The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[bookgirl32]

Originally Posted by HankZ
Rewards. Read that verse again and think of the rewards God offers to His chosen as the prize that Paul is talking about. The rewards He will give to those who do the will of Him, will be unbelievable. Salvation is not the reward, because that would not be a gift any longer.

Circumcision is part of the Old Covenant. The blood of Jesus has given us the New Covenant.

So some are going to have a better time in Heaven than others, or a better Heaven, so to speak?

So basically Paul’s saying God wants us to try to be good so that we can get something out of it, you mean.

Hello??

 

[guanophore]

I have been trying to give answers to your questions. I do not claim to be a scholar, but I have tried to help you understand what truths I do know. You ignore them by claiming things like I am a child with a car and no drivers license. You are not hearing anything I say. Why do you keep asking me questions when it is obvious that you don’t care? The truth is the truth, and no amount of man’s doctrines can change the truth. God has not even a shadow of change and neither does His word.

Hank, why did you come to CAF? Do you understand that the purpose of this ministry is to answer questions from sincere inquirers about the Catholic faith? We are not here so that you can educate us in your anti-Catholic doctrine. Most of us have been there, and done that!

I agree with you , the truth is the truth, and no amount of men’s doctrines can change the truth. What you don’t seem to understand is that to us, who have held the same faith of the Apostles for the last 2000 years, it is the man made docrtrines of the Reformation that are modern innovations.

We are happy to share with you why we believe the way we do, but we are not going to be converted to what is, to us, a “different gospel”.

Rewards. Read that verse again and think of the rewards God offers to His chosen as the prize that Paul is talking about. The rewards He will give to those who do the will of Him, will be unbelievable. Salvation is not the reward, because that would not be a gift any longer.

I agree with you, it is about rewards, and one of those rewards is eternal life.

It is no less a gift, since we cannot even enter the race without grace, and we can only run and finish by grace. We don’t “earn” our way to the finish line, but in Him we live, and move, and have our being, and it is the power of His Spirit within us that is working to will and to do His good pleasure.

Col 3:23-25
23 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ."

Would you not agree that eternal life is our inheritance?

2 John 8-9
" Look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for, but may win a full reward."

What kind of “work”?

Rom 2:5-10
" For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good…"

Those who become slaves of God get a “return”.

Rom 6:21-23
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, **the return you get **is sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Circumcision is part of the Old Covenant. The blood of Jesus has given us the New Covenant.

Yes, and in both covenants, people are brought into them by grace, then reject the grace that bought them, and fall into sin and disbelief, bringing upon themselves their own condemnation.

I

 

[bookgirl32]

So because you and a few others think that I am wrong, that makes you right? If this were so, Why did God flood the Earth? Why does His word say that He will judge the Earth again, next time with fire? You see, there are many opinions floating arround, but the only opinion that matters is that of the Lord. The best we have to understand His opinion is that book that you claim is inanimate.

You mean yours moves around and stuff? Seriously Hank, stop with the drama.

The Living Word of God, inanimate?

Of course, the Living Word, Jesus Himself, the Word made flesh, is not inanimate. In the beginning was the Word, in the beginning was not the Bible. The revelation of the Word (Jesus) is contained in the Bible (well, part of it anyway), The Bible is not God.

 

[guanophore]

Who sent Martin Luther to reform the church?

What makes you think he was sent?

What makes you think he was sent to reform?

When we look at the fruit of his labor, we see separation and division. We see abandonment of the Apostolic Teachings, and ongoing errors multiplying from the heretical teaching of Sola Scriptura.

 

[fbl9]

So because you and a few others think that I am wrong, that makes you right? If this were so, Why did God flood the Earth? Why does His word say that He will judge the Earth again, next time with fire? You see, there are many opinions floating arround, but the only opinion that matters is that of the Lord. The best we have to understand His opinion is that book that you claim is inanimate. The Living Word of God, inanimate? How foolish that must sound to God. What do you get your morals to live by from, if not God’s word? Do you know how many people had a similar discussion with Noah? There were thousands of people who thought he was wrong too. The water had to reach their necks before they realised that Noah was right, but by then it was too late to get on the ark and their eternity was alreay set. There is a point that God stops giving chances. It may be today, it may be 25 years from now, but after that, your decision has been made and God being a gentleman, will let you keep your decision forever.

