The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[guanophore]

It’s called The Holy Bible.
You can find them at almost any store that sells books.

No, Hank, the Bible was never meant to function as a Catechism. That is why there are so many denominations! This is not the unity to which we have been called by Christ. A catechism applies the Apostolic teaching to the modern day and time. For example, when scripture was written, we did not have cloning, stem cell research, and scientifically and economically motivated birth control and abortion. What do the Scriptures say about these things?

 

[guanophore]

This is tm30’s quote, not mine. I do not think God is boxed in by methods and sacraments as is spoken of in this text.

No, Surely He is not. He gave the sacraments as the normative means by which His grace would be passed through physical elements, but His grace is not at all bound by them. That is why those of you that reject the sacraments He instituted can still receive His grace!

Actually, it smells like biblical truth. Very well said Martin.

Well, here is the thing, Hank. “Biblical Truth” is in the eye of the beholder. It seems that, in this case, you happen to agree with Martin’s interpretation, but there may be others where you do not, and there are certainly many Chrisitans who will disagree with one another on many points.

 

[guanophore]

I know you’re not questioning God’s wisdom in putting that passage in there. Obviously it is a huge issue, since Paul, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, pronounced a curse on them. Here’s who was preaching another gospel THEN–People who were teaching that it is not enough to believe on Jesus. The Judaizers wanted to add works–obeying Old Testament law to be OK and accepted by God. Read it for yourself. Does it sound at all familiar?

It sounds familiar because it was written by Catholics, for Catholics.

Catholics do not believe that we are bound by the Law of Moses. We are under the Law of Christ (Love) and we believe that saving faith is faith that works. It is faith working through love that gives us access, by His grace, to the Kingdom of God. For some reason you seem to think that the good works that God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them come from some other source than His grace, but they do not. The same grace that saves us is that which works in us to will and do do His good pleasure, producing works that befit repentance. I think there is no difference between this view and the view of some of the Refomers. Even many modern day evangelicals will agree that a saved person will produce fruit - works of righteousness. Catholics just do not separate this fruit from the saving grace that produces it .

 

[Martin777]

Seeing Christ in others takes faith - not ignorance or dumb luck or some other element. For those expecting to see the Christ we have pictured in the Gospels - there is a real disappointment and confusion. He is really looking like everyone else. The “sheep” and “goats” are obviously confused… “When did we see You…”? My understanding is that the ‘goats’ were simply too busy with themselves to care for anyone other then their selfish selves (and Hell is an eternal preoccupation with a finite self refusing infinite good … oh, and don’t forget the heat!) The ‘sheep’ had to be aware that they were doing good for others - and in doing so, were building up the Body of Christ, His Chruch, through these works. It was not an accident.

I guess I am not catching this idea either. In the parable of Lazarus, the begger, and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31) both men die and both are judged immediately - there was no waiting around to gather a group and judge them collectively. Lazarus immediately enjoyed being in the “,bosom of Abraham…” the eternal enjoyment of God - and the rich man (“Dives”) goes “…and is buried…” but, there is no ‘rest in peace’ for this individual for he is “… tormented in this flame”. I think this is a good scriptural basis of the Particular or Individual Judgment, and Matthew’s account is a good scriptural basis for the General Judgment that will happen at the end of the world. There is no appeal (in the sense of reversing the initial judgment)… the judgment rendered at the Partucular Judgment will be announced for all to know at the General Judgment.

Both Matthew and Luke are telling us in these parables that merely having faith is not enough. James 2:19 tells us that even the Devils believe in God (faith?) and tremble, Matthew 8:29 tells how the expelled demons acknowledged Christ as God (faith?) but, it did them no good. And, you just have to ask yourself, “Why?” And, while pondering the answer to that - consider if there is not a lesson here for us as well.

Consider this: The Devil is totally incapable of changing his mind. He can’t wake up one morning (these spirits do not sleep…but, bear with this analogy) like we sometimes do, shake our heads and say something like, *“Oh, did I ever make a mistake on this one. I told the Boss I wanted to take over His Job - and He fired me! I will apologize and get back to work in the Company - because being fired down here is really being on fire and it hurts!” *It isn’t going to happen. The Devil has actual knowledge and experience of God - and rejected Him! It isn’t so much the place (not to minimize it, though), but this foolish Devil and his followers are in one hell of a state of mind.

