The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[HankZ]

Hank Z. - you said:

Really? According to you, He’s boxed into a finite book and has no other vehicle of teaching.

God is bound only by His character. In Him there is not a shadow of change. God loves because He is love. God judges justly because He is just. God does not lie, because He is honest. These and many other things, we find out about God by reading His word. His word enlightens us to the character of God, It does not bind Him.
The bible is the Living Word of God and will last forever. It is far from finite.

 

[twb1621]

Who Compiled the Old Testament?

The Church does not deny that there are ancient writings which are “apocryphal.” During the early Christian era, there were scores of manuscripts which purported to be Holy Scripture but were not. Many have survived to the present day, like the Apocalypse of Peter and the Gospel of Thomas, which all Christian churches regard as spurious writings that don’t belong in Scripture.

During the first century, the Jews disagreed as to what constituted the canon of Scripture. In fact, there were a large number of different canons in use, including the growing canon used by Christians. In order to combat the spreading Christian cult, rabbis met at the city of Jamnia or Javneh in A.D. 90 to determine which books were truly the Word of God. They pronounced many books, including the Gospels, to be unfit as scriptures. This canon also excluded seven books (Baruch, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, and the Wisdom of Solomon, plus portions of Esther and Daniel) that Christians considered part of the Old Testament.

The group of Jews which met at Javneh became the dominant group for later Jewish history, and today most Jews accept the canon of Javneh. However, some Jews, such as those from Ethiopia, follow a different canon which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament and includes the seven deuterocanonical books (cf. Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).

Needless to say, the Church disregarded the results of Javneh. First, a Jewish council after the time of Christ is not binding on the followers of Christ. Second, Javneh rejected precisely those documents which are foundational for the Christian Church – the Gospels and the other documents of the New Testament. Third, by rejecting the deuterocanonicals, Javneh rejected books which had been used by Jesus and the apostles and which were in the edition of the Bible that the apostles used in everyday life – the Septuagint.

The Apostles & the Deuteros

The Christian acceptance of the deuterocanonical books was logical because the deuterocanonicals were also included in the Septuagint, the Greek edition of the Old Testament which the apostles used to evangelize the world. Two thirds of the Old Testament quotations in the New are from the Septuagint. Yet the apostles nowhere told their converts to avoid seven books of it. Like the Jews all over the world who used the Septuagint, the early Christians accepted the books they found in it. They knew that the apostles would not mislead them and endanger their souls by putting false scriptures in their hands – especially without warning them against them.

But the apostles did not merely place the deuterocanonicals in the hands of their converts as part of the Septuagint. They regularly referred to the deuterocanonicals in their writings. For example, Hebrews 11 encourages us to emulate the heroes of the Old Testament and in the Old Testament “Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life” (Heb. 11:35).

There are a couple of examples of women receiving back their dead by resurrection in the Protestant Old Testament. You can find Elijah raising the son of the widow of Zarepheth in 1 Kings 17, and you can find his successor Elisha raising the son of the Shunammite woman in 2 Kings 4, but one thing you can never find – anywhere in the Protestant Old Testament, from front to back, from Genesis to Malachi – is someone being tortured and refusing to accept release for the sake of a better resurrection. If you want to find that, you have to look in the Catholic Old Testament – in the deuterocanonical books Martin Luther cut out of his Bible.

The story is found in 2 Maccabees 7, where we read that during the Maccabean persecution, “It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and cords, to partake of unlawful swine’s flesh. . . . **ut the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly, saying, 'The Lord God is watching over us and in truth has compassion on us . . . ’ After the first brother had died . . . they brought forward the second for their sport. . . . he in turn underwent tortures as the first brother had done. And when he was at his last breath, he said, ‘You accursed wretch, you dismiss us from this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up to an everlasting renewal of life’” (2 Macc. 7:1, 5-9).

One by one the sons die, proclaiming that they will be vindicated in the resurrection. “The mother was especially admirable and worthy of honorable memory. Though she saw her seven sons perish within a single day, she bore it with good courage because of her hope in the Lord. She encouraged each of them . . . [saying], ‘I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws,’” telling the last one, “Do not fear this butcher, but prove worthy of your brothers. Accept death, so that in God’s mercy I may get you back again with your brothers” (2 Macc. 7:20-23, 29).

This is but one example of the New Testaments’ references to the deuterocanonicals. The early Christians were thus fully justified in recognizing these books as Scripture, for the apostles not only set them in their hands as part of the Bible they used to evangelize the world, but also referred to them in the New Testament itself, citing the things they record as examples to be emulated.**

 

[twb1621]

FYI,
I see these long drawn out post, and skip right over them. Sorry, but I want to be honest with you. I don’t care to read that much in one post.