God flooded the earth because of people just like you…the one’s who denied Him.
the bible has yet to utter a single sound,move a single page on it’s own,the bible does nothing it just sits there,the same as a rock.
no Hank osas is foolish in His eyes.
you do not even know the Living word of God …i say this because only Jesus Christ is the Living word of God…yes the word made FLESH,THAT LIVED BREATHED,DIED ROSE AGAIN UNTO ETERNAL LIFE.no book has ever done that…
the bible is not the living word of God,it is the word of the living God …
you know what i said about the bible being unable to show you mercy,which something a living person can do is true so you don’t touch that, just run off your opinion,yes even condem me…good boy
you best take your own advice Hank and get on the ark of the new covenant before it is to late

 

[guanophore]

I have the same Holy Spirit in me as Peter recieved in the upper room and I do not need to have a lineage of men whether real or made up.

Are you under some sort of misapprehension that Jesus did things that were not necessary? Jesus empowered the Apostles and sent them as He was sent, with authority. They ordained successors for themselves to act with authority. Your statement above comes across as a rebellious rejection of the authority that Jesus appointed. Do you think He was just wasting His breath when He spoke of the authority that He appointed to govern the Church?

16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:16

Does that same Holy Spirit flurish in Christ’s Church today? Certainly. Jesus followers are all filled with the Holy Spirit.

I wish this were true. There are many Christians that don’t know how to be filled with the Spirit.

Jesus promised this, and has been faithful to grant it. Jesus did not leave His believers alone as orphans, but has stayed with His church and will continue to stay with His church until His awesome return. It is clear that you think the RCC is the one true church, I respectfully disagree with you.

Actually, I sometimes feel like a lone voice around here reminding people the Catholic Church is not Roman.

And your disagreement hasn’t been so “respectful” Hank. You have accused us of following traditions of men, implying that the catholic Church is comprised of Pharisaical types, that we don’t know what grace is about, and that we are suffering the “blind leading the blind”, and that because we don’t agree with the way you interpret the Bible, we reject the Truth.

So because you and a few others think that I am wrong, that makes you right?

No, not a bit. Jesus is right. He founded the Church. He promised to send the Spirit to guide her into all Truth. It has nothing to do with “a few others”, it all depends upon God. He only founded One Church, and there is only One Faith.

You see, there are many opinions floating arround, but the only opinion that matters is that of the Lord.

I agree. That is why Jesus explained everything privately to His Apostles.

The best we have to understand His opinion is that book that you claim is inanimate.

This is an error that you have been taught to believe.

Yes, the book is inanimate. All of us agree that the Word of God (christ) is living and active.

The Living Word of God, inanimate? How foolish that must sound to God. What do you get your morals to live by from, if not God’s word?

The faith and morals given by Christ to the CAtholic Church were whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. What is written there reflects everything the Church teaches, because it was writtten by Catholics, for Catholics. That is why nothing in it contradicts the Catholic faith which produced it.

There is a point that God stops giving chances. It may be today, it may be 25 years from now, but after that, your decision has been made and God being a gentleman, will you keep your decision forever.

I hear your passionate desire to get us “saved”, Hank, and I commend you for your concern and compassion. No Catholic believes they will be saved by separating themselves from the Holy Church, His Bride, for whom He gave His life.

 

[joe370]

So because you and a few others think that I am wrong, that makes you right?

Nobody is trying to gang up on you; they’re just trying to illustrate to you, why they (I) believe that the C.C. is Jesus’ established Church circa 33 AD See Matthew 16:17-19 and Matthew 28:20 –and hoping that you will at least attempt do the same.

If this were so, Why did God flood the Earth? Why does His word say that He will judge the Earth again, next time with fire?