We are totally capable of changing our minds - until we die. Then like the Devil (or the Good Angels for that matter) our wills are set in the direction we chose.

Best wishes,

Guys-There are two guiding principles here that cover this (and many others) entire discussion–

1. The only works that will survive the searching eye of God on the last day (the one that judges motives says Paul) are the ones done by born again people.
2. Jesus was speaking prior to the cross and so many of his words were intended to convict people of the fact that they are sinners and can’t live up to God’s standards.
   If you ubderstand this, it clears up a lot!

 

[Martin777]

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. Baptism, my brother.

I was baptized 45 years ago as an infant. How much more unconditional can that be? So, yes, I’ve been saved, I’ve been working on my salvation, and I will continue to work on my salvation, for it is a process, not an event.

Wow. I had forgotten that your statement is the standard answer from Catholics, and it is so contrary to God’s Word.
First, “born of water” was a common term in Jesus’ day for PHYSICAL birth (the watery womb and birth process) SO, here’s what Jesus was saying: Nicodemus (the man He was talking to) thought Jesus meant he had to be born physically again! So Jesus says, No, you have to born physically AND spiritually–that is, of water (physical birth) AND of the Spirit (the New Birth-Born Again) NO WONDER Catholics don’t understand what Jesus meant!

 

[guanophore]

 Jesus was speaking prior to the cross and so many of his words were intended to convict people of the fact that they are sinners and can't live up to God's standards. If you ubderstand this, it clears up a lot!

It clears a lot, yes. It clears a lot of problematic teaching of Jesus so that it does not have to be integrated. What you have posted here is a dispensationalist view of salvation, which discounts most of the preaching of Jesus as inapplicable to Christians. This is a modern view, and was developed to accomodate certain religious theories that were developed during the Reformation. It is not Apostolic. In fact, Jesus taught them about salvation, and His Teaching was whole and entire when it was delivered to them, before Paul wrote a single epistle. This is a very inconvenient fact for dispensationalists, and indeed would require “clearing”.

Wow. I had forgotten that your statement is the standard answer from Catholics, and it is so contrary to God’s Word.

Really?! Any standard Catholic answer is,by default, contrary to God’s word?

Such prejudice.

First, “born of water” was a common term in Jesus’ day for PHYSICAL birth (the watery womb and birth process)

No, it is not. This is a modern innovation that is used by Reformers to separate themselves from the Apostolic teaching.
In fact, you cannot show one shred of evidence that this was “a common term in Jesus’ day”. On the contrary, the common terms in Jesus day are already found in scripture:

John 1:11-13
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God."

Natural physical birth is by blood, the will of the flesh, and the will of man. This is why a new mother had to make an offering for purificaton - because she had impurity from BLOOD! Not water. People did not make a purification offering for “water”.

SO, here’s what Jesus was saying: Nicodemus (the man He was talking to) thought Jesus meant he had to be born physically again! So Jesus says, No, you have to born physically AND spiritually–that is, of water (physical birth) AND of the Spirit (the New Birth-Born Again) NO WONDER Catholics don’t understand what Jesus meant!

LOL. How do you suppose it is that Jesus was not able to make this clear to the Apostles? How is it that they ALL misunderstood Him, and that He allowed them to pass this erroneous understanding on to their disciples? How is it that being born again by water and the spirit meant baptism for 1600 years? If he could send a vision to Peter to make it clear that Gentiles were to be welcomed into the Church, how come He could not correct this misunderstanding about Baptism?

Furthermore, why is it that the NT writers never separate baptism with water from the action of the HS? Why did not God, in His infallible act of inspiring the inerrant scripture, find a way to keep this error out of the NT?

 

[fbl9]

Wow. I had forgotten that your statement is the standard answer from Catholics, and it is so contrary to God’s Word.
First, “born of water” was a common term in Jesus’ day for PHYSICAL birth (the watery womb and birth process) SO, here’s what Jesus was saying: Nicodemus (the man He was talking to) thought Jesus meant he had to be born physically again! So Jesus says, No, you have to born physically AND spiritually–that is, of water (physical birth) AND of the Spirit (the New Birth-Born Again) NO WONDER Catholics don’t understand what Jesus meant!

this is the best evidence that St.Paul is catholic…"by the BATH OF REGENERATION…“St. Paul’s letter to Titius…
Martin when are you going to start addressing St.Paul as just that SAINT??
the question was are alll beleivers saints? no all believers are not saints i know many people to proffess that they believe in God yet live a life in bondage to sin…silly me i guesss these people are saved too.
it has been wirtten by St. Paul that love is actually greater then faith…St.Paul’s first letter to the corinthians"13:13"so there abide FAITH,HOPE and CHARITY,these three but the greatest is CHARITY”…works done with charity are pleasing to God,we can agree to this…
but if works have no bearing on salvation how can charity be greater then faith…if it is true we are saved merely by faith alone.

