The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[Javl]

I think you are addressing different issues.

The issue before us is if it is historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible. All of it, from Genesis 1:1-Revelation 22:21. Not Jews, not Catholics, not parts, not acknowledging, not correcting, but IT gave us the Bible - and all it contains.

While I’d agree that the Founder of the one holy catholic church - the communion of saints (Jesus) was Jewish by race, that does not mean that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible.

Then who, in your opinion gave us the Bible?

Certainly. Do you believe that the OT is part of the Bible as a whole? IF the often made claim and the issue of this thread is true, and The Catholic Church gave us the Bible, then The Catholic Church MUST have given us the OT - and every part of it. So, if you want to argue that the claim is true, then begin with The Ten Commandments (generally regarded as the oldest part of the Bible - around 1400 BC) and show that The Catholic Church gave that. Then progress through all the material, documenting that each and every bit was given by The Catholic Church, finishing with Revelation (thought to be the newest part - around 95 AD) to show it all given by The Catholic Church.

This is where you are confused. The OT is part of the Bible. and the Church did not give us the OT. There was no such thing as the Bible before the Catholic Church assembled it. Do you know what the word Bible means?

What popes of The Catholic Church existed before 1400 BC? That’s when the Bible began to come into existance. Or is your point that the Bible was given retroactively - that The Ten Commandments actually didn’t exist until some pope cause them and then he wrote a story about Moses coming down the mountain with them? Is THAT your point?

Now you are getting ridiculous in your assertions and statements. Again there was no such thing as the Bible before the CC assembled it. There were only Scriptures. No assembly of them until the Jews comprised the Tanakh which contained the first five Books of Moses and a few others.

Try looking at the timeline for each of the books of the Bible - from Genesis through Revelation. IF you do, you’ll discover that even IF the Catholic Church’s claim for when it came into existence is true, then about 2/3’s of the Bible COULD NOT have been given by The Catholic Chruch - it didn’t even EXIST!

Read posts 556 and 558. Even for the New Testament, there’s ZERO evidence that The Catholic Church had ANYTHING to do with ANY of those books - or the embrace of such as the inspired word. It didn’t do ANYTHING remotely related to this issue for CENTURIES AFTER the fact.

Now you’re really way off the mark. The CC did not, and does not, claim to have written the Bible. The Bible did not exist as such until the Council of Trent finalized the collection of books and letters that it considered inspired from among the spurious and irellevant ones that were in circulation at the time. If the CC did not do this you would not know which of the myriad of these writings were inspired and which were not. The book which we, and you, all call the Bible was given to us by the Catholic Church and it cannot be proven otherwise. Even Protestant Scholars and Theologians agree to this.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[jen_fla]

That’s a brilliant analogy.

thanks. sometimes my bamaged drain actually works! :tiphat:

 

[jen_fla]

I think you are addressing different issues.

The issue before us is if it is historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible. All of it, from Genesis 1:1-Revelation 22:21. Not Jews, not Catholics, not parts, not acknowledging, not correcting, but IT gave us the Bible - and all it contains.

While I’d agree that the Founder of the one holy catholic church - the communion of saints (Jesus) was Jewish by race, that does not mean that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible.

Certainly. Do you believe that the OT is part of the Bible as a whole? IF the often made claim and the issue of this thread is true, and The Catholic Church gave us the Bible, then The Catholic Church MUST have given us the OT - and every part of it. So, if you want to argue that the claim is true, then begin with The Ten Commandments (generally regarded as the oldest part of the Bible - around 1400 BC) and show that The Catholic Church gave that. Then progress through all the material, documenting that each and every bit was given by The Catholic Church, finishing with Revelation (thought to be the newest part - around 95 AD) to show it all given by The Catholic Church.

What popes of The Catholic Church existed before 1400 BC? That’s when the Bible began to come into existance. Or is your point that the Bible was given retroactively - that The Ten Commandments actually didn’t exist until some pope cause them and then he wrote a story about Moses coming down the mountain with them? Is THAT your point?

Try looking at the timeline for each of the books of the Bible - from Genesis through Revelation. IF you do, you’ll discover that even IF the Catholic Church’s claim for when it came into existence is true, then about 2/3’s of the Bible COULD NOT have been given by The Catholic Chruch - it didn’t even EXIST!

Read posts 556 and 558. Even for the New Testament, there’s ZERO evidence that The Catholic Church had ANYTHING to do with ANY of those books - or the embrace of such as the inspired word. It didn’t do ANYTHING remotely related to this issue for CENTURIES AFTER the fact.

.

:banghead:

ok, let’s start over.

why don’t you give us a definition of the Bible?

 

[Hisalone]

No. That’s when Moses started writing the book of Leviticus. He was certainly not thinking “Bible” at that time. Rather, he was thinking that it would be good to get some of those old stories about God and the people of God down in writing, so that all of the Levites would be using the same text during the primitive Liturgy.

The Bible is a codex of 73 books all together in one set of covers, in one language.

Moses didn’t have a Bible. He had five books (at best - not everything in the Five Books of Moses was necessarily written by Moses, most notably, the stories about his death and about the things that took place after his death) that were used by the Levites in their primitive Liturgy.

