The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

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The issue of this thread is not what Luther thought, it’s whether it is historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us all the material of the Bible - from Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21.
No, the Catholic Church did not write the complete Bible from Genesis to Revelation. No Christians did. Catholics wrote and the Catholic Church canonized the New Testament only. The Catholic Church also canonized the Old Testament used by Christians in the west from the 4th century to 16th century; it was based on the Septuagint of the 2nd century BC.
 
Javi,
I have had the writings of Josephus for quote a while now. It seems that he copied much of his “Antiquities of the Jews” from the Tanakh. I recognized many passages from Exodus in his writings.

Also in Book XVIII of “Antiquities” the is a short reference to Jesus of Nazareth which as been proved by biblical scholars to be later forged Christian additions.

Would you please obey the rules of this Forum and don’t preach to me. I have never preached anywhere on the Forum and never will. You have your beliefs and I have mine. No prosletyzing will change my mind ever.
Please understand, I DO NOT PREACH, nor do I proselytize, and I do know the forum rules. I make statements and comments to help further understandings.

As for Josephus, how else could he report on the Jews to a non-Jew? His writings are a history. There is no doubt whatever that he did copy from the Tanakh, but he also added commentaries for clarification and understanding. And yes, the reference to Jesus may have been forged, since the style of writing is different. But whatever you say, it is important to the history of Judaism.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
AmericanJosiah:

You statement that the early Church was informal and underground is quite erroneous. Where did you get that info from? The only place it was underground was in Rome during the persecutions under some of the Emperors, and even then some gathered and worshipped openly. The early church was well organized,with presbyters and bishops in each community. They were not a rag-tag bunch that gathered whenever they could. They were also quite open in the outer provinces of the empire.

Also your explanation of God giving us the Bible is fairly close to what we have been trying to explain to you, but you refuse to understand and accept our explanation. I guess your anti-Catholic bias just gets in the way. We received all the scriptures from God, but the Catholic Church is the one that put all these true and inspired scriptures together to form what we call the Bible. If you still don’t understand, then you have a problem.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Let’s talk about the Council of Nicea. Here is the Wikipedia article:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Here is the Catholoc Encyclopaedia article:
newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

A few obsevations. There are no accounts, “minutes” of the proceedings in existence. It seems that Constantine made no profision for them to be take. Strange for a Council of that importance.

The Pope, Sylvester I did not attend. There are a lot more facts but I gather many here will not want to know the truth. You can’t handle the truth.
 
Getting back to the subject, may I ask of those that deny that the CC gave us the Bible two questions?

1 ) What is the definition of Bible?
The books collected together that Christians believe is the Word of God
2 ) Who put the Bible together?
It was put together ultimately by God through the Holy Spirit as the books were collected that were considered inspired. No one organization put the Bible together, most Churches had said what makes up the Bible for them from the collected works.
 
The books collected together that Christians believe is the Word of God
Correct.
It was put together ultimately by God through the Holy Spirit as the books were collected that were considered inspired. No one organization put the Bible together, most Churches had said what makes up the Bible for them from the collected works.
No use answering this one. It’s been explained many times over, but you refuse to listen and understand. Your anti-Catholic rhetoric is quite evident.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Then how did The Catholic Church give us The Ten Commandments (unless your Bible deletes that part)?
They gave it when they decided that it was inspired and not to be discarded like, say, the Bagavhad Gita.

You would not know that the Ten Commandments is inspired were it not for the CC telling you it is! 🤷
 
Various Christians (but don’t **dare **call them Catholic Christians because according to Josiah "Catholic Christians"did not exist then) wrote the New Testament.
Perhaps he wouldn’t object if we called them “Christians who participated in the Liturgy and believed in the Real Presence and venerated Mary and prayed to Saints and prayed for the dead”? 😛

For that is what those early Christians (who Josiah acknowledges gave us the Bible) believed.
 
Let’s talk about the Council of Nicea. Here is the Wikipedia article:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Here is the Catholoc Encyclopaedia article:
newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

A few obsevations. There are no accounts, “minutes” of the proceedings in existence. It seems that Constantine made no profision for them to be take. Strange for a Council of that importance.