 

[tm30]

Yeh, and tell me about the vitality of the spirituality of those Rome ‘converted’

Just answer the question. Why are you evading it?

 

[tm30]

You, my dear friend, are a legalist who has yet to have that “Aha” moment where the incredible, eternal, PERFECT work of the cross becomes the shattering of all barriers between you and God. You think God has Christians on probation. You are still under the Law and are the target audience (minus the Jewish influence) of Paul when he fervently warned against those who teach another gospel. They weren’t teaching another religion or something pagan, they were teaching Jesus with conditions–“Another Jesus”, as Paul called it when he cursed them. He says in Colossians that Jesus destroyed the enmity between us and God–forever. Evangelicals believe that their all-poserful, all loving Father knew every sin we would EVER commit before He saved us, and did it anyway, placing those sins on His Son. They are separated from Him “as far as the east is from the west” and it is a disgrace that you want to dredge them up. That is why Paul said, “BEING CONFIDENT OF THIS VERY THING, THAT HE WHO BEGAN A GOOD WORK IN YOU WILL CONTINUE IT UNTIL THE DAY OF JESUS CHRIST” Believers are eternally seated with Christ in the heavenlies (Eph 2) and they are literall part of Christ’s body. Your theology would require Him to cut an arm or a foot off. One day, I pray, you will understand how AMAZING Grace REALLY is.

You still haven’t explained why Jesus gave us two “new” commandments if the entire concept of “law” is obsolete. Until you can do that, your position is untenable and self-contradictory if you claim to be a disciple of Jesus.

The “law” which Paul refers to is not a repudiation of the 10 Commandments (which your position must include), but of the intense scrutiny of the Pharisees and the Law of Moses handed down in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

Nothing which you stated here directly pertains to “law”.

By the way, what other word has “disciple” at its root? The answer is “discipline”. And “discipline” comes from regulation - following a guideline - adhering to the new commandments of Christ. If that isn’t legalistic, what is?

 

[guanophore]

Yeh, and tell me about the vitality of the spirituality of those Rome ‘converted’

The Catholic faith was born in Palestine, when the HS descended upon the Apostles in the upper room at Pentecost. All the first Catholics were Jews, and had the Jewish ethics reinforced by Jesus’ constant teaching. Evangelism as conducted in the Catholic Church is based upon this ethic that faith, hope an love abide, but the greatest of these is love. A passage in St. James illustrates it well:

“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? **15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? **17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” James 2:14-17

The Catholic Church generally begins evangelism by tending to the basic needs of persons to whom they are reaching out. Once a person has peace, is warm and filled, then one can focus on spiritual matters.

I think modern evangelical Americans have a skewed view about this because the modern american evangelical movements were primarily focused on persons who were not living in war zones, and had all their basic needs met. They were able to think about having a “personal relationship” (words not found in Scripture) with Jesus because they were at peace, warm and fed.

 

[tm30]

It’s called The Holy Bible.
You can find them at almost any store that sells books.

But but but - how come Protestants can’t agree on anything?

 

[tm30]

Hank Z. - you said:

This is tm30’s quote, not mine. I do not think God is boxed in by methods and sacraments as is spoken of in this text.

Really? According to you, He’s boxed into a finite book and has no other vehicle of teaching.

 

[tm30]

Guys-There are two guiding principles here that cover this (and many others) entire discussion–

1. The only works that will survive the searching eye of God on the last day (the one that judges motives says Paul) are the ones done by born again people.
2. Jesus was speaking prior to the cross and so many of his words were intended to convict people of the fact that they are sinners and can’t live up to God’s standards.
   If you ubderstand this, it clears up a lot!

#1 - Bizarre. Why did Jesus forgive all of the un-born-again people mocking Him at the foot of the cross?

#2 - That’s not scriptural. That’s conjecture. If I understand that, I understand your opinion, not Scripture.