**Not sure where you are going with that train of thought? **

You see, there are many opinions floating arround, but the only opinion that matters is that of the Lord. The best we have to understand His opinion is that book that you claim is inanimate.

**If that line of thinking was in fact the truth, (however your bible disagrees with you) --then why are there so many churches/denominations in the world, all teaching something different on some level; God surely is not a God of confusion, division, disunity and dissension, as your bible will surely attest to. Jesus built His church to properly disseminate the truths of His Bible, and it was working for 1500 years, right up to the point when man decided to usurp Gods bible and declare that His Bible was now the pillar and foundation of truth --which gave way to all the confusion, division, disunity and dissension in the protestant world today.

Does the spirit of truth teach different truths to each respective denomination or does the spirit of truth teach one truth to Jesus’ One Church established over 2 thousand years ago?
**
The Living Word of God, inanimate? How foolish that must sound to God.

God new that— “The Living Word of God” (the Word is Jesus by the way --Logos)]-- --His bible would be mishandled if he left it in the hands of individuals (private interpretation) that is why He gave us His Church --to protect it from being mishandled --misinterpreted. How foolish sola scriptura must sound to God.

What do you get your morals to live by from, if not God’s word?

**His created Church which codified and canonized Jesus’ created Bible
**
Do you know how many people had a similar discussion with Noah?

**Again, I am not sure what your point is? **

There were thousands of people who thought he was wrong too.

The C.C. and the members of Jesus’ Church certainly don’t think God is wrong! If they did, they wouldn’t belong to Gods Church.

The water had to reach their necks before they realised that Noah was right, but by then it was too late to get on the ark and their eternity was alreay set. There is a point that God stops giving chances. It may be today, it may be 25 years from now, but after that, your decision has been made and God being a gentleman, will let you keep your decision forever.

Actually it sounds like you are the one making very vague and general statements, and possibly passing judgment, and we all know what the bible says about passing judgment…

 

[heronimo]

:newidea:

What is your Idea?

 

[twb1621]

I have been trying to give answers to your questions. I do not claim to be a scholar, but I have tried to help you understand what truths I do know. You ignore them by claiming things like I am a child with a car and no drivers license. You are not hearing anything I say. Why do you keep asking me questions when it is obvious that you don’t care? The truth is the truth, and no amount of man’s doctrines can change the truth. God has not even a shadow of change and neither does His word.

The purpose for asking you these questions is to try to present you with Bible verses that you are completely ignoring so that you may realize that and possibly learn more. But it seems what you are saying Hank, is “I have too much pride to accept the possibility of considering anything you have to say that disagrees with my personal interpretation of the meaning of scripture.”

 

[HankZ]

Martin Luther did.

Through Martin Luther, the Lord began a work that has survived for 500+ years. Luther died yet what drove him to make an attempt to reform the RCC and bring biblical truths back to the church has not died. It is clear that it did not come from man, but from God. The Lord has a history of calling to people in many different ways when they turn away from Him.

 

[joe370]

Hank, I went through and read all the posts responding to you and they seem heartfelt and sincere and very difficult to refute from a protestant perspective. Five years ago, as a devout Lutheran, I wouldn’t have been able to challenge or refute any of these retorts being explicated; trust me I tried! It was then that I realized, if I can’t refute the fact that the C.C. is the church built by Jesus, promised by Jesus on Pentecost that the Holy Spirit (God) the Spirit of Truth would be with His established Church circa 33 AD "forever’ “until the end of time” ----the church that Jesus built on Kepha --and the Apostles and Prophets, with Jesus as the Divine Cornerstone, holding everything together --without Him, the whole thing would fall apart like a house of card, as opposed to the House of the Living God, then why am I not a part of it --the only thing ever built by God. Plenty of scripture has already been adduced on this thread to support my suppositions.