The Pope, Sylvester I did not attend. There are a lot more facts but I gather many here will not want to know the truth. You can’t handle the truth.
Eccles, when they came together at the council they were already one church then. Those bishops belonged to the same Church, the Catholic Church…

So yes, we can handle the truth. So long as you dong distort them.🙂
 
The books collected together that Christians believe is the Word of God
I’ve asked this many times over before but perhaps you will be the one who will finally give the answer.

How do you know that the Bible is the Word of God?
It was put together ultimately by God through the Holy Spirit as the books were collected that were considered inspired.
How? How did God put these books together? Did He get angels to come down and say this book is okay so include that in the bible; this book is not so discard that?

How?
No one organization put the Bible together, most Churches had said what makes up the Bible for them from the collected works.
How many churches were there back then. Which churches?

Your answers would be greatly appreciated. 🙂
 
You would not know that the Ten Commandments is inspired were it not for the CC telling you it is! 🤷
So, how did the Hebrews know they were inspired? Did The Catholic Church tell them in 1400 BC? 🤷

History reveals that most of the Bible was written and regarded as Scripture before even The Catholic Church itself exclusively claims that it came into existence, making the often made Catholic claim incredible on the face of it.

NOTHING did ANYTHING in this regard until the late 4th century. By then, all Scripture had been written, 1800 - 300 years earlier!!! And what was and was not regarded as Scripture had already been determined. As history shows and as my Catholic teachers taught, The Catholic Church acknowledged the corpus of Scripture - it didn’t form or give or create it. BTW, most other denominations have done exactly the same thing - nothin’ unique about The Catholic Church doing so also.

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Consider the Old Testament (just as much a part of the Bible as the New Testament). The material there was written between 1400 BC and 400 BC, making all of it at least 1430 - 430 years older than even The Catholic Church’s exclusive and unsubstantiated claim for when it came into existence, making it IMPOSSIBLE for it to have had anything to do with it. And most of it was regarded as Scripture CENTURIES before The Catholic Church’s own claim of rwhen it came into existence. So unless you are stating that The Old Testament is not Scripture and is absent from Bibles, then this often made Catholic claim is IMPOSSIBLE.

Let’s see if it even works for the New Testament (roughly only ONE THIRD of the Bible)…

All the Books of the NT were written by 95 AD. This is nearly THREE CENTURIES before The Catholic Church claims that it did ANYTHING WHATSOEVER in regard to Scriptures - the Council of Hippo.

Let’s review the history:

The New Testament Canon (the smallest part of the biblical canon of books)

First Century:
  1. The “heart of the Canon” is often regarded to be Paul’s epistles. By the time 2 Peter was written (perhaps 70 AD), they seem to be regarding as normative and referred to as Scriptures (2 Peter 3:15-16). Many theologians - conservative and liberal - give great importance to Paul’s works as perhaps the theological framework for that which was later added. So, by 70 AD, we have perhaps half of the NT books in some aspect of a Canon. A bit later, Clement and others also speak of “Paul’s letters” in this way, indicating a canonical status.
  2. The Synoptic Gospels (written between 45 - 65) also seem to have been quickly and nearly universally seen as canonical. They were “published” together - as a single tome - as early as 115 and were very common. They too are repeatedly spoken of as canonical.
By this point, we have a fairly solid canon of 18 of our 27 NT books. And The Catholic Church had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it. This is CENTURIES before the meeting at Hippo.

Second Century:

Many early writers not only reveal a knowledge of NT books, but refer to them specially - as Scripture. Clement points to Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians and maybe Titus. The Shepherd of Hermas (140) quotes from Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Hebrews, 1 & 2 Peter, Revelation and James. Ignatius (d.117) speaks of “all of Paul’s epistles” authoritatively, he frequently uses normative quotes from Matthew, John and Acts as well. Tatian (c 170) writes that all Christians recognize that there are four Gospel books. Irenaeus also mentions that Christians accept only four Gospel books, he too speaks of “all Paul’s epistles” and quotes from 1 Peter and 1 John. He speaks of these as a parallel of the Old Testament - having equal authority (ie being normative and canonical). Tertullian (d. 220) quotes authoritatively and normatively from all 4 Gospels, all the Pauline epistles, Acts, 1 Peter, 1 John, Jude and Revelation. All these reveal that much of the NT canon was in place by the end of the Second Century.

