Rome is not just sitting there on an island all by itself. There are hundreds and hundreds of Dioceses (sees) that are in full communion with Rome, and always have been.
 
You see that they have split away, but the line still continues in Rome - still reaching back to St. Peter without any breaks - and remains unbroken even until now.
I know you see it as their split…And you see a line of popes…Either way, all catholics Rome see and the rest, were in one accord when it was put together…It just wasn’t the Rome see doing the job or taking the credit…OK I’m done
 
From 33 AD onwards there was only the Catholic Church. Since the books of the NT were written prior to 100AD, therefore all these were written within the Church by Catholics. Yes, surprise, surprise, St Paul was (is) Catholic.

Since not every single baptized person are deemed inspired by the Holy Spirit, this is when the Church decided that they must form a canon. The canon is not only significant for what it included but for what it excluded as well.

That we know that Marcion’s canon is heretical is thanks to the Catholic Church.

Yes, they were. Disheartening isn’t it? 🙂

I don’t think they claim that Abraham was a moslem. They consider Abraham as their Father and rightly so, since the moslems trace themselves back to Ishamel.

Oh but they are not empty claims. Historical data is available.

No we don’t. That is what is so marvelous. God provided even for that so that we will know which is His true Church.

Aye, aye to that. But if you are really serious about following Jesus, you will take Him at His word, ALL OF IT and not just the ones that suit you.

So again, read the Gospels and believe in what He says.

And if you are truly sticking wtih Jesus, then you will stick with the Pope as well. But you are not really sticking with Jesus. You are sticking to yourself, I/Me/Myself/Mosacked.
Who wrote catholic history?
The catholics.
Who says the catholic system was handed down by Peter?
The catholics.
Who says the apostles were Catholics?
The catholics.

NOTICE something there? Its just YOU. Its just what YOU claim. You can accuse us of not following YOUR history, you can accuse us of not following the Pope that YOU designated, and you can accuse us of not recognizing the apostles as catholics as YOU labeled them.

Its just YOU, and your own perception.

.

So…Yes, I am sticking with Jesus, and I’m not about to extend that embrace to anyone else that YOU claim is representative.

Because everything that you claim is really just YOU.

“I am the Truth, the Way and the Life. NO man goes to the Father except through me” - Jesus.
  • If you only knew the Holy Ghost. You wouldn’t be a catholic.
If a man tells you “your life is in my hands, when I return you better make sure you do these things written in my scroll right”. Then the man disappears. Next a kid appears and tells you, “you better believe me and do everything I tell you in this book, that man runs my house and now I represent him. I am his vicar!”

Now, the man returns…and he asks you “so did you follow my instructions in the scroll?” and you tell him well I followed that kid with the book, he said he represented you. and the man asks you “how do you know he represents me?”…well you could say…

“eh…he gave me a bunch of history books to say how he got hold of the authority to represent you and anyway you said that you will pass your inheritance to your kid right?”

The man might say “Yes, my kid…but is THAT my kid? Haven’t I given you enough instructions to know what to do and even warned you not to add nor take out from the scroll? So why do you accept that book and that kid?..didn’t I tell you that your life is in MY hands???”

What will you tell him?

.
 
Did not the Romans instil in many the symbol of the cross by putting Christ on it? So, are we to THANK the Romans for crucifying Jesus and helping us redeem ourselves through the crucifixion??
Actually, the Romans DID ‘decide’ the symbol of our redemption since it was their method of execution that the cross comes to us. They could have just fed Him to the lions, or simply put Him to death by any of their infamous methods. Sure, God knew what was to come and USED the worst Roman method to mean something good.

Nice try at ‘twisting’ though to dodge the Bible from The Catholic Church point.

Fail!
I think you are getting your priorities reversed.

God’s will must be done, whether it is by you or by your enemies. It is totally nonsensical to claim credit for a book written by God Himself.

“Whoever is not against you is for you”.
Nice try to validate the rubbish you peddle by mixing in more smoke and rubbish.

God willed what we all have! The Bible from The Church He instituted included. ‘WE’ (Catholics) do not claim it as individuals, but in unison as belonging to the Body of holy men and women that ‘wrote’ down what The Holy Author willed!

A bit like Americans claiming ‘they’ gave us Muhammed ALI, Ford cars and McDonalds! All true!

Fail, again.

Look around the forum. Many duck, dive and dodge in similar style as you when confronted with accurate refutation of an asserted point. Every dissention or accusation you have in your quiver can not overcome the ‘open hand’ of God’s Church being extended to you.

