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bookgirl32
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First of all, you didn’t answer the question. And, second of all, huh?
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CWBetts
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The only way to defend OSAS is to take verses out of context. The Bible clearly shaows that salvation is a lifelong process and that is is not a “no strings attached” proposition.
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bookgirl32
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I put this in another forum but I like my thought so here it is (I’m an English major / grammar lover):
Difference between Catholics and Sola Fide OSAS believers:
Catholics: Salvation is a free gift, salvation is a verb.
SFOSAS: Salvation is a free gift, salvation is a noun.
Make sense? Probably kind of simlisiticly dumb, but oh well.
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CWBetts
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I never really thought of it that way…very nicely put!!
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heronimo
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HankZ
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Non-Catholics come here for 2 reasons --because they are having doubts or to refute the teachings of Jesus’ Church. All I am asking you to do is refute what I (and others) have written; if you can’t then maybe it’s time to re-think things. I use sola scriptura ONLY to prove my points; I never employ the Traditions of the C.C. because non-Catholics reject them; I love Jesus’ Bible.You talk like the church is something you can point at and say there it is.
It is an edifice with an address, otherwise how would you and find it.
Christ church is made up of His believers. There is no other definition given. Do you refuse to accept the bible if your “church” deems it unreliable?
Why would I as A MEMBER of Jesus’ Church, the only church that codified and canonized the Bible, refuse to accept the bible. Why would you say that the C.C. deems it unreliable. Confused…
Jesus quoted from scripture on a very regular basis.
Not one word of the bible was written WHEN jESUS WALKED THE EARTH; Jesus was quoting from what we call the O.T. --cHECK FOR YOUR SELF…
Are you saying He should have spent more time pointing to traditions and doctrines when He was actually saying that traditions and doctrines were not following God?
I AM SORRY, BUT I AM NOT FOLLOWING YOUR LOGIC AT ALL; THE ONLY TRADITIONS THAT JESUS CONDEMNED WERE THE TRADITIONS OF TEMPLE LEADERS.
Jesus spoke against traditions and doctrines on several occations. Haven’t you read these rebutes He made to these people that followed tradtions and doctrines of men?
Do you really think Jesus was referring to the Church He established – "I]Jesus spoke against traditions and doctrines on several occations. "
Please feel free to prove me wrong; If I am wrong then I will admit it…
You have made general statements here and have said “Now prove me wrong.” If you are looking to argue, then I am sure you will be able to find someone to argue with. If you want to have a discussion, then I welcome it, but you have to have a place to start.
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HankZ
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Why do you make this statement?
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guanophore
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I agree, but I would also add that confession to others has a healing aspect.
James 5:15-17
16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
Actually, He gave His Spirit to the Church, before the NT was written. It is the Church that He promised to lead into all Truth.
I can’t imagine why anyone would! On the other hand, why someone would want to avoid being part of the One Church founded by the Lord Himself, I cannot imagine either!
I agree this is true, but the Church is also much more than just the believers. The Head of the Church is Christ, and the Soul of the Church is the HS. This is why the Church is infallible - because of her divine elements, not because of the fallible persons who are members of her. The HOly Bride of Christ is without spot or blemish.
We are made in the image and likeness of God. We are not puppets. He created us with free will and we can choose to jump out of His hand. Of course He is faithful, and will complete the work, but we must remain present to Him so this work can be done. If we outrage the Spirit of Grace, and spurn the blood that bought us, it will not be possible for Him to complete the work. This is what is meant by the unforgivable sin.
Perhaps you could try just looking at it from a different perspective. Could you at least try to understand why we see it this way, even if you don’t agree? I understand you were not on your high school debate team, but this is one of the skills in dialogue, to understand from another point of view.
I saw this in the readings yesterday: Tell me…
Titus 3:5-8
“…the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.”
Why does the Apostle say we “might” be justified? Why did he not say “justified forever”?
Why do we need hope for eternal life, if it is already ours? What is the purpose of meaning of hope at all, if it is a done deal?
Why does the Apostle say that hope is so great, if it is really unnecessary?
Are you implying that the Pope is a “blind leader”?
We do not ignore scripture, Hank. We interpret scripture from the mindset of those who wrote it. We understand it differently because we have received the Apostolic Teaching, which informs our understanding of what was written.