 

[twb1621]

Post 1 of 3
Guys-There are two guiding principles here that cover this (and many others) entire discussion–

1. The only works that will survive the searching eye of God on the last day (the one that judges motives says Paul) are the ones done by born again people.
2. Jesus was speaking prior to the cross and so many of his words were intended to convict people of the fact that they are sinners and can’t live up to God’s standards.
   If you ubderstand this, it clears up a lot!

Martin777 and HankZ

Its time you start accounting for the way you present scripture against scripture because you know it does not conflict with itself yet you are trying to justify “once saved always saved.” Yet you put aside the overwhelming support to the contrary. There is far too much evidence against that position and regardless of your personal opinions you should feel compelled to learn the truth.

The strongest arguments for the existence of purgatory
include the constant and universal writings of the early Church Fathers, the
ancient liturgies of the East and West, the numerous inscriptions on the
walls of the Catacombs, and the dogmatic pronouncements of the Councils
of Florence (1438-45) and Trent (1545-63).
The Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a temporary process of
purification, where those who have died undergo expiation to remove all
temporal punishment due to mortal sin duly forgiven, or all stain of
unrepentant venial sin. It is not a “second chance” opportunity or a place
where souls that are not-good-enough-for-heaven-but-too-good-for-hell go.
All the selfishness, inordinate attachment to creatures, dross and impurities
in our souls are burned away by the fiery love and holiness of Christ. Souls
undergo purgatory, as “nothing unclean can enter heaven” and behold the
glorious and overwhelming light of the Beatific Vision (Rev. 21:27).
Purgatorial cleansing is a passive process. We do nothing ourselves to
purify our souls. The purification is done solely by God. Following
immediately after death, the soul appears before the judgment seat of
Christ: “It is appointed unto a man once to die, and then the judgment”
(Heb. 9:27). This judgment involves the burning away of all “wood, hay,
and straw” and the refining of all “gold, silver and precious stones” (1 Cor.
3:13ff.). All this takes place before the soul enters heaven. All souls that
undergo purgatory are destined ultimately for heaven.
The Church does not formally teach that purgatory is a particular region in
the afterlife. We are unsure as to how space operates in the next world, in

St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Lapsed 29 (251 AD)
“I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while
he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while
satisfaction and remission made through the priests are pleasing before the
Lord.”
Firmilian of Caesarea, Letter to Cyprian 75, 16 (c. 258 AD)
“‘Receive the Holy Spirit: if you forgive any man his sins, they shall be
forgiven; and if you retain any man’s sins, they shall be retained.’
Therefore, the power of forgiving sins was given to the Apostles and to the
Churches which these men, sent by Christ, established; and to the bishops
who succeeded them by being ordained in their place.”
Lactantius, The Divine Institutions 4, 30, 1 (inter 304-310 AD)
“…let it be known: that is the true Church, in which there is confession and
penance, and which takes a salubrious care of the sins and wounds to
which the weak flesh is subject.”
St. Hilary of Poitiers, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew 18, 8 (c.
354 AD)
“In our present condition we are all subdued by the terror of that greatest
dread. And now, out in front of that terror, He sets the irrevocable apostolic
judgment, however severe, so that those whom they shall bind on earth,
that is, whomsoever they leave bound in the knots of their sins; and those
whom they loose, which is to say, those who by their confession receive
grace unto salvation––these, in accord with the apostolic sentence, are
bound or loosed also in heaven.”
St. Basil the Great, Rules Briefly Treated 229 & 288 (post
370 AD)
“Just as the diseases of the body are not divulged to all, nor haphazardly,
but to those who are skilled in curing them, so too our declaration of our
sins should be made to those empowered to cure them”.

“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of
God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have
done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their
sins to John the Baptist; but in Acts they confessed to the Apostles, by
whom also all were baptized.”
St. Pacian of Barcelona, Letters to Sympronian 1, 6 (inter 375-392
AD)
“God never threatens the repentant, rather He pardons the penitent. You
will say that it is God alone who can do this. True enough, but it is likewise
true that He does it through His priests, who exercise His power.”
St. Jerome, Commentaries on Ecclesiastes 4, 4 (c. 388-389 AD)
“If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with
the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and
does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound to his brother
and to his master, who have the word that will cure him, they cannot very
well assist him. For if the sick man is ashamed to confess his wound to the
physician, medicine will not cure that to which it is not applied.”