We now seem to have a consensus around 20 of the 27 books. And obviously, The Catholic Church has had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with any of this, it hasn’t done ANYTHING about ANY of this.

Continues in next post…

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Continues from the post above…

Third Century:

At the beginning, we seem to have a rather solid canonical list of 20 of the 27 books. They are the Pauline letters (13), the 4 Gospels, Acts, 1 Peter and 1 John. The great majority of the Canon is in place. But a few books - including those eventually being dismissed - were still not embraces with a solid consensus.

Cpyrian of Carthage (d. 258) says that Christians accept 21 books: Paul’s 13 (in all these lists, nearly always mentioned first), the 4 Gospels, Acts, First Peter, First John and revelation. They are referenced as normative and canonical.

Origin (d. 255) also reports on the status of the books as regarded by Christians. He places them into two groups: Homologoumena (all embrace) as 21 books - the same as Cyprian’s list. Antilegomena (challenged) as 10 - they are Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, James, Jude (all which would eventually be accepted) and also Barnabas, Hermas, Didache and the Gospel of the Hebrews (all of which would soon be rejected).

The NT Canon is now seems solid for 21 of the 27 books. And obviously, The Catholic Church has had nothing whatsoever to do with any of this. It hasn’t done ANYTHING about any of this. The referenced meetings at Hippo and Carthage are FAR in the future.

Fourth Century:

By this time, there is an embrace of 21 books - and has been for a long time. the only “debate” centers around 5- 6 that eventually were embraced, and a handful soon to be dropped. The core of 21 is now very solid and unquestioned.

Eusebius (d. 340) wrote that Christians all accept 21 books. He lists 4 as ones accepted by most but not by all: James, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John (all eventually embraced). And he lists some as “spurious” - Acts of Paul, Shepherd of Hermas, Apocalypse of Peter, the Didache. Most historians fully agree on this situation, although one of that solid 21 (Revelation) some historians think was more debated than Eusebius seems to indicate.

Cyril of Jerusalem (d. 350) does the same for us, listing the books that all Christians embrace as Holy Scripture. His list is the final Canon, except that Revelation was left out, giving us 26 (Matthew - Jude)

There now seems to be little debate at all, a consensus seem pretty solid - God’s people settling on a pretty solid list. Although some historians believe that Revelation was still more disputed in the East.

Athanasius of Alexandria (d. 373) Once again, we have someone telling us what we want to know: What books were Christians embracing as Holy Scripture - the NT Canon? He lists them: It’s our 27. He does mention the Didache and Hermas as “associated with” but clearly as inferior and below the 27.

Christians have a canonical list of 27. And The Catholic Church has had nothing whatsoever to do with any of this. It hasn’t done ANYTHING.

Early Meetings

Early meetings were usually not focused on stating a canon (such seems to have already been in place, with no need to state) but more with practical issues of the lectionary - what would be the Sunday readings.

The Council of Laodicea (363) Really just a regional synod and in no sense an ecumenical council says that “uncanonical books are not to be read in the churches.” While it mentions none by name, clearly all knew what was and was not a “canonical book” since there was no need whatsoever to specify which were so regarded. The canon already existed - clearly - in everyone’s mind. There’s no indication that this is an exclusive meeting of The Catholic Church. In any case, it’s too late to have any bearing and didn’t officially address the issue.

The Council of Hippo (393) Again just a regional meeting, this is the first official meeting that can be regarded as a denomination action, and since the bishops attending appear to have SOME special relationship to the bishop in Rome, Catholics like to claim this as a meeting of The Catholic Church. It specifically listing exactly what that canon of books is. It’s our 27, the 27 that had been clearly embraced as such for several decades (and in most cases, since the First Century). It AFFIRMS or ACKNOWLEDGES what already is the case. It “gives” or “creates” or “forms” NOTHING. It affirms and acknowledges and embraces. And it had no bearing at all on anything - except perhaps for the book of Revelation - which did not have a solid consensus, but Hippo resolved nothing in that regard, it continued to be debated for centuries after Hippo and often was not included in Sunday lectionaries even after Hippo

The Third Council of Carthage (397) This again listed the by now very well established NT Canon, already agreed upon by consensus by Christians. It’s the now familiar 27. Catholic often point to this one since it’s the first action vis-a-vis this topic that has any authority. But note the date! By then, Scirpture has existed for 300 to 1800 years!!! It didn’t write or give or create a single word of it! And by then, the issue of what is and is not Scripture had largely been resolved (partly for 1800 years!). Again, it is an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT, not a formation.