Doing so only causes continued ignorance to the Truth of the Word of God. But that’s your prerogative. I do what I can to offer the information to you, its up to you from there.

 

[Martin777]

I follow the same Gospel that’s been preached for 2000 years. I’m not sure you can honestly say that, my brother. Though I deeply admire your love for Christ, I mourn your ignorance of the Bride of Christ, the Church… The Catholic Church.

If I was correct in saying that you were preaching “Once Saved, Always Saved”, then I coil away from that heresy, for it is truly a foul and disgusting odor indeed, that has given poor sinners a false sense of eternal security for 400 or so years (truly a doctrine of man).

But if I was totally off-base in thinking you were not professing OSAS, then I’m truly sorry for misjudging your words.

I left the passage out…Show me something not covered in this passage that can result in a child of God being lost once they are saved. And note that ‘life…’ and ‘tribulation…’ are both situations that would make it very difficult not to sin. So tell me this passage doesn’t guarantee that once you are a child of God, He will see you through to the end, no matter what. Try to just read it as if you have never seen it before, and ask yourself what it really means. It is a wonderful passage. God Bless Here it is–
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8
36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[HankZ]

Doing so only causes continued ignorance to the Truth of the Word of God. But that’s your prerogative. I do what I can to offer the information to you, its up to you from there.

Do you claim to have all the answers to the truth of the word of God? A claim so strong is called being prideful. You know what happens when someone puffs themselves up don’t you? Read God’s word to find out.

 

[twb1621]

Do you claim to have all the answers to the truth of the word of God? A claim so strong is called being prideful. You know what happens when someone puffs themselves up don’t you? Read God’s word to find out.

Where did I claim that. I offer you what I can from the resources and information available. Thats being Christian. Your the one who acts as though you have all the answers and don’t need any other information. If I had all the answers you wouldn’t be debating me now would you… Actually I’d like nothing better than to discuss these things with all sincerity with you or any one but you tend to draw out the defensiveness with the wording you come off at times… although I guess I do too at times…

 

[Alindawyl]

I left the passage out…Show me something not covered in this passage that can result in a child of God being lost once they are saved. And note that ‘life…’ and ‘tribulation…’ are both situations that would make it very difficult not to sin. So tell me this passage doesn’t guarantee that once you are a child of God, He will see you through to the end, no matter what. Try to just read it as if you have never seen it before, and ask yourself what it really means. It is a wonderful passage. God Bless Here it is–

Romans 8:35-39

In that passage I see a guarantee that we cannot be separated from the love of God by any external force. What I do not see, however, is a guarantee that we are unable to voluntarily give up our faith through our own actions (or lack thereof).

 

[twb1621]

I left the passage out…Show me something not covered in this passage that can result in a child of God being lost once they are saved. And note that ‘life…’ and ‘tribulation…’ are both situations that would make it very difficult not to sin. So tell me this passage doesn’t guarantee that once you are a child of God, He will see you through to the end, no matter what. Try to just read it as if you have never seen it before, and ask yourself what it really means. It is a wonderful passage. God Bless Here it is–
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8
36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Martin, why is it you ignore alll the verses that pertain to what is asked of us but you will beat to death a few trying to refute the others. You said yourself you know that scripture doesn’t conflict with itself so lets think about it. KNowing that to be true, it would mean the combined scripture is correct and both are required. Thats just common sense. I know you have this belief system but to block everything else out doesn’t make it be as you would want it to be. I am not trying to take something away from you, I am trying to give you something in addition to what you have.

 

[twb1621]

I left the passage out…Show me something not covered in this passage that can result in a child of God being lost once they are saved. And note that ‘life…’ and ‘tribulation…’ are both situations that would make it very difficult not to sin. So tell me this passage doesn’t guarantee that once you are a child of God, He will see you through to the end, no matter what. Try to just read it as if you have never seen it before, and ask yourself what it really means. It is a wonderful passage. God Bless Here it is–
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8
36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It doesn’t discount sin or all the other verses you don’t like, martin… It is noting outside forces but not self chosen sinfulness.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NotWorthy,

You know, the patience and insight you have shared with Martin777 are inspiring in themselves. Maybe you can help me here.

What I find curious is that when given material directly from scripture that refutes this OSAS as a ‘teaching of man’, Martin777 responds by calling the Words of Christ, St. Mark, St. John, St. James and St. Paul “Legalism”. But, I must confess - he did get one thing right: .

You know, the Bible will flat mess up your theology!