Take it!..otherwise you’ll end up gnashing your teeth to the gums and tire yourself from all that ducking and diving.

:cool:
 
I know you see it as their split…And you see a line of popes…Either way, all catholics Rome see and the rest, were in one accord when it was put together…It just wasn’t the Rome see doing the job or taking the credit…OK I’m done
You’re actually on song, Hiskid. The only problem is the “Rome” thing!

When Peter died, he was Bishop of Rome. When he died with that status, he confined us all to that See, because his successor HAS to be also bishop of Rome.

The Seat, The Chair, REMAINS in Rome!
Same as U.S presidential office; English monarchy; Oriental emperors etc. are similar, although with some reservations.

I say I am ‘Roman’ Catholic because the Seat of Peter is in Rome, even though I am in New Zealand and have my own bishop who is EQUAL to the Roman bishop in all respects but one!

As far as the ‘split’ is concerned, the tangible evidence is there for all to see; there was a line of Popes before the split, during the split, and after the split, to this day. In almost a millenia many have argued about who’s who! Ah well,…*

Not trying to draw you, by the way.

:cool:
 
It 'gave us" neither.

.
Thank you for setting the record straight
Actually you are both wrong.

Not Too Smart at least had the correct sense in a way. Yes, we did give the world the Bible and yes we were responsible for the inquisition and the sex abuse scandals are a fact.

No we never denied the negative bits (although the negative bits are not quite what the ordinary bloke thinks) and can very well take credit for the postive bit.

These are all a matter of facts. Anyone capable of a little bit of reading and research can ascertain this for him/her self.
 
No problems here…unless you try and say those catholic christians were Roman Catholic Christians.
Here is a timeline of the Catholic Church from Pentecost until 500AD. From the very beginning there is only one Catholic Church.

Taken from this link:
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline_of_catholic_church.htm

You can read the rest of the data in the above website.

ADEvent20s*c. 29 AD
Our Lord’s Resurrection. The First Pentecost. St. Peter preaches in Jerusalem and converts three thousand people, creating the first Christian community. 30s*c. 35 Saul of Tarsus has an apparition of Jesus Christ and is converted to Christianity. *c. 39 St. Peter baptizes Cornelius. This event marks the beginning of the missionizing to the Gentiles.

40s*42 The first persecution of Christians in Jerusalem under Herod Agrippa. Many Christians escape to Antioch, establishing its first community. *44 Martyrdom of St. James the Great, brother of the Apostle John. He is the first apostle to die for the faith. He was sentenced by Herod Agrippa in 44 AD. Today he is honored at the shrine of Santiago Compostela.

50s*c. 51 The Council of Jerusalem. It rules that Gentile converts do not have to observe the Moasaic Law.60s*62 Martyrdom of St James the Less, Bishop of Jerusalem. He is stoned to death.

*64 First persecution of the Christians by Nero, who blames them for setting a fire that burned much of Rome. Christianity soon after becomes a capital crime.

*66 Jews revolt against Roman authority. The Christians, remembering the prophecies of Christ, leave Jerusalem, led by their bishop, St. Simeon. A civil war ensues. Nero sends Vespasian and Titus to put down the insurrection.

67 Martyrdom of St. Peter. Tradition states that he was crucified upside down. St. Linus succeeds him as pope (-76). 69 Fall of Jerusalem. The Temple is destroyed. Tacitus records that 600 000 Jews were slaughtered during the siege; Josephus said it was a million.
**70s
76
* Pope St. Cletus (Anacletus) reigns(-88).80sc. 88 The reign of Pope St. Clement I (-97). During his pontificate, he issues a letter to the Corinthians, urging them to submit themselves to lawful religious authority. He writes "Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry."90s95 Persecution of Christians in Rome under Domitian. 97 Pope St. Evaristus accedes to the Chair of Peter (-105).
100s
c. 100 Death of John, the last apostle. The period of Public Revelation comes to an end.