Nobody is trying to downplay Gods word (Jesus’ Bible) --We as catholics, all love and respect Jesus’ Bible and read it everyday, just as you do. The C.C. encourages this! The bible and Jesus’ One Church are on equal ground, after all, one is the written source of Gods teachings and the other is Jesus Himself, His Mystical Body, with Him as the Head of that Mystical Body --and Jesus is the savior of His Body, (not the savior of individuals who read His Bible, according to your bible) --the savior of His One Church, which means the anti-Christ will never vanquish Christ; the anti-Christ will never vanquish His Body, the Church or the members of His Mystical Body, the Church, providing they are not wolves in sheep’s clothing, and there are plenty of those, and there always have been and there always will be, due to satans never ending agenda to dismantle Jesus’ Mystical Body --to his own destruction, in the end --of course. The Bible is loved and cherished by all Catholics, just as it is by all Protestants, all Christians the world over. However, the bible is not what Jesus gave us --He gave us His Church…

and charged His chosen leaders, in His stead, to oversee His Church in an authoritative capacity, not hand out bibles (which didn’t even exist when the Apostles walked the earth; they taught mostly, orally) --to each individual so they could interpret as they saw fit; can you imagine if sola scriptura was the preferred vehicle of dissemination of Gods Teachings?

*"‘Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely **I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’" ** *Matt 28:19-20

*“Go into all the world and preach the good news (the Covenant) to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My Name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” *Mark 16:15-18

First His Apostles, Saint Paul, and His chosen disciples, people Jesus Himself hand-picked, when He walked the earth, then the episcopate, presbyterate, (Elders) and diaconates (deacons) --which were hand-picked by the Apostles, and Saint Paul, and this passing of the baton, so to speak, continued as a ritual, through the laying on of hands through every century --even the dark centuries (from Pentecost to the legalization of Christianity in 313 AD) --when the Church was being persecuted.

…and like the Jewish Temple of old where unsuitable sacrifices were offered everyday, and eventually abrogated, due to Jesus’ work on the cross, we are to gather there as faithful and devout Christians, where the only Sacrifice suitable to God, for our eternal salvation --is offered --Jesus’ Body–the Eucharist, where Christians can find the House of the Living God (In the O.T., the House of the Living God was the Jewish Temple; the emphasis was always on the temple of God, where the daily sacrifices were offered up to God; sola scriptura would have been blasphemy to the Jewish people )

The Awesome, Inspirational and Beloved Bible is not where Christians can ultimately find the Pillar and Foundation of Truth; Nowhere in the bible does it say that private interpretation of this wonderful collection of Books (God-breathed) --called the bible --is where the pillar and foundation of truth can be found. Jesus’ Church established by God on Pentecost is where Christians can find Jesus’ Mystical Body, the actual House of (Jesus’ Father) --the actual House of the One and Only Living God --and finally, where the Pillar and Foundation of the only Truth that should matter to Jesus’ brothers and sisters --can be found; the only place where the bible --Gods teachings --are taught and interpreted without a shred of dissension or division or confusion when these teachings of Jesus’ bible are being disseminated --that is what ultimately drew me in --the unparalleled unity, harmony and concord --(all hallmarks of Gods Bible) --of the Catholic Church…

 

[joe370]

…Jesus built His Church and promised His Church that it would never fail and that it would be guided by the H.S. forever; If the same can’t be said about the bible, in your bible, shouldn’t His established Church circa 33 AD, logically speaking, be the focus, the benchmark against which authentic Christianity should be measured, against which the bible should be interpreted.