Please consider the misreading of the Bible as having totally messed up Martin777’s theology. Do you think these would help him?

1.) Matt 25:35-46 - just look at all of those ‘WORKS’ that all of mankind is going to be judged upon (feeding the hungry, cloting the naked, visiting the imprisoned, etc.) And, just calling “Lord! Lord!” is not going very far.the Eternal Judge

2.) Acts 2: 37-38 - St Peter is fearlessly preacing the message of salvation on that first Pentecost Sunday under the guidance of the Holy Spirit - and his audience is convicted and ask what they are TO DO! Well, guess what - they really do have to DO something: “…repent and be Baptized…” is the message of that day - and the message of today.

This is where it gets tricky: you must have “1” and “2” from above - it is not just “1” or just “2”. but, you know, you just can not stop here.

3.) John 3:5 - We are to enter the Kingdom of God with Water and Spirit - and this is something that Christ clearly spelled out. Merely saying, “Lord! Lord!” fall short here, too.

4.) James 2:24 - the idea is not Faith versus Works, or Works versus Faith - each Christian is to perform Works from an enlivened Faith - a dead Faith or No Works does not meet the Standard set by Christ.

5.) Mark 8:34 - And what is that standard you may ask? Christ spells it out for all who want to hear: He told all of His followers to “Pick up their cross and follow me”. To pick some thing up is to DO something - actually… you guessed it … a WORK. But, for some - WORK is hard and not for everyone. What happens then to those who refuse to continue? Does OSAS have a place here? Glad you asked.

6.) Luke 9:62 Christ has an answer for that, too: “Any man putting his hand to the plow and then looking back is not fit for the kingdom of God.” It looks to me that OSAS does have a place - and that place is in the section marked: “Teaching of men” and not the “Teaching of God”

Now, maybe I have missed something here - but, I think if Martin777 looked at St. Paul’s teaching on ‘works’ he was referring to the Jews and their various rituals of washing of pots and cups, and how many steps one can take on the Sabbath, and what can and can not be done on particular days. Christ did not agree with them - not so much for the incredible subdivisions they had devised - but, that these numerous rules now were intended to trump the weighter measures of the Law: charity, honor, compassion.

7.) Luke 11:42 Christ called the Pharisees hypocrites because they paid tithes on mint and garden herbs but “…pay no attention to judgment and to love for God.”

In the scheme of things, I personally have fatigued of Martin777’s rants and calling people names and being non-Biblical. Getting a grip on his own bible and reading the New Testament cover to cover and just showing us where WORKS are not necessary (remember the citations above) and just wehre that OSAS is in the Bible may be helpful. As you know, merely lifting a verse out of context from St. Paul is not sufficient - the idea behind reading his own NT is so he can get a sense of the entire message. A snip here and one there is not the path to salvation - one must drink deeply of the Word of God and see why - with St. Paul who loved Jesus dearly - Paul was very cautious of his own potential to become a castaway (1Cor 9:27).

I was thinking that stressing the following ideas may be helpful for Martin777 to see the NT as entire message:
1- There is no doubt that Jesus died for all.
2- There is no doubt that God wills the salvation of all.
3- There is no doubt that God is unchangeable and that He knows all things.
4- There is also no doubt that we were created with a free will. A will that can choose what is Good or what is Evil.
5- The issue is not us being abandoned by God, but rather we abandoning Him.

Any other ideas on this, NotWorthy?.

God bless

 

[Church_Militant]

Do you claim to have all the answers to the truth of the word of God? A claim so strong is called being prideful. You know what happens when someone puffs themselves up don’t you? Read God’s word to find out.

Hey, if you want to be part of the discussion/debate, do your part and the read the responses, but don’t complain when someone goes to the trouble to answer and offers an extensive answer. It’s pretty disrespectful to ask someone for answers that you don’t really want.

Frankly, I think that that “short answer attitude” is one of the reasons that n-C religions are so fouled up.

Or is it that you aren’t really here to discuss or debate but to make baiting remarks and attempt to proselytize Catholics away from our most holy faith?

Honest discussion is always welcome, but if you don’t want to see what we answer with, then maybe you ought to reconsider being here.

Where did I claim that. I offer you what I can from the resources and information available. That’s being Christian. Your the one who acts as though you have all the answers and don’t need any other information. If I had all the answers you wouldn’t be debating me now would you… Actually I’d like nothing better than to discuss these things with all sincerity with you or any one but you tend to draw out the defensiveness with the wording you come off at times… although I guess I do too at times…

twb, I wouldn’t sweat it very much. It’s revealing that this guy makes a remark like that. We probably could put him on ignore since he doesn’t seem to want to do what the forums are here for.