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twb1621
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Hank, you are going all over the place in subjects to discuss. It would be a great deal more beneficial to stick with one issue at a time. Can we do that? I ask if you would go over the post at the link below and give me your thoughts on it please…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4577875&postcount=468
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guanophore
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Because you implied that, because no one could snatch us out of His hand, that we could not “squirm” or jump out. Do you not see that Israel was chosen by God, and sealed by the covenant of circumcision, yet many rebelled against him and died in their sins?
This does not mean that God was unable to preserve them. They chose not to continue in the faith. They did not fight the good fight. They did not finish the race.
" Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." 1 Cor 9:24-10:1
Paul uses here a common image from the games. He is illustrating salvation. Eternal life is the prize for which we compete. He is saying that all the people in the race are running (seeking salvation) not all will obtain the prize.
Of what do you think it is possible that Paul might be “disqualified”? this means that one began the race, but was removed from it, or became ineligible for the prize. If it were not possible to fail to win the prize, or impossible to be disqualified, why would Paul use such an illlustration? what other possible meaning could it have?
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HankZ
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I have been trying to give answers to your questions. I do not claim to be a scholar, but I have tried to help you understand what truths I do know. You ignore them by claiming things like I am a child with a car and no drivers license. You are not hearing anything I say. Why do you keep asking me questions when it is obvious that you don’t care? The truth is the truth, and no amount of man’s doctrines can change the truth. God has not even a shadow of change and neither does His word.
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HankZ
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Rewards. Read that verse again and think of the rewards God offers to His chosen as the prize that Paul is talking about. The rewards He will give to those who do the will of Him, will be unbelievable. Salvation is not the reward, because that would not be a gift any longer.
Circumcision is part of the Old Covenant. The blood of Jesus has given us the New Covenant.
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bookgirl32
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So some are going to have a better time in Heaven than others, or a better Heaven, so to speak?
So basically Paul’s saying God wants us to try to be good so that we can get something out of it, you mean.
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heronimo
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Who sent Martin Luther to reform the church?
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CWBetts
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Martin Luther did.
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HankZ
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I have the same Holy Spirit in me as Peter recieved in the upper room and I do not need to have a lineage of men whether real or made up. Does that same Holy Spirit flurish in Christ’s Church today? Certainly. Jesus followers are all filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised this, and has been faithful to grant it. Jesus did not leave His believers alone as orphans, but has stayed with His church and will continue to stay with His church until His awesome return. It is clear that you think the RCC is the one true church, I respectfully disagree with you.I was rocky ground and had seed thrown on me. I shot up and had no roots. So I fell back into my life style which I will not discuss here, but can assure you, it was not a christian way of living. I had what is very common, a feelings conversion. I believed that I could make myself better by fulfilling my part. As I said, I fell away from this “faith.” I also see myself where the seed fell among the weeds and the things of life quickly made me long for the “old life,” I had that was never satisfying. I wanted to fill my life with things and stuff. It wasn’t until I was born-again, that I realized that life is about whorshipping God. I was created to serve Him, as was every person who has had a breath of air in their lounges. This final seed was cast on good soil. I was ready, willing and because God caused me to be, I was able to recieve the gospel with a Joy I had never known before.
**That is awesome, and if this is where you feel closest to God, then your journey is over. **
The explinations given in this thread about why OSAS is wrong, have been inaccurate and/or quotes have been taken out of context. I have not been given any answer that refutes what I read in God’s word,
**Really!!!
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not even a tiny bit of truth has been given to dispute it. If someone choses to ignore scripture and blindly follow the blind leader, Jesus said that person will end up in the ditch with the blind leader.
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Are you really calling the C.C., the only Apostolic Church founded by Jesus --the only church that maintains continuity, all the way back to Pentecost --the only church God promised to all Christians --the only church referred to as Jesus’ Mystical Body, the house of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth --the only church that started circa 33 AD as a mustard seed, and is now the largest herb, and will continue to exist “until the end of time” --"forever?"
*Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. *
**When Jesus lived on the earth He organized His One Church so that all people could receive His teachings (John 1:1-14), so that we could all return to God’s love and grace. After Jesus Christ ascended to heaven, His apostles continued to receive revelation from the Holy Spirit so that they could continue the mission of bringing Christ to others such as you and I. Jesus said His Church would be “the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid” (Matt. 5:14). which begs the question, why haven’t I heard of your church before now, if it is in fact the light of the world, a city on a hill which cannot be hidden?
Can the OSAS church (never heard of that church) trace its lineage all the way back to Jesus, or to a mere man? If this fact is unimportant to you then I guess we can dispense with the debate…**
God bless…
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fbl9
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Hank all you have done since coming here (this thread)is tried to sell the lie of osas.whenever any verse has quoted (even for the OT) you claim out of context…it is painfully clear that you are the one taking verses out of context distorting them…
i asked you something and you run and hide,behind"well that’s between God and me"tells me,you honestly don’t believe in osas…it is something that has been put into you by the teller of all lies.
Hank what does salvation mean?to me it means to be with Jesus Christ,His Father and the Holy Spirit FOREVER…if that isn’t reward enough,you are a most greedy human being.
there is no possible way for God to will the salvation of ALL men,yet only chose to give salvation to only the elect…to say that God wills all mens salvation yet only allow a few to be given it makes God yes a liar…not my standard but it is your standard…yes Hank your beliefs turn God into a a liar.not mine but yours.
i don’t balme you for this Hank but the misguided persons who taught you this blasphemy,called osas…
the bible can not show you mercy,it may show you the way of mercy but in it’s self it can not show you mercy for it is a inaminate object.
i can show you mercy a book can’t
CWBetts can show you mercy a book can’t
twb1621 can show you mercy a book can’t
guanaphore can show you mercy a book can’t
can you see where this is going Hank,i can plead before God for your soul your bible can do nothing for you…you can make your bible out to be God but it isn’t.
the bible was written under the insppiration of the Holy Spirit,but the Holy Spirit didn’t write it a human being did…
Hank if you can claim my quote from Ezichial was taken out of context you are not even reading a bible but your book.read the entire chapter 18…tell me that you still belive in osas and i will say you are calling God a lair.
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bookgirl32
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:newidea:
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HankZ
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So because you and a few others think that I am wrong, that makes you right? If this were so, Why did God flood the Earth? Why does His word say that He will judge the Earth again, next time with fire? You see, there are many opinions floating arround, but the only opinion that matters is that of the Lord. The best we have to understand His opinion is that book that you claim is inanimate. The Living Word of God, inanimate? How foolish that must sound to God. What do you get your morals to live by from, if not God’s word? Do you know how many people had a similar discussion with Noah? There were thousands of people who thought he was wrong too. The water had to reach their necks before they realised that Noah was right, but by then it was too late to get on the ark and their eternity was alreay set. There is a point that God stops giving chances. It may be today, it may be 25 years from now, but after that, your decision has been made and God being a gentleman, will let you keep your decision forever.
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joe370
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Good evening Hank…
You said…
**You have made general statements here and have said “Now prove me wrong.” **
Isn’t that kind of what an amicable debate is? It isn’t about me being right or you being right; it’s about truth, and your Bible says that Jesus’ One Church is where truth can be found. I guess that is why I put so much emphasis on finding the one church Jesus built in 1st century Palestine – the one church that the Holy Spirit was sent to --on Pentecost --the one church guided and protect by the Holy Spirit --the only church that, (according to the bible) is Jesus’ church, Jesus’ body, His Fathers house (house of the living God)—where Jesus’ one truth can be found as opposed to all the conflicting truths in all of the man-made churches in the world today. (non of them established in 1st century Palestine --emphasis added) --That certainly isn’t my opinion , after all I was a devout Lutheran for many years until I opened my eyes and approached the matter from a logical standpoint,as opposed to my own myopic views as a Lutheran --or even the views of the Catholic Church! If you were to read the works of the early church leaders, (the same people that gave you your bible) --who all referred to Jesus’ church as the catholic church for the first 300 years of Christianity–(pre-Constantine era) --for the single purpose of making a clear distinction between Jesus’ One true church, house of the living God, pillar and foundation of truth —and all the other heretical movements (gnostic/apocryphal sects). All I am trying to do is emulate the early church leaders (the same leaders chosen through the laying on of hands by the Apostles; the same leaders that gave all of us Jesus’ bible) --by emphasizing/focusing on that same clear distinction between Jesus’ universal church, the C.C. --and all of the other churches (all formed well after Pentecost --the birth of Christ’s Church) –claiming to be Jesus’ One true church --Jesus’ One Mystical body, the house of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus is the savior of His body, not bodies; Jesus is the savior of His church, not churches. I feel that I have been exceedingly specific in my posts, and if you don’t agree with this very specific, logical reasoning --if you don’t believe that Jesus built One Apostolic Church circa 33 AD, (He did not “build” any of the churches --post-protestant reformation) --then there is really nothing more to be discussed. I am an errant man, and if I am wrong vis-a-vis this very important impasse --open my eyes to the truth, which again is His Church according to your bible – to what you consider, the bible claims, to be Jesus’ One true Church, Jesus’ Mystical Body, the one house of the living God, the pillar and foundation of His One truth, with Jesus as the head of His Church --Jesus as the Savior of His One Church–after all it is our eternal souls were talking about.