However, he was lacking 68 of the 73 Books of the Bible.

Many scholars beleive Job to predate Moses.

 

[jmcrae]

Many scholars beleive Job to predate Moses.

That’s possible. Do you believe that the person who wrote the Book of Job was thinking about the Bible?

 

[Hisalone]

Then who, in your opinion gave us the Bible?

This is where you are confused. The OT is part of the Bible. and the Church did not give us the OT. There was no such thing as the Bible before the Catholic Church assembled it. Do you know what the word Bible means?

Now you are getting ridiculous in your assertions and statements. Again there was no such thing as the Bible before the CC assembled it. There were only Scriptures. No assembly of them until the Jews comprised the Tanakh which contained the first five Books of Moses and a few others.

Now you’re really way off the mark. The CC did not, and does not, claim to have written the Bible. The Bible did not exist as such until the Council of Trent finalized the collection of books and letters that it considered inspired from among the spurious and irellevant ones that were in circulation at the time. If the CC did not do this you would not know which of the myriad of these writings were inspired and which were not. The book which we, and you, all call the Bible was given to us by the Catholic Church and it cannot be proven otherwise. Even Protestant Scholars and Theologians agree to this.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Why is it so difficult for you ----God gave us the bible.

Catholics want the bible to be subject to them, the bible subserviant to the Catholic Church. The Reformation reestablished the bible to its rightfull place. The Church is the sevant of the word of God The word of God is not the servant of the curch.

 

[Hisalone]

That’s possible. Do you believe that the person who wrote the Book of Job was thinking about the Bible?

Of course God wrote the bible, God knows the end of a thing from the beginning.

 

[jmcrae]

Of course God wrote the bible, God knows the end of a thing from the beginning.

God didn’t write the Book of Job. The only words of the Bible written by God are the Ten Commandments, and somehow we have two versions of these - one in Exodus, and one in Deuteronomy.

God was the inspiration for the Book of Job (and also for the rest of the books of the Bible), just as a sunset can be the inspiration for a painting.

 

[Hisalone]

God didn’t write the Book of Job. The only words of the Bible written by God are the Ten Commandments, and somehow we have two versions of these - one in Exodus, and one in Deuteronomy.

God was the inspiration for the Book of Job (and also for the rest of the books of the Bible), just as a sunset can be the inspiration for a painting.

When we say the bible is the inspired word of God we mean that it was literally God breathed, at least that is what you church teaches. I happen to agree.

 

[jmcrae]

When we say the bible is the inspired word of God we mean that it was literally God breathed, at least that is what you church teaches. I happen to agree.

Human beings, acting under God’s inspiration, wrote it. They were the authors; not God in person. God prevented them from writing anything contrary to moral and theological truth, but the writers (who were human beings) were not thinking “This is going to be in the Bible.” Such an idea did not yet exist.

 

[jen_fla]

Why is it so difficult for you ----God gave us the bible.

Catholics want the bible to be subject to them, the bible subserviant to the Catholic Church. The Reformation reestablished the bible to its rightfull place. The Church is the sevant of the word of God The word of God is not the servant of the curch.

please explain to me how the “Reformation reestablished the bible to its rightfull place.”

the organization that is the Catholic Church existed before the Bible did. the Bible is a Catholic book.

council of rome 382 AD (under the authority of Pope Damasus I) - the books to be accepted as OT and NT was settled.

organizations are made of people that yak and disagree so disagreements came up… however…

the same identical list of books was reaffirmed again at Hippo 393 and again at carthage in 397 AD.

in 405 Pope Innocent I reaffirmed the canon again.

but wait, there’s more!

Another council at Carthage, this one in the year 419, reaffirmed the canon of its predecessors and asked Pope Boniface to “confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.” All of these canons were identical to the modern Catholic Bible, and all of them included the deuterocanonicals.

This exact same canon was implicitly affirmed at the seventh ecumenical council, II Nicaea (787), which approved the results of the 419 Council of Carthage, and explicitly reaffirmed at the ecumenical councils of Florence (1442), Trent (1546), Vatican I (1870), and Vatican II (1965).

thank you james akin for the part in blue.

that is history. the removal of books we see today in the king james bible is a new thing in relation to the history of Christianity. these are simply facts. if you want to say the KJV is better than that would be a matter of your opinion, but to deny that the CC decided what books would go into the collection of writings that would later be known as the Bible is something that any theology professor would fail you for.

 

[Javl]

Why is it so difficult for you ----God gave us the bible.

Catholics want the bible to be subject to them, the bible subserviant to the Catholic Church. The Reformation reestablished the bible to its rightfull place. The Church is the sevant of the word of God The word of God is not the servant of the curch.

So God sat down with pen and ink at a desk and wrote the entire Bible? Now you sound like a Jehovahs Witness. Is that what you are, disguising yourself as a Protestant? And the Reformation DID NOT reestablish it to its rightful place for it was never gone from there. The Church is the body of Jesus Christ. He said that He, as God, is the Church.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Mosacked]

Ok, i’ll bite. So what happens when one christian says you’ll go to hell if you dance and another says you won’t? How bout when one christian says all you have to do to be saved is recite some sentences (that are not in the bible) and another says nope. How bout when some churches say you must confess your sins and other churches say you don’t have to? How bout the one christian who truly believes the holy spirit is talking to him and it is his poor understanding that god hates homosexuals? How bout the christians that think the eucharist truly is christ and the others that say it’s a symbol?