You watch, he’ll come back and start bashing the Catholic faith and get himself tossed off here. Seems like he’s probably insincere and has an agenda that will put him on that “short term membership plan”.

 

[tqualey]

HankZ,

This is the second post you have launched that has truly disappointed me.

You seem to bask in the glow of laziness - claiming to want answers yet refusing to read them because they are ‘too long’ Good God - how did you make it through reading the Bible - since all of these references came from there?

But this second one is really over the top:

Do you claim to have all the answers to the truth of the word of God? A claim so strong is called being prideful. You know what happens when someone puffs themselves up don’t you? Read God’s word to find out.

No such claim was made - just a clear and Biblically based refutation of the material ('teachings of men) you are unable to document from the Bible you claim to read.

A simple objective reading of the material presented in these posts clearly indicates that when you have no argument - alas, falling in Martin777’s bad habits - you either choose to ignore the information presented, or call the poster names. There are those of us you honestly would like some mature dialogue instead of name calling and whining when you do not get your way in the discussion.

A detailed 3-page post was presented - all from the Bible - which clearly identifies God’s Word on particular matters are:

• **there is no OSAS,
• there is no Faith Alone,
• there is no Scripture Alone and
• there is no validity to trying to reach Christ by criticizing His Mother and the Church He founded on the 12 Apostles - that has carried on to this very day. (You guessed it, the Roman Catholic Church.)**

Now, I really want you to try harder: no name calling and just stick to the responses. (I know, dull and lacks color… but, it really is past time you stepped up to the plate intellectually and did your homework instead shooting off one-liners.)

If you do not know - that’s fine, but look at it as an opportunity to do some honest research (yeah, that does probably mean reading more then one-liners to get actual content - but, I am sure you can do it!) If you do not agree with someting, you are expected to give a Biblical citation - now, although you think the Bible is infinite - one of the Authors, St. John, provides a stunning rebuke in the last sentence of his Gospel: Not everything was written down! To claim it is ALL THERE is to argue directly with Scripture (here is the item: John 21:25"There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."

Surely, this must tell you something: there is a real limitation here in the Bible - brought to our attention by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit working with St. John…! So, what do we do? Well, just look around…look to the Church that Christ said He would found and set the Holy Spirit over to guide it and protect it from the Gates of Hell. Sacred Tradition is here to provide these additional details.

If anyone has an issue with pride, I do believe it rests on your shoulders. If you come to this site looking for answers - and, refuse to even read them when presented - don’t you think there will be an accounting for this action? This honestly appears to be culpable ignorance - an ignorance that holds one to responsisbility for not knowing.

God bless

 

[guanophore]

You guys are both wrong, though Guanophore in a more deadly way. However you are right about “born of water” not being a reference to physical birth. John MacArthur explains it very well:

"What does it mean? Very simply, it is a reference to the prophet Ezekiel. And if you remember, Jesus is talking to Nicodemus. Nicodemus is a teacher. He is a teacher of the Jews. In fact, in verse 1, it says, he’s a ruler of the Jews. That would put him in a very preeminent place. In fact, I believe the definite article is there, “the” ruler of the Jews. And those who ruled over the Jews were in religious authority, not political or military authority. And so, how would Nicodemus have understood it? Would he have understood it as Christian baptism? No. Would he have understood it as the physical birth and the water breaking? No. How would he have understood it? Well, the answer goes back to Ezekiel.

There was a very famous passage in Ezekiel that every teacher in Israel knew, because it was the promise of the new covenant. In Ezekiel 36:25, God made this promise to Israel about a new covenant. He said, “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all you idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances or my commandments.”

Now what Ezekiel is writing there is, that the day is going to come when the Lord will wash your heart, he’ll wash your life; he’ll wash your inner man. He’ll put a new heart in you and he’ll put his Spirit in you.

So when Jesus talks to Nicodemus and says, “you must be born of the water and the Spirit,” Nicodemus knows immediately that he is saying, “I am come to bring the fulfillment of the promised new covenant, promised to and through Ezekiel.” Okay? See his is a Jewish Old Testament context, and so it would be actually what the apostle Paul calls, “The washing of regeneration.” The washing, the internal washing of regeneration, and the renewing that comes by the Holy Spirit, that’s Titus 3:5 where you have both the water and the Spirit."

This is a very good summary of the Apostolic understanding of the sacrament of baptism. When Jesus entered the waters of baptism, He joined the HS to them. When he directed all the disciples be baptized, it is because He intends to do for them what was prophesied in Ezekiel. I am glad we are in agreement on this point. What is “deadly” about that?

