The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[HankZ]

Hey Hank Z…

**If you think of Christ church as a denomination, whether Catholic, Baptist, Luthern, ect…, then you would have a false idea of what Christ church is. Christ church is not bound by affiliations, popes, denominations, or anything else. Christ true church are His followers. They are in nearly every city in the world… **

Which church that is *“in nearly every city in the world” *would you recommend I attend? The bible says Jesus built One church and that He would be with His One Church “forever” --nothing will ever vanquish His One Church which is His Body, the House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth,; furthermore, Jesus is th Savior of His One Church, according to the Bible. and He built His Church circa 33 AD. So, if Jesus’ Church cannot fail, then His established Church, in the 1st century which is *“in nearly every city in the world” * must still exist today amongst all the other churches which can trace their origin back to a man or women, not Jesus Christ --not to impugn anyones work of course. I am just trying to be logical!

And so I say to you, you are Peter, (kepha)and upon this rock (kepha) I will build my church, (not churches) and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

**…The Holy Spirit has never caused a new church, that has been accomplished by pride and false teachings… **

The Holy Spirit is not responsible for any new church, accomplished by pride and false teachings or otherwise. The Holy Spirit was sent to Jesus’ One Holy, Catholic (universal) --*“go out and make disciples of all nations” *–and Apostolic Church circa 33 AD

.**…When a false teaching arises in a church and the members are too prideful to see or admit they are wrong, the true followers of Christ should leave that church if they won’t listen, yet not forget assembling as is requested by Paul. **

Again, where can Jesus’ assembly be found? If we want to find Jesus, who is way the truth and the life, shouldn’t we as true followers attempt to find the Church Jesus Christ built; the Church that He promised to save; the church that was started circa 33 AD and would last “forever”:

“I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth… (there can only be one truth propagated by the one church established by Jesus circa 33 AD) The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you.” John 14 --the Church comprised of both the “wheat and the chaff” – Jesus predicted such corruption was inevitable:* “It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come!” *Luke 17:1 --the church that would be one:

John 10:16; – there shall be one fold and one shepherd Eph 4:3-6; – one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father Rom 16:17; – avoid those who create dissensions 1 Cor 1:10; – I urge that there be no divisions among you Phil 2:2; – be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing Rom 15:5; – God grant you to think in harmony with one another Jn 17:17-23; – I pray that they may be one, as we are one Jn 17: 23; – that they may be brought to perfection as one 1 Cor 12:13; – in one spirit we were baptized into one body Rom 12:5; – we, though many, are one body in Christ Eph 4:4; – one body, one Spirit, called to one hope Col 3:15; – the peace into which you were called in one body.

As a former Protestant (Lutheran) this lack of unity and oneness really bothered me; none of the preceding passages/commandments were being followed outside the C.C. --really bothered me!

Church isn’t in the building or the structure, but in the Christians, who are true believers of Jesus Christ.

I couldn’t agree more; Jesus’ One Church, established in the 1st century by God --the House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth --guided by the Holy Spirit until the end of time --"isn’t in the building or the structure, but in the Christians, who are true believers of Jesus Christ.’

Of course I would never try and impose my beliefs on anyone else; if I am wrong could you illustrate why I am wrong? I am very open-minded!

I said, Christ believers are in nearly every city in the world. That does not mean there is a church in nearly every city in the world that follows Christ. You want to find a church that follows Christ, look in the phone book and ask a few questions of the pastors of each church. Do as the Barians did and check their teeachings against the Holy Scriptures. If they are following the bible, then you are on to the second step. Listen to the sermons, and again, check them against the scriptures to be sure they are following the word of God. This is what Paul praised the Barians for doing. They double checked everything he taught them. He said he was s proud of them and what a great thing it was that they followed the scriptures more than they followed him.

Are you open minded enough to trust God’s word when searching for a Christian church?

 

[HankZ]

So what you are telling me is that if a man would accept Christ as his savior, POOF!!! He is saved for all time. Then later in life, he turns his back on God, and renounces God, and fully embraces Paganism (just as an example) he is still saved? I don’t think can be backed upo with Scriptures…

What nonsense is this? Do you think the Holy Spirit able to what Jesus said He would do? Can the Holy Spirit guide believers or do they all turn into idol whorshipping pagens and Satanist? Are you afraid to believe in Jesus, completely because you think this will be your fate if you become some sort of Jesus freak? It is not the case, I am happy to admit to being a Jesus freak and have not had the slightest urge to whorship Satan or any idols. None of my christian friends have become Satanist or idol whorshippers that I know of either. I know of a few friends I went to school with, that I am not too sure of, but I don’t think they count?