If you are looking to argue, then I am sure you will be able to find someone to argue with. If you want to have a discussion, then I welcome it, but you have to have a place to start.
Again, I stressed a couple of times already that I would never try to impose my beliefs on anyone; I’m simply sharing my journey back to Jesus’ ONE church --His Fathers house --the pillar and foundation of truth --the church on earth where the "spirit of truth’ can be found (Pentecost)
You said…
**You have made general statements here and have said “Now prove me wrong.” **
Isn’t that kind of what an amicable debate is? It isn’t about me being right or you being right; it’s about truth, and your Bible says that Jesus’ One Church is where truth can be found. I guess that is why I put so much emphasis on finding the one church Jesus built in 1st century Palestine – the one church that the Holy Spirit was sent to --on Pentecost --the one church guided and protect by the Holy Spirit --the only church that, (according to the bible) is Jesus’ church, Jesus’ body, His Fathers house (house of the living God)—where Jesus’ one truth can be found as opposed to all the conflicting truths in all of the man-made churches in the world today. (non of them established in 1st century Palestine --emphasis added) --That certainly isn’t my opinion , after all I was a devout Lutheran for many years until I opened my eyes and approached the matter from a logical standpoint,as opposed to my own myopic views as a Lutheran --or even the views of the Catholic Church! If you were to read the works of the early church leaders, (the same people that gave you your bible) --who all referred to Jesus’ church as the catholic church for the first 300 years of Christianity–(pre-Constantine era) --for the single purpose of making a clear distinction between Jesus’ One true church, house of the living God, pillar and foundation of truth —and all the other heretical movements (gnostic/apocryphal sects). All I am trying to do is emulate the early church leaders (the same leaders chosen through the laying on of hands by the Apostles; the same leaders that gave all of us Jesus’ bible) --by emphasizing/focusing on that same clear distinction between Jesus’ universal church, the C.C. --and all of the other churches (all formed well after Pentecost --the birth of Christ’s Church) –claiming to be Jesus’ One true church --Jesus’ One Mystical body, the house of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus is the savior of His body, not bodies; Jesus is the savior of His church, not churches. I feel that I have been exceedingly specific in my posts, and if you don’t agree with this very specific, logical reasoning --if you don’t believe that Jesus built One Apostolic Church circa 33 AD, (He did not “build” any of the churches --post-protestant reformation) --then there is really nothing more to be discussed. I am an errant man, and if I am wrong vis-a-vis this very important impasse --open my eyes to the truth, which again is His Church according to your bible – to what you consider, the bible claims, to be Jesus’ One true Church, Jesus’ Mystical Body, the one house of the living God, the pillar and foundation of His One truth, with Jesus as the head of His Church --Jesus as the Savior of His One Church–after all it is our eternal souls were talking about.
If you are looking to argue, then I am sure you will be able to find someone to argue with. If you want to have a discussion, then I welcome it, but you have to have a place to start.
Again, I stressed a couple of times already that I would never try to impose my beliefs on anyone; I’m simply sharing my journey back to Jesus’ ONE church --His Fathers house --the pillar and foundation of truth --the church on earth where the "spirit of truth’ can be found (Pentecost)
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