Answer: Fighting and discord. Come on, the bible is a very difficult read. Layers upon layers, do you really think god who ordered everything just so in our universe would leave us in chaos?

And for the record christ is our master, not the adorable pope we have. The explanation you were given regarding the function of the prime minister while the king was away explains the analogy perfectly. Please go reread that again.

You also might want to do a search on this forum regarding infallibility. I have to laugh (well not really) everytime i hear someone say we worship the pope and believe he can’t sin. I am glad you are here to at least get the facts straight.

Peace.

That’s why those who belong to him have the holy spirit as witness that calls out ‘abba! Father!’. it is the counselor that guides and teaches, not humans.

.

 

[PRmerger]

Then who, in your opinion gave us the Bible?

Josiah has already admitted that it was “Believers”. :dancing:

That is HUGE. A great first step.

Because now it’s quite easy to show that these “Believers” were Catholic–in name, in practice, in belief, in action, in doctrine. They had the papacy, the Eucharist, the priesthood, the liturgy, the veneration of Mary, prayer for the dead…things I’m guessing his church doesn’t have but…the Catholic Church still has to this day!

 

[jen_fla]

That’s why those who belong to him have the holy spirit as witness that calls out ‘abba! Father!’. it is the counselor that guides and teaches, not humans.

.

yes, you are correct. it is the Holy Spirit that guides and teaches (the Truth), not humans. we are in agreement and i bet you still don’t know how that is possible, but trust me we are!

and we would both agree that the Holy Spirit is consistent and doesn’t change His mind or go around telling one person they should confess their sins to one another and then on another day change his mind and tell a different group you don’t have to.

so please tell me how it is we have literally tens of thousands of different “teachings” being taught amongst the newer Christian Churches? how do you really know that you aren’t being taught by your subconscious or a demon to lead you astray?

you know what… don’t answer that or we’ll really go off topic. spend some time reading through the tons of threads around here discussing if the bible is the only thing you need. maybe you should become familiar with the topic and then come back to this one. if you keep on reading, it’s like your lens will zoom out and you’ll start to get a much larger picture and then perhaps things will make sense.

i haven’t read through much of this one, but there are many if you do a “sola scriptura” search.

another nail for the sola scriptura coffin

keep searching mosacked, the pieces of the puzzle are out there.

peace and well wishes.

 

[jen_fla]

i just read through that thread i gave you above and the debates were not that engaging.

i think this link will give you better material to peruse.

 

[benedictus2]

Why is it so difficult for you ----God gave us the bible.

True. But how did He give it to us. Did He take pen and paper and write the OT then sent Jesus down to earth to write the NT? Or did He drop it all from the sky?

You really cannot hide from the fact that God WILLED that His Word in the New Testament be written by members of His Church, the Catholic Church. Otherwise, instead of starting a Church, Jesus would have simply sat down, written everythign He wanted to say and then told those hovering around Him, “here, follow this”.

But that He did NOT DO. Wake up to that fact. He WILLED the Church into being because He wanted His word to come to us THIS WAY.

Catholics want the bible to be subject to them, the bible subserviant to the Catholic Church.

Hmm you are being rather illogical here. How you can make a book subject to you? How can you make a book subservient to you? Does not make sense at all.

The Reformation reestablished the bible to its rightfull place.

No, the reformation got it so terribly wrong.

Even Calvin and Luther realize they were in a quandary when:

In 1534, a radical apocalytic group in Munster set up an indepedent theocratic state based on a literal reading of scripture which licensed polygamy, condemned all violence and outlawed private ownership. This short lived experiment lasted only a year but it alarmed the reformers.

**"If there was no authoritative body to control biblical reading, how could anybody know who was right? Who will give our conscience sure information about which party is teaching us the pure Word of God, we or our opponents. Is every fanatic to have the right to teach whatever he pleases? "–**Martin Luther

Calvin agrees.

"If everyone has a right to be judge and arbiter on this matter, nothing can be set down as certain and our whole religion will be full of uncertainty. — John Calvin**.**

(reference: :On the Bible" by Karen Armstrong)

The Church is the sevant of the word of God The word of God is not the servant of the curch.

Wrong again. The Church is the custodian of the Word of God. The Church came first whether you like it or not. You may insist on blinding yourself to this fact but that is all you are doing… blinding yourself.

 

[Javl]

mosaked:

How about answering some of my questions? I’m still waiting.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Anna_Scott]

mosaked:

How about answering some of my questions? I’m still waiting.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl:

You might want to put on a pot of coffee, and read the Saturday paper. :coffeeread:

You are in for a long wait.

Anna

 

[Javl]

thanks. sometimes my bamaged drain actually works! :tiphat:

Tripping over your tongue again? Huh?

PAX DOMINI :signof the cross:

Shalom Aleichem