*c.100 Birth of St. Justin Martyr (d. c. 165), Church Father. He wrote two Apologies of the Faith, and A Dialogue with Trypho, the Jew. In his writings, he bears witness to a number of Catholic doctrines. In one famous passage, he describes the Order of the Mass.

c. 105 Death of Pope St. Evaristus. Pope St. Alexander I replaces him (-115). c.107-117 Martyrdom of St. Ignatius of Antioch, apostolic Father and bishop. He was a disciple of St. John, along with St. Polycarp. Theodoret, the Church historian says he was consecrated bishop by St. Peter, who was at first bishop of Antioch before going to Rome. Ignatius was martyred in Rome under Emperor Trajan’s rule. It was during the journey to Rome that he wrote his famous letters that contain invaluble information about the early Church. He was the first to use the term “Catholic” to describe the Church.
**110s
111
* Pliny the Younger, govenor of Bithynia, writes in a letter to the Emperor Trajan that to his surprise, the Christians are not guilty of any of the vices they are rumoured to engage in. He executes Christians who would not apostatize.
c. 115 Pope St. Sixtus I begins his reign (-125). 117 Persecution of Christians under Hadrian (-138).
**120s
125
* Pope St. Telesphorus begins his reign (-136).130s*c.130 Birth of St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Church Father and bishop. He had heard St. Polycarp in Smyrna. He wrote a famous treatise, Against Heresies, refuting Gnosticism, and intervened in favour of the Quartodecimians when they were excommunicated by Pope Victor I for not observing Easter according the Roman Calendar (i.e. the first Sunday after the full moon after the Spring equinox).
135 Emperor Hadrian excludes Jews from Jerusalem. 136 Pope St. Hyginus accedes to the see of Peter (-140).
**140s
140
* Election of Pope St. Pius I (-155). 144 Marcion of Pontus is excommunicated for heresy (Marcionism): he believed that the God of the Old Testament is a different God than that of the new, and that he is a vengeful God; he denied the inspiration of the Old Testament. Marcionites established a parallel church that survived for several centuries.
**150s
155** Death of Pope St. Pius I. St. Anicetus becomes Pope (-166). c. 156 Martyrdom of St. Polycarp, disciple of St. John the apostle. First recorded instance of devotion to a martyr and the devotion to relics in the Martyrdom of Polycarp.
160s
c. 160 Birth of Tertullian, Church Father. Tertullian apostatized to the Montanist sect and in his later years rejected the Catholic Church. However, in his earlier years, c. 200 AD, he justified Catholic belief against heretics by appealing to the apostolic origin of the Church, whereas the heretics and their heresies were subsequent to it.
*165 Death of St. Justin Martry (b. 100), Church Father. *166 St. Soter becomes Pope. (-175).
 
Dont waste your time. Your documents do not say what you say they do. Nor are they written at the time of the Apostles. So have another drink.
Why are you so afraid of the truth? If you are sure that we are wrong you will not afraid to read what jmcrae listed.

It seems to me that you prefer to remain in the dark because the light is too glaring.
 
Yes I know , but the way some say it that it all came from your roman catholic see now …There’s a bit of differance form what the Rome see teaches from back when they were together…I don’t deny there were bishop of bishops BUT they were still together and accountable to each other. Just like when your pope Peter was rebuked…Think of what was said when they were arguing I’m of Paul, I’m of Appolos…
To clarify that rebuke. Paul’s rebuke did not mean that he was somehow better than Peter. What he was doing was taking Peter to task by not following through with what he (Peter) received in a revelation.

Peter was not accountable to Paul but only accountable to Christ. This is what Paul was trying to explain when He rebuked Peter.
 
I think this post needs emphasizing so I am putting this in bold.
You know, I’m really curious

If Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc. were not Catholic Christians what were they?

Catholic - universal.

As far as the “Roman” part goes, that “addition” was TACKED ON to us by Protestants. While the terminology is used (even by us, often because we live or work in countries that are Protestant and have applied the terminology and dinned it into everyone’s head) and partly because it’s in charity to our Protestant brothers who have grown accustomed to it and wouldn’t recognize us if we DIDN’T call ourselves Roman, it is NOT the ‘official’ name of the Church.

**The official name (please go to the Vatican web site if you don’t believe me) is “The Catholic Church”. **
 
Who wrote catholic history?
The catholics.
Who says the catholic system was handed down by Peter?
The catholics.
Who says the apostles were Catholics?
The catholics.
Maan google a little bit will you. Your ignorance is beginning to get exasperating.
NOTICE something there? Its just YOU. Its just what YOU claim. You can accuse us of not following YOUR history, you can accuse us of not following the Pope that YOU designated, and you can accuse us of not recognizing the apostles as catholics as YOU labeled them.

Its just YOU, and your own perception.
No facts, petal, facts. Okay, get a book called European History for dummies. That was not written by a Catholic.