In the end, for me anyway, it really came down to two critical factors: Jesus’ church could have easily survived without Jesus’ bible, after all it did for almost 300 year, until it was finally canonized/codified by the C.C.–BUT Jesus’ bible could have never survived without Jesus’ Church; as a matter of fact you and I wouldn’t even have this amazing Body of Work, we call the bible —without the Catholic Church; It was this same Church, through the first 300 years of Christianity, that fearlessly faced horrific persecutions, by the Roman Empire, so you and I could go to Jesus’ Church and read His wonderful Bible. The incredible miracle is the fact that selfless men and women
–martyrs of the C.C. during those awfully bleak and horrifically dark centuries not only survived but thrived in the end, and eventually supplanted the very empire that was persecuting Jesus’ Church. God of course should be given all the credit, for He predicted that nothing would ever destroy it, but these early leaders should never be forgotten, for they did things I don’t think I would have had the courage to do. They are the true heroes, the literal foundation of Jesus’ One true Church. Ironically though, some protestants will actually insist that true Christianity went in one direction while the Catholic Church went in another, apostatizing under Constantine; My question is, where is this true Christian Church, the Church Jesus said would never fail; it certainly can’t be found in the history books (the same church that always went by the name catholic 100’s of years before Constantine came onto the scene) --It has to be somewhere; Jesus said His Church would be, *“the light of the world. A town put on a hill may be seen by all. And a burning light is not put under a vessel, but on its table; so that its rays may be shining on all who are in the house. Even so let your light be shining before men, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.” *

Jesus’ Church is His Divine beacon of light for all takers, and as far as I am concerned, it’s called the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. Well that’s about all I can offer to you by way of explanation for my beliefs.

God bless you and good luck on your spiritual journey…

 

[guanophore]

Through Martin Luther, the Lord began a work that has survived for 500+ years.

Indeed. The fruit of his work, rebellion, separation, and division continues to multiply to this day! Ye shall know them by theri fruits.

Luther died yet what drove him to make an attempt to reform the RCC and bring biblical truths back to the church has not died.

Certainly men are always in need of Reform, and those who were giving examples of the faith in Luthers time and place at the top of the list. The problem is, however, that although there was corruption in Northern Europe, that corruption did not exist in the CAtholic Church in other areas of the world. This shows that the problem was not in the doctrine of the faith, but in politics, greed, and sinful behavior of certain persons perverting the Gospel.

It is clear that it did not come from man, but from God. The Lord has a history of calling to people in many different ways when they turn away from Him.

Indeed reform does come from God, but Luther did not reform the Church. Reformation did occur, and his work was certiainly a precipitant. The Lord does have a long hisotry of calling people in different ways. The HS worked in the church, among those obedient to His grace, to make needed changes.

 

[twb1621]

Through Martin Luther, the Lord began a work that has survived for 500+ years. Luther died yet what drove him to make an attempt to reform the RCC and bring biblical truths back to the church has not died. It is clear that it did not come from man, but from God. The Lord has a history of calling to people in many different ways when they turn away from Him.

Realistically, Luther was a Catholic who departed from the Church to start his own following based on his own interpretations. Over the last 500 years, so many people have “followed his example” that there are more than 60,000 variations or splits in beliefs each at conflict with the other. Even at the end of his life he admitted he was wrong about many things he preached including Sola Scriptura stating “…any milkmaid can come up with their own interpreations and start their own faith”.

The Catholic Church however, is 2000 years old with the same doctrines and only one continued belief system , the same one taught by the apostles and taught to them by Jesus, not to mention the largest Christian Faith in the world. So who’s teachings stood the test of time?

 

[CWBetts]

Through Martin Luther, the Lord began a work that has survived for 500+ years. Luther died yet what drove him to make an attempt to reform the RCC and bring biblical truths back to the church has not died. It is clear that it did not come from man, but from God. The Lord has a history of calling to people in many different ways when they turn away from Him.

Which particular Lutehrans are you talkng about? Evangelical? English? MS? And lets not forget Wesley, Calvin, and the others. The Reformation was NOT a work of God. The Council of Trent addressed the problems that did exist. The word of God says “by hteor fruits you shall know them” What are the fruits of the reofrmation? Division. Bigotry. Death. Destruction. Hate. Yes, the Reformation (or should I say Deformation) is something to be admired. Even a rudimentary study of the history will show that the reformers were simply disgruntled men who did not want to adhere to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[bookgirl32]

Through Martin Luther, the Lord began a work that has survived for 500+ years. Luther died yet what drove him to make an attempt to reform the RCC and bring biblical truths back to the church has not died. It is clear that it did not come from man, but from God. The Lord has a history of calling to people in many different ways when they turn away from Him.

