I was a thorn in my brothers side while I was being taught catholicism. My Catholic brother had to answer so many questions over and over again… remember, You and I have the truth on our side. We will be put to the test time and time again. What must we do? ANSWER THEM. Again and again. Unitl it takes…
***Interesting that over at ( the place we are not too name.org) they do not allow any cut and paste or even referals from here!! talk about fear- they could not answer the truth, so they BANNED IT.
**
I think it would be OK to use their advertised Internet name, carm.org --they can consider it a free plug. LOL
2 Peter 3:16 was another argument I attempted to use at carm.com, to establish the lack of proper authority of soal scriptura, and again, I explained to them that it was my integrity and love for the bible, that I was trying to defend my position, and again --to no avail. As a former Lutheran, this passage often troubled me:
*And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, *(Paul has received his wisdom from Jesus and probably Jesus’ chosen Apostles and he is to impart this wisdom, not hand each new disciple a self-interpreted collection of books; something he couldn’t have done even if he wanted to; the bible didn’t exist as we know it today until the early part of the 4th century!) –also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. (such as the book of Revelations --very difficult to wrap your brain around that book)
It certainly makes sense, in view of this passage, as to why Jesus established His Church on His chosen Apostles, (people who are told to go out and teach) --and not on a Book. To put it in terms the secular world could certainly identify with: With leaders governing, (Jesus’ established Church) --and with the help of the established Charter, (Jesus’ Bible) --just as we see in all successful Institutions, the world over, to steer clear of anarchy and division—the ignorant and unstable cannot distort anything to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.(It seem to be for our own good)–If the ignorant and unstable (any unauthorized body of people) --are allowed to interpret letters such as Paul’s, that are hard to understand --and distort the meaning, to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures, then this would be doing them a huge disservice, even though they wouldn’t see it that way at the time, nor do they today.
Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability. (private interpretation) --But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.)
Doesn’t this passage in its proper context, in any context for that matter, clearly illustrate that sola scriptura (the bible as are sole authority via private interpretation) --is a BIG no-no! Peter actually says, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled (which if not explicitly as in other parts of the bible, implicitly connotes authority) --and to fall from your own stability; sounds like Individual authority based on ones reading of Holy Scripture to me, AKA, private interpretation; am I wrong? He follows that up with, grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Well, how is that to be attained if we don’t steer clear of ignorant and unstable folks who distort to their own destruction. If we are commanded to be on our guard, not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from our own stability, then where does one go to find those who are NOT led into the error of the unprincipled, those who are NOT ignorant and unstable, and NOT distorting scripture, to their own destruction, and the ones who follow in their wake, just as they do the other scriptures?
Just before Jesus ascended to His True Home, not to return until His Kingdom on earth has reached fruition, He --said to His established Church, **"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. **
Then He immediately follows with…
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, (NOT --tell them to read scripture and interpret as you see fit) baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,and** teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you**. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Two things should be considered here…
(1) Jesus clearly delegated His authority (Matthew 16:18 --keys are a symbol of authority) --to His Apostolic Church, and…
(2) He told His Apostolic Church that He would be with them “always, to the end of the age.”
As Christian we are obligated to find the One Church Jesus established in the 1st century; scripture dictates so. Logic also dictates-- if Jesus is still with His One Church in 2008, and again, He is according to scripture, then ALL Christians should belong to His One Church.
yes!! and what about 2 pet. 1:20-21?? The Holy men… who are they but our fathers in the Church?
**Interesting that over at ( the place we are not too name.org) they do not allow any cut and paste or even referals from here!! talk about fear- they could not answer the truth, so they BANNED IT.
**
I think it would be OK to use their advertised Internet name, carm.org --they can consider it a free plug. LOL
2 Peter 3:16 was another argument I attempted to use at carm.com, to establish the lack of proper authority of soal scriptura, and again, I explained to them that it was my integrity and love for the bible, that I was trying to defend my position, and again --to no avail. As a former Lutheran, this passage often troubled me:
*And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, *(Paul has received his wisdom from Jesus and probably Jesus’ chosen Apostles and he is to impart this wisdom, not hand each new disciple a self-interpreted collection of books; something he couldn’t have done even if he wanted to; the bible didn’t exist as we know it today until the early part of the 4th century!) –also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. (such as the book of Revelations --very difficult to wrap your brain around that book)
It certainly makes sense, in view of this passage, as to why Jesus established His Church on His chosen Apostles, (people who are told to go out and teach) --and not on a Book. To put it in terms the secular world could certainly identify with: With leaders governing, (Jesus’ established Church) --and with the help of the established Charter, (Jesus’ Bible) --just as we see in all successful Institutions, the world over, to steer clear of anarchy and division—the ignorant and unstable cannot distort anything to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.(It seem to be for our own good)–If the ignorant and unstable (any unauthorized body of people) --are allowed to interpret letters such as Paul’s, that are hard to understand --and distort the meaning, to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures, then this would be doing them a huge disservice, even though they wouldn’t see it that way at the time, nor do they today.
Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability. (private interpretation) --But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.)