 

[joe370]

I said, Christ believers are in nearly every city in the world. That does not mean there is a church in nearly every city in the world that follows Christ. You want to find a church that follows Christ, look in the phone book and ask a few questions of the pastors of each church.

**The first thing I did is establish when that church was established and if it was established by Jesus circa 33 AD or by a mere man, e.g. Luther, Zwingli or Calvin --the pioneers that spearheaded the reformation. All churches post Martin Luther are churches established by men, not God --again, not to impugn their work! **

Do as the Barians did and check their teeachings against the Holy Scriptures. If they are following the bible, then you are on to the second step. Listen to the sermons, and again, check them against the scriptures to be sure they are following the word of God. This is what Paul praised the Barians for doing. They double checked everything he taught them. He said he was s proud of them and what a great thing it was that they followed the scriptures more than they followed him.

**Did JESUS establish a Church or a Bible (both equally important) to guide and shepherd His followers?

Is His Church the pillar and foundation of truth** or is it His Bible?

Is it His Church or the bible that has kept His followers united? Since the very inception of Martin Luther’s doctrine of sola scriptura; Jesus’ followers have fractured into many many denominations, violating Jesus’ doctrines of unity and oneness.
Are you open minded enough to trust God’s word when searching for a Christian church?

Yes I am open-minded, so please feel free to refute what I have proffered.

 

[joe370]

**Paul praised the Barians for doing. They double checked everything he taught them. He said he was s proud of them and what a great thing it was that they followed the scriptures more than they followed him…
**

By the way the bible didn’t exist when Saint Paul uttered these words; He was referring to his letters and the Old Testament.

 

[HankZ]

I said, Christ believers are in nearly every city in the world. That does not mean there is a church in nearly every city in the world that follows Christ. You want to find a church that follows Christ, look in the phone book and ask a few questions of the pastors of each church.

**The first thing I did is establish when that church was established and if it was established by Jesus circa 33 AD or by a mere man, e.g. Luther, Zwingli or Calvin --the pioneers that spearheaded the reformation. All churches post Martin Luther are churches established by men, not God --again, not to impugn their work! **

Do as the Barians did and check their teeachings against the Holy Scriptures. If they are following the bible, then you are on to the second step. Listen to the sermons, and again, check them against the scriptures to be sure they are following the word of God. This is what Paul praised the Barians for doing. They double checked everything he taught them. He said he was s proud of them and what a great thing it was that they followed the scriptures more than they followed him.

**Did JESUS establish a Church or a Bible (both equally important) to guide and shepherd His followers?

Is His Church the pillar and foundation of truth** or is it His Bible?

Is it His Church or the bible that has kept His followers united? Since the very inception of Martin Luther’s doctrine of sola scriptura; Jesus’ followers have fractured into many many denominations, violating Jesus’ doctrines of unity and oneness.
Are you open minded enough to trust God’s word when searching for a Christian church?

Yes I am open-minded, so please feel free to refute what I have proffered.

You talk like the church is something you can point at and say there it is. Christ church is made up of His believers. There is no other definition given. Do you refuse to accept the bible if your “church” deems it unreliable? Jesus quoted from scripture on a very regular basis. Are you saying He should have spent more time pointing to traditions and doctrines when He was actually saying that traditions and doctrines were not following God? Jesus spoke against traditions and doctrines on several occations. Haven’t you read these rebutes He made to these people that followed tradtions and doctrines of men?

 

[HankZ]

**Paul praised the Barians for doing. They double checked everything he taught them. He said he was s proud of them and what a great thing it was that they followed the scriptures more than they followed him…
**

By the way the bible didn’t exist when Saint Paul uttered these words; He was referring to his letters and the Old Testament.

What do you think the Old Testament and those letters have become? The Bible!

 

[joe370]

You talk like the church is something you can point at and say there it is.

It is an edifice with an address, otherwise how would you and find it.

Christ church is made up of His believers. There is no other definition given. Do you refuse to accept the bible if your “church” deems it unreliable?

Why would I as A MEMBER of Jesus’ Church, the only church that codified and canonized the Bible, refuse to accept the bible. Why would you say that the C.C. deems it unreliable. Confused…

Jesus quoted from scripture on a very regular basis.

Not one word of the bible was written WHEN jESUS WALKED THE EARTH; Jesus was quoting from what we call the O.T. --cHECK FOR YOUR SELF…

Are you saying He should have spent more time pointing to traditions and doctrines when He was actually saying that traditions and doctrines were not following God?

I AM SORRY, BUT I AM NOT FOLLOWING YOUR LOGIC AT ALL; THE ONLY TRADITIONS THAT JESUS CONDEMNED WERE THE TRADITIONS OF TEMPLE LEADERS.