 

[guanophore]

Show me something not covered in this passage that can result in a child of God being lost once they are saved. And note that ‘life…’ and ‘tribulation…’ are both situations that would make it very difficult not to sin. So tell me this passage doesn’t guarantee that once you are a child of God, He will see you through to the end, no matter what. Try to just read it as if you have never seen it before, and ask yourself what it really means. It is a wonderful passage. God Bless

Becoming a child of God is not equivalent to being saved. A child can disown his inheritance. I agree that once one is saved, one is always saved. But the Apostles taught that one is not saved until they have finished the race, fought the good fight, and kept the faith. The notion that one is saved at one point in time for all time is a recent innovation - what the Apostles would call “a different gospel”.

“Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained.” Phil 3:12-16

Why does Paul say it is more “mature” not to have an OSAS attitude? Why strain forward, if you have already arrived? Why “press on” if one has already reached the goal?

I left the passage out…Show me something not covered in this passage that can result in a child of God being lost once they are saved. And note that ‘life…’ and ‘tribulation…’ are both situations that would make it very difficult not to sin. So tell me this passage doesn’t guarantee that once you are a child of God, He will see you through to the end, no matter what. Try to just read it as if you have never seen it before, and ask yourself what it really means. It is a wonderful passage. God Bless Here it is–
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8
36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You are assuming that, because God loves someone, He will not let them walk away from Him. Even a cursory reading of scripture clearly shows that God loves those whom He has chosen, but He still lets them walk away from Him. He will never stop loving us, even as we pass thru the gates of hell.

Mark 10:21-22
21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

I am sure that Jesus was grieving too, since that what happens when someone you love does something self injurious.

 

[HankZ]

In that passage I see a guarantee that we cannot be separated from the love of God by any external force. What I do not see, however, is a guarantee that we are unable to voluntarily give up our faith through our own actions (or lack thereof).

We are created by God, So the part that says, “nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” applies to even ourselves. There is NOTHING that can separate us from Christ, once we are saved.

 

[HankZ]

It doesn’t discount sin or all the other verses you don’t like, martin… It is noting outside forces but not self chosen sinfulness.

I have to ask, which sins did Jesus not fully cover with His blood? If you can show me somewhere that says Jesus only died for the sins prior to His offering of salvation, then we need to atone for those sins, but until then, I have biblical reasons to believe when Jesus forgives us our sins, they are ALL forgiven. This is not an excuse to continue in sins and do nothing. This is rather an open invitation from Jesus to repent of our sins and to follow Him out of love and thankfulness. This is truely “Grace.”

For the sake of this argument about deeds, let’s say that someone is saved and he didn’t show any good deeds. You may argue and say that if he has no deeds to show, then he was not given salvation, but his good deed may have been thanking God for the free gift of salvation. Is that enough of a good deed and remember, this is God’s judgement to make? Jesus, Paul, Peter and many others have spoken of good deeds, but those deeds are between God and the doer of those deeds. Man cannot gauge the quality or quantity of a man’s good deeds if God is the only one who can see into his heart. I do agree, that God calls us to things He has prepared for us. It is not true to say we must do good deeds or we are not saved. Failure to do good deeds may be a sin, but ALL of the sins of a saved man are forgiven through Christ.

 

[fbl9]

I have to ask, which sins did Jesus not fully cover with His blood?
For the sake of this argument about deeds Is that enough of a good deed and remember, this is God’s judgement to make? ALL of the sins of a saved man are forgiven through Christ.

Jesus said the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit…
then why ask such a question?
if the saved man repents of them yes then they are if he doesn’t repent he sins against the Holy Spirit and can not be forgiven…

 

[HankZ]

Jesus said the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit…
then why ask such a question?
if the saved man repents of them yes then they are if he doesn’t repent he sins against the Holy Spirit and can not be forgiven…

My question is can you show me this? no offense, but I am not asking for your opinion.

 

[NotWorthy]

This is tm30’s quote, not mine. I do not think God is boxed in by methods and sacraments as is spoken of in this text.

Please get Catholic teachings right. No Catholic claims that God is boxed into methods. He is willing to do as He pleases. But He did go to some lengths to set up these methods and sacraments, although He certainly is not limited to them.

 

[NotWorthy]

1. Jesus was speaking prior to the cross and so many of his words were intended to convict people of the fact that they are sinners and can’t live up to God’s standards.
   If you ubderstand this, it clears up a lot!

No, I don’t ubderstand this, , but it certainly is setting off numerous alarms in my head. Can you please clarify this, before I assume you meant something absolutely way out there!