 

[twb1621]

Post 2 of 3
We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 - this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 - this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it’s guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the “hope” to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one “hope” (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and “hope” (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the “hope” (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the “hope” of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the “hope” (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of “hope” in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our “hope” or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of “hope” (not of certainty) of salvation.
2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good “hope” through grace.
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our “hope” (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our “hope” (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her “hope” (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they “may also obtain salvation.” This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.

 

[twb1621]

Post 3 of 3
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ’s house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our “hope” (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of “hope” (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the “hope” (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a “hope” that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better “hope” (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living “hope” through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 - set your “hope” (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and “hope” are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the “hope” that is in you.
1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus “hopes” in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.

 

[Martin777]

It clears a lot, yes. It clears a lot of problematic teaching of Jesus so that it does not have to be integrated. What you have posted here is a dispensationalist view of salvation, which discounts most of the preaching of Jesus as inapplicable to Christians. This is a modern view, and was developed to accomodate certain religious theories that were developed during the Reformation. It is not Apostolic. In fact, Jesus taught them about salvation, and His Teaching was whole and entire when it was delivered to them, before Paul wrote a single epistle. This is a very inconvenient fact for dispensationalists, and indeed would require “clearing”.

Really?! Any standard Catholic answer is,by default, contrary to God’s word?

Such prejudice.

No, it is not. This is a modern innovation that is used by Reformers to separate themselves from the Apostolic teaching.
In fact, you cannot show one shred of evidence that this was “a common term in Jesus’ day”. On the contrary, the common terms in Jesus day are already found in scripture:

John 1:11-13
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God."

Natural physical birth is by blood, the will of the flesh, and the will of man. This is why a new mother had to make an offering for purificaton - because she had impurity from BLOOD! Not water. People did not make a purification offering for “water”.

LOL. How do you suppose it is that Jesus was not able to make this clear to the Apostles? How is it that they ALL misunderstood Him, and that He allowed them to pass this erroneous understanding on to their disciples? How is it that being born again by water and the spirit meant baptism for 1600 years? If he could send a vision to Peter to make it clear that Gentiles were to be welcomed into the Church, how come He could not correct this misunderstanding about Baptism?

Furthermore, why is it that the NT writers never separate baptism with water from the action of the HS? Why did not God, in His infallible act of inspiring the inerrant scripture, find a way to keep this error out of the NT?

You guys are both wrong, though Guanophore in a more deadly way. However you are right about “born of water” not being a reference to physical birth. John MacArthur explains it very well:

"What does it mean? Very simply, it is a reference to the prophet Ezekiel. And if you remember, Jesus is talking to Nicodemus. Nicodemus is a teacher. He is a teacher of the Jews. In fact, in verse 1, it says, he’s a ruler of the Jews. That would put him in a very preeminent place. In fact, I believe the definite article is there, “the” ruler of the Jews. And those who ruled over the Jews were in religious authority, not political or military authority. And so, how would Nicodemus have understood it? Would he have understood it as Christian baptism? No. Would he have understood it as the physical birth and the water breaking? No. How would he have understood it? Well, the answer goes back to Ezekiel.

There was a very famous passage in Ezekiel that every teacher in Israel knew, because it was the promise of the new covenant. In Ezekiel 36:25, God made this promise to Israel about a new covenant. He said, “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all you idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances or my commandments.”

Now what Ezekiel is writing there is, that the day is going to come when the Lord will wash your heart, he’ll wash your life; he’ll wash your inner man. He’ll put a new heart in you and he’ll put his Spirit in you.

So when Jesus talks to Nicodemus and says, “you must be born of the water and the Spirit,” Nicodemus knows immediately that he is saying, “I am come to bring the fulfillment of the promised new covenant, promised to and through Ezekiel.” Okay? See his is a Jewish Old Testament context, and so it would be actually what the apostle Paul calls, “The washing of regeneration.” The washing, the internal washing of regeneration, and the renewing that comes by the Holy Spirit, that’s Titus 3:5 where you have both the water and the Spirit."

 

[HankZ]

Post 3 of 3
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ’s house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our “hope” (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of “hope” (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the “hope” (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a “hope” that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better “hope” (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living “hope” through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 - set your “hope” (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and “hope” are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the “hope” that is in you.
1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus “hopes” in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.

FYI,
I see these long drawn out post, and skip right over them. Sorry, but I want to be honest with you. I don’t care to read that much in one post.