In this day and age of the internet, there is no excuse for that level of ignorance especially when you are posting.
So…Yes, I am sticking with Jesus, and I’m not about to extend that embrace to anyone else that YOU claim is representative.
No you are not. As I mentioned before you are sticking by yourself because you persistently and purposely ignore anything that He said that doesn’t jive with the belief of the almighty mosacked.
Because everything that you claim is really just YOU.
As I have said before if you will do a bit of reading then you will know what I mean. Please go get started. It really is not that hard.
“I am the Truth, the Way and the Life. NO man goes to the Father except through me” - Jesus.
And the Truth who is Christ, built a Church which is the foundation of Truth. 😉 And yes, you can find that in the Bible/
  • If you only knew the Holy Ghost. You wouldn’t be a catholic.
If you will only take my advice and read you will not be this ignorant.
 
I guess the best way to say is the bible was assembled by christians moved by the Holy Spirti from the combined sees of what was now the Orthodox and Catholic churches…Whether one see had preeminence it was done as a whole and they still were accountable to each other…They are now divided and one see cannot claim it was just their doing… 😉 If you think they just said "sure Peter(or who ever was in the spot) what ever you say, I think you might be surprised when we finally know all things on the other side…Whether one was preeminent or not it was a team effort…With just not one see taking the “credit”…As some see to imply…Happy Thanksgiving to all…And to all a good morning…
 
  • If you only knew the Holy Ghost. You wouldn’t be a catholic.
Which brings us to the question that no one has ever been able to answer:

If the Catholic Church is not the Church that Christ founded, then where is the Church that Christ founded?

Do not say “an invisible Church” because the Church of the Book of Acts is a visible, hierarchical Church with earthly authority (remember Ananias and Saphira, who were killed by God when they lied to St. Peter).

What would we be, if not Catholic?

Find me the Church that has been here in a continuous visible authoritative presence from 33 AD until now, with no breaks, and no periods of invisibility.
 
benedictus2:

Might I suggest you try a little patience and charity in your responses to an uninformed “Christian”? I know it is frustrating, and aggravating, to try to get one past the lie and myth about Catholicism, but the more you persist the greater the resistance to the truth. Sooner or later ( sooner I hope ), he will listen to the Holy Spirit’s promptings and fully realize he was in error. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Maan google a little bit will you. Your ignorance is beginning to get exasperating.

No facts, petal, facts. Okay, get a book called European History for dummies. That was not written by a Catholic.

In this day and age of the internet, there is no excuse for that level of ignorance especially when you are posting.

No you are not. As I mentioned before you are sticking by yourself because you persistently and purposely ignore anything that He said that doesn’t jive with the belief of the almighty mosacked.

As I have said before if you will do a bit of reading then you will know what I mean. Please go get started. It really is not that hard.

And the Truth who is Christ, built a Church which is the foundation of Truth. 😉 And yes, you can find that in the Bible/

If you will only take my advice and read you will not be this ignorant.
Firstly, I believe Jesus established the church, but its NOT a physical church, its a spiritual church. That church is found all across the world and across denominations. It is not THE catholic church NOR THE Lutherans, NOR THE protestants etc etc.

Just think…today there are tons of ‘bad news’ coming from the Catholics, and not just today…history too has loads of it. IF…just assuming IF…it is the system and the sacraments themselves that saves and NOT the person’s obedience, personal and direct relationship with God. Then instead of letting those who obey God to enter the heavenly kingdom, the heaven that we talk about will have loads of…‘sexual offenders’.

NOW…Jesus said, those who belong to Him will worship in Truth and Spirit. Not through purgatories & sacraments.
  • Want to know why I don’t believe? Because to me, it is outrageous to think that I need to go through somebody else to reach my Father, when my Father is with me all this while.
.
 
Firstly, I believe Jesus established the church, but its NOT a physical church, its a spiritual church. That church is found all across the world and across denominations. It is not THE catholic church NOR THE Lutherans, NOR THE protestants etc etc.

Just think…today there are tons of ‘bad news’ coming from the Catholics, and not just today…history too has loads of it. IF…just assuming IF…it is the system and the sacraments themselves that saves and NOT the person’s obedience, personal and direct relationship with God. Then instead of letting those who obey God to enter the heavenly kingdom, the heaven that we talk about will have loads of…‘sexual offenders’.

NOW…Jesus said, those who belong to Him will worship in Truth and Spirit. Not through purgatories & sacraments.
  • Want to know why I don’t believe? Because to me, it is outrageous to think that I need to go through somebody else to reach my Father, when my Father is with me all this while.
.
Boy are you way out of the ball park! What do you read in Matthew 16:18-19? If that is not a physical Church then what is it? We, the Church do worship Him in truth and spirit.
Because you don’t believe doesn’t make it so. Please wake up and smell the coffee.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
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