That’s funny, so how long between when that 500+ years started and the 1500 years before that that Jesus actually came were we in need of Martin Luther?

I really thought that through Jesus, the Lord began a work that has survived 2000+ years. But you obviously don’t believe He’s capable of that, even though He promised it.

 

[fbl9]

Through Martin Luther, the Lord began a work that has survived for 500+ years. Luther died yet what drove him to make an attempt to reform the RCC and bring biblical truths back to the church has not died. It is clear that it did not come from man, but from God. The Lord has a history of calling to people in many different ways when they turn away from Him.

and at the rate his (Luther’s) work is going it won’t be long and it will be a single person and their bible that has the truth:shrug:
Hank when was the last time the bible saved someone?NEVER.
people are brought into salvation by the witness of others not the bible.

 

[fbl9]

, but after that, your decision has been made and God being a gentleman, will let you keep your decision forever.

well Hank you have just made me equal in power to God,by your own arguements previous to this post. and no i am not going to look them up for you…it is your belief not mine…

 

[maryrev12]

Hello
I’ve read this entire thread, and the way the truth is presented is wonderful. wow. I’ve been away from this forum for sometime… I was at (Edited to prevent board swarming) and after a while found myself reacting from pride instead of love, so I stopped. I am a convert- I was Calvinist. I am Catholic. I was lead to the Lord by a Calvinist. She taught me that I needed faith to know God. I was drawn by her inner peace and love, and longed for that in my life. I was 16. I begged on my knees all night to be given this faith that she had. I cried out in tears… and the Lord heard me. I will never forget that moment. He reached into my heart and turned on the light. Simple sounding words for the most astounding life changing love filled moment- *I believed! *As time went by I attended her Church and devoured the Bible. They taught me that all the world is destined to hell, and God has mercy on whom he will, and does the pot question the potter? no. The pot is grateful to be a noble vessel …

Because this wonderful person brought me to the greatest moment in my life, I hung on every word, and believed with all my heart that she taught me the truth. How could I not? And how can the osas people here not? It is a thick wall, hard to penetrate- to walk away from sola scriptura when it was given to you by one who introduced you to Jesus. But God uses everything for good.

I “walked with the Lord” for about 4 years…but my old lifestyle of partying and acting out in the flesh returned. Soon my heart was filled with grief… for I now knew, that I was not chosen- I was not one of the elect, for I kept backsliding- I was rocky ground, and the cares of the world choked out the life He gave me. But I still believed it… even if I wasn’t elected.

When I met my Catholic friend I bashed him. I argued and threw scripture at him that I knew would open his eyes to the truth. But he knew his Faith. And little by little my heart softened…the real truth penetrated- that God loves everyone. That he made us like Himself, with free will to choose - I could still choose! It took 10 years before I would join the Catholic Church. It was so very hard to abandon my first belief system… but, the Scriptures taught me that their is authority in the Church. That sola scriptura is not taught in the scriptures- that in fact sola scriptura is heresy and leads to division within the body of Christ. That our free will is essential in Gods plan, for it would be unjust to damn someone who can not choose but is trapped in sin. God is not unjust.

Pity those that cling to these heresies and keep up the good work. These seeds will penetrate, but it may take 10 years.

Never have we had such a medium like the internet, to reach into the homes of the separated brethren and give them the truth. Perhaps God will use the internet to heal the broken wounds of the reformation and His Church will become one again!!

God’s love to you all, and Merry Christmas
Hope, pray and obey
Single mindedness is to have one resolve
Serve Him
MaryRev12

 

[fbl9]

Hello
I’ve read this entire thread, and the way the truth is presented is wonderful. wow. I’ve been away from this forum for sometime… I was at (Edited to prevent board swarming) and after a while found myself reacting from pride instead of love, so I stopped)

i think i may take your advice and stop for now too…i am not reacting out of love but more towards anger(anger because of the beliefs of a mere man are leading too many astray)…God bless you …