Since then, hundreds upon hundreds of gatherings of various types have confirmed this consensus that Christians developed and which later these councils acknowledged.

Augustine (352-430): “…the canon has been established *for *the church. This is the function of the Holy Spirit.” John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., The Works of Saint Augustine, Newly Discovered Sermons, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 162C.15 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 176.

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So, how did the Hebrews know they were inspired? Did The Catholic Church tell them in 1400 BC? 🤷
I find that question quite peculiar. Why would it matter what the Hebrews thought were inspired? Does it matter to you what the Hindus consider inspired?

(The Hebrews also believed it was wrong to eat shellfish)

[SIGN]The only reason you know that the Ten Commandments are inspired** is because the CC told you so.**[/SIGN]
 
Seems strange for a Lutheran to be arguing that the Catholic Church did not give us the Bible, since the entire purpose for the Lutheran sect’s existence is because it claims to be the true Catholic Church… Josiah is shooting himself in the foot, so to speak. If what the Catholic Church claims about the Bible isn’t true, then Lutheranism is twice as deceived.
 
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Consider the Old Testament (just as much a part of the Bible as the New Testament). The material there was written between 1400 BC and 400 BC, making all of it at least 1430 - 430 years older than even The Catholic Church’s exclusive and unsubstantiated claim for when it came into existence, making it IMPOSSIBLE for it to have had anything to do with it. And most of it was regarded as Scripture CENTURIES before The Catholic Church’s own claim of rwhen it came into existence. So unless you are stating that The Old Testament is not Scripture and is absent from Bibles, then this often made Catholic claim is IMPOSSIBLE.
 
I’ve asked this many times over before but perhaps you will be the one who will finally give the answer.

How do you know that the Bible is the Word of God?
I know it’s the Word of God because the spirit attest to it and the Holy Spirit guided the divines who convened in council what books made up the Holy Bible. In my case I hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith where it outlines what books make up the Holy Bible.
How? How did God put these books together? Did He get angels to come down and say this book is okay so include that in the bible; this book is not so discard that?
That is a very dumb question. The Holy Spirit guided the early Christians which books were and were not to be included
How many churches were there back then. Which churches?

Your answers would be greatly appreciated. 🙂
Could be many, at the time there were many competing interest. The roman church won out in the West and the Orthodox in the East, but there were other Christians who didn’t go for either. Just because an institution is a majority does not make it right or true.
 
IThat is a very dumb question.
charsan, just a friendly admonition: we do not talk this way here in the CAF. If you continue to say things such as the above, then, I guarantee you that very shortly you will receive a warning from the moderators, and then if you continue to disregard the friendly warnings, you will be banned. :sad_yes:
The Holy Spirit guided the early Christians which books were and were not to be included
Exactly. That is a very Catholic thing for you to say! 👍

It was these “early Christians”, who were bishops, that met in an ecumenical council that determined that the Gospel of Thomas was not inspired, but that the Gospel of Mark was. (BTW, these “early Christians” also worshipped through the Divine Liturgy, worshipped the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, baptized infants, prayed to saints, prayed for the dead and venerated Mary!)
 
I know it’s the Word of God because the spirit attest to it and the Holy Spirit guided the divines who convened in council what books made up the Holy Bible.
Just so we understand you: you are agreeing that Sacred Tradition determined what Sacred Scriptures would be included in the Bible, right?
 
charsan, just a friendly admonition: we do not talk this way here in the CAF. If you continue to say things such as the above, then, I guarantee you that very shortly you will receive a warning from the moderators, and then if you continue to disregard the friendly warnings, you will be banned. :sad_yes:
So your the boss now. There was nothing wrong with what I said, it was and remains a dumb question.
It was these “early Christians”, who were bishops, that met in an ecumenical council that determined that the Gospel of Thomas was not inspired, but that the Gospel of Mark was. (BTW, these “early Christians” also worshipped through the Divine Liturgy, worshipped the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, baptized infants, prayed to saints, prayed for the dead and venerated Mary!)
No the early Christians were not Catholic, that came later.
 
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