 

[twb1621]

You guys are both wrong,
There was a very famous passage in Ezekiel

Lets look at the whole Chapter to see what the Lord was talking about here and in what contect. The way you present it and the way it is written is not the same type of conditions based on events at that time and God was not at all happy ;
Ezekiel CH 36
1 As for you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel: Mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD! 2 Thus says the Lord GOD: Because the enemy has said of you, “Ha! the everlasting heights have become our possession” 3 (therefore prophesy in these words: Thus says the Lord GOD; because you have been ridiculed and despised on all sides for having become a possession for the rest of the nations, and have become a byword and a popular jeer; 4 therefore, mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD: (Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains and hills, the ravines and valleys, the desolate ruins and abandoned cities, which have been given over to the pillage and mockery of the remaining nations round about; 5 therefore thus says the Lord GOD Truly, with burning jealousy I speak against the rest of the nations (and against all of Edom) who with wholehearted joy and utter contempt have considered my land their possession to be delivered over to plunder. 6 (Therefore, prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains and hills, the ravines and valleys: Thus says the Lord GOD With jealous fury I speak, because you have borne the reproach of the nations. 7 Therefore do I solemnly swear that your neighboring nations shall bear their own reproach. 8 As for you, mountains of Israel, you shall grow branches and bear fruit for my people Israel, for they shall soon return. 9 See, I come to you, it is to you that I turn; you will be tilled and sown, 10 and I will settle crowds of men upon you, the whole house of Israel; cities shall be repeopled, and ruins rebuilt. 11 I will settle crowds of men and beasts upon you, to multiply and be fruitful. I will repeople you as in the past, and be more generous to you than in the beginning; thus you shall know that I am the LORD. 12 (My people Israel are the ones whom I will have walk upon you; they shall take possession of you, and you shall be their heritage. Never again shall you rob them of their children.) 13 1 Thus says the Lord GOD: Because they have said of you, “You are a land that devours men, and you rob your people of their children”; 14 therefore, never again shall you devour men or rob your people of their children, says the Lord GOD. 15 No more will I permit you to hear the reproach of nations, or bear insults from peoples, or rob your people of their children, says the Lord GOD. 16 Thus the word of the LORD came to me: 17 Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their land, they defiled it by their conduct and deeds. In my sight their conduct was like the defilement of a menstruous woman. 18 Therefore I poured out my fury upon them (because of the blood which they poured out on the ground, and because they defiled it with idols). 19 I scattered them among the nations, dispersing them over foreign lands; according to their conduct and deeds I judged them. 20 But when they came among the nations (wherever they came), they served to profane my holy name, because it was said of them: “These are the people of the LORD, yet they had to leave their land.” 21 So I have relented because of my holy name which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they came. 22 Therefore say to the house of Israel: Thus says the Lord GOD: Not for your sakes do I act, house of Israel, but for the sake of my holy name, which you profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 I will prove the holiness of my great name, profaned among the nations, in whose midst you have profaned it. Thus the nations shall know that I am the LORD, says the Lord GOD, when in their sight I prove my holiness through you. 24 For I will take you away from among the nations, gather you from all the foreign lands, and bring you back to your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. 27 I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. 28 You shall live in the land I gave your fathers; you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your impurities; I will order the grain to be abundant, and I will not send famine against you. 30 I will increase the fruit on your trees and the crops in your fields; thus you shall no longer bear among the nations the reproach of famine. 31 Then you shall remember your evil conduct, and that your deeds were not good; you shall loathe yourselves for your sins and your abominations."

 

[Martin777]

I follow the same Gospel that’s been preached for 2000 years. I’m not sure you can honestly say that, my brother. Though I deeply admire your love for Christ, I mourn your ignorance of the Bride of Christ, the Church… The Catholic Church.

If I was correct in saying that you were preaching “Once Saved, Always Saved”, then I coil away from that heresy, for it is truly a foul and disgusting odor indeed, that has given poor sinners a false sense of eternal security for 400 or so years (truly a doctrine of man).

But if I was totally off-base in thinking you were not professing OSAS, then I’m truly sorry for misjudging your words.

Show me something not covered in this passage that can result in a child of God being lost once they are saved. And note that ‘life…’ and ‘tribulation…’ are both situations that would make it very difficult not to sin. So tell me this passage doesn’t guarantee that once you are a child of God, He will see you through to the end, no matter what. Try to just read it as if you have never seen it before, and ask yourself what it really means. It is a wonderful passage. God Bless