Doesn’t this passage in its proper context, in any context for that matter, clearly illustrate that sola scriptura (the bible as are sole authority via private interpretation) --is a BIG no-no! Peter actually says, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled (which if not explicitly as in other parts of the bible, implicitly connotes authority) --and to fall from your own stability; sounds like Individual authority based on ones reading of Holy Scripture to me, AKA, private interpretation; am I wrong? He follows that up with, grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Well, how is that to be attained if we don’t steer clear of ignorant and unstable folks who distort to their own destruction. If we are commanded to be on our guard, not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from our own stability, then where does one go to find those who are NOT led into the error of the unprincipled, those who are NOT ignorant and unstable, and NOT distorting scripture, to their own destruction, and the ones who follow in their wake, just as they do the other scriptures?
Just before Jesus ascended to His True Home, not to return until His Kingdom on earth has reached fruition, He --said to His established Church, **"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. **
Then He immediately follows with…
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, (NOT --tell them to read scripture and interpret as you see fit) baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,and** teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you**. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Two things should be considered here…
(1) Jesus clearly delegated His authority (Matthew 16:18 --keys are a symbol of authority) --to His Apostolic Church, and…
(2) He told His Apostolic Church that He would be with them “always, to the end of the age.”
As Christian we are obligated to find the One Church Jesus established in the 1st century; scripture dictates so. Logic also dictates-- if Jesus is still with His One Church in 2008, and again, He is according to scripture, then ALL Christians should belong to His One Church.
check it out, it was edited HERE- to prevent an onslaught from them
But not on their forums. They know where to find us if they want to discuss our most holy faith.
I have been told by Sola Scripturists that “the Catholic Church was not wrong all the time - they got it right on that occasion”. I have also been told that the doctrine of SS “assumes a canon”, which seems to me to be a convenient way to avoid having to answer this excellent question you have posed.
Hi Guan, this is a good source for the tests of Canon of tradition also;
But that just generates yet another question. Who determines when they were inspired and when they were just being guided by their own spirit?joe370:
I have been told by Sola Scripturists that “the Catholic Church was not wrong all the time - they got it right on that occasion”. I have also been told that the doctrine of SS “assumes a canon”, which seems to me to be a convenient way to avoid having to answer this excellent question you have posed.
.Have a blessed dayTWB,
I just had a little thought on your signature picture.
Mary had a Little Lamb…whose fleece was white as snow.
But I change the next line to : And everywhere the LAMB went, Mary was sure to go.
Oh, thats pretty good… That’s my Christmas Picture, wadaya think?TWB,
I just had a little thought on your signature picture.
Mary had a Little Lamb…whose fleece was white as snow.
But I change the next line to : And everywhere the LAMB went, Mary was sure to go.
It only takes one person to keep the true church alive. Only Noah was considered rightous in the whole world. The fact that the rest of the world thought he was wrong, didn’t change their fate, did it? They were all judged and drowned in the flood. So it is a great work if one believer is left when Jesus returns. That means that the truth will have made it to the end.
Kind of pretentious, dont you think? Suggesting that you alone are the righteous “Noah”, in this sea of evil Catholics?
Biblically, intercession of saints, would refer to the saints God has placed in our lives. I have many friends who I consider saints and have asked some of them to lift me up in prayer(intercede.) I have also asked for saints to keep me accountable with certain struggles I have. Asking a saint who is no longer alive, is like trying to be a medium and communicate with the dead. Scripture forbids this and the old testament says anyone who is a medium should be put to death. Only one time (Elijah) was a dead saint able to communicate with the living and he rebuked those who spoke with him. Do you find your bible to be inconsistant in this area or should you follow God’s word and not try to communicate with the dead?I don’t see how when everything that is in both of those links comes from scripture.
These teachings have been in Christianity since its beginning and are (as these links show) found right in the New Testament.
That being the case, I would posit that those who deny these teachings and are adherents to the fundamental Reformation error of Sola Scriptura are in fact those who should reconsider their beliefs in light of the fact that theirs are the the modern new winds of doctrines of men and not the Catholic Church and her teachings.
If you cannot hack the long posts then I suggest that your attention problems are possibly keeping you from studying anything that does not agree with your current faith community. One might also wonder how it is that you study the Word of God since it too is long and deals with complex themes.
BTW…if you “do not care” what we respond, I would further suggest that you are incapable of apologetic dialog and even simple religious discussion because you are too steeped in your own bias and prejudices. You might reconsider bothering to post here because you “do not care” enough to make the effort to pursue the fullness of truth no matter where the Holy Spirit might lead you.
Many devout and faithful Catholics have spent their precious time and energy to make a case that you can understand and if you “do not care” enough to make an equal effort then perhaps you need to spare us your faith sharing efforts.:bible1:
Maybe you need to read my post again. I never claimed to be the only rightous, but spoke of Noah as the only rightous, which is found in the bible.Kind of pretentious, dont you think? Suggesting that you alone are the righteous “Noah”, in this sea of evil Catholics?
Your arguments have been against trusting the bible as truth. My argument has been that scripture is truthful and trustworthy, regardless of any and all human teaching. The Holy Spirit will not lead anyone into any teaching that contradics the Word of God.
No Catholic Doctrine violates Scripture. Furthermore, the CHurch, not Scripture, is the pillar of truth. The Church will survive to the end of days, and no amount of tampering by Protestants can change that fact.