Jesus spoke against traditions and doctrines on several occations. Haven’t you read these rebutes He made to these people that followed tradtions and doctrines of men?

Do you really think Jesus was referring to the Church He established – "I]Jesus spoke against traditions and doctrines on several occations. "

Non-Catholics come here for 2 reasons --because they are having doubts or to refute the teachings of Jesus’ Church. All I am asking you to do is refute what I (and others) have written; if you can’t then maybe it’s time to re-think things. I use sola scriptura ONLY to prove my points; I never employ the Traditions of the C.C. because non-Catholics reject them; I love Jesus’ Bible.

Please feel free to prove me wrong; If I am wrong then I will admit it…

 

[joe370]

I see you are off line; if you get the chance to refute anything: please do. I am always eager to see things from a different perspective…

The Bible talks about Jesus’ established Church; His kingdom here on earth; He never mentions the Bible as the “pillar and foundation of truth:” If His Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and His Church, which loves His Bible, codified and canonized His Bible, and you trust His Bible, which was given to you by the C.C., then surely you can trust His Church.

Go to your K.J.B lexicon and you will see that His Church is mentioned over 100 times; the Bible isn’t mentioned once. The point isn’t to minimize the importance of His Bible, it is to amplify the importance of His Church. Why do you belong to the church you belong to, if Jesus isn’t its founder, is the question I simply couldn’t answer as a former Lutheran! Jesus’ Church was built in the first half of the first century, so the people who enter in to it could/can* “be fishers of men” *and spread the good news (the good news of the bible). His Church and His Bible unite fellow Christians. A Church without His Bible is not His Church; A bible without His Church is still His Bible, but leads to a fractured Christianity. All man-made churches with His bible in toe, have led to disunity, division and confusion, as can be readily witnessed in the protestant churches today --And we all know that *“God is not the author of confusion, but of peace” *

Just look at all the protestant andnon-denominational churches that have popped up since the reformation; it is truly mind-boggling.

Prior to the reformation, with the exception of the E.O.C. --which split from the C.C. due to authoritative reasons (however they do share most of the Traditions held by the C.C.) --Jesus’ Church was one

Jesus said:

I pray that they may be one, as we are one Jn 17: 23; – that they may be brought to perfection as one 1 Cor 12:13–undivided --of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing Rom 15:5 --thinking in harmony with one another Jn 17:17-23 --in one spirit, baptized into one body Rom 12:5; – His Church, though many, are one body in Christ Eph 4:4; – one body, one Spirit, called to one hope Col 3:15; – the peace into which you were called in one body.

Jesus has but one Body, which is His church, one Spirit to which we were are all called to one hope. Jesus’ Bible, protected by His Church says that God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. As a former Lutheran, confusion is all I could find in the Protestant world…

 

[joe370]

What does Jesus think about His create wok –His Church –His Kingdom here on earth –the same Kingdom God promise to all in the O.T…

*And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, (kepha) and upon this rock (kepha) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. *

*To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God.

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
*

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Clearly Jesus died for His established Church and anyone who belongs to it.

For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

*And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him (Jesus) as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way. If the Church is Jesus’ Mystical Body, then there can be only one church, for there is only one Christ and one truth –the “spirit of truth.” *

*Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body… Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it…That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish…For no man ever yet hated his own body; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church… This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. *

Jesus and His Church are synonymous.

*And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
*
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God.

*But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. *

There can be only one truth (truth is not relative) ergo there can be only one House of the Living God and one pillar and ground of the truth.

*Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. *

*The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. [The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.] *

*And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. *

We are saved by Jesus’ Church.

*And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. *

*And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. *

The early Christians gathered together in Jesus’ Church, and so should we.

*All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace be with you all. Amen. [It was written to Titus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Cretians, from Nicopolis of Macedonia.] *

*Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. *

And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

*Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren.

And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
*
*And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches .
*

 

[joe370]

As you can see, Jesus’ Church was/is the focal point of Christianity.

Once I decided to free myself of all my pre-conceived notions of what I thought was true Christianity and started viewing Christianity through the prism of logic, (AS OPPOSED TO THE C.C., or any church for that matter) all the pieces of the puzzle came together perfectly, and the C.C. is the only church that fit the bill --the only church that met all of the requisite characteristics of Jesus’ Church established circa 33 AD.

Look forward to your refutation…

 

[joe370]

I was rocky ground and had seed thrown on me. I shot up and had no roots. So I fell back into my life style which I will not discuss here, but can assure you, it was not a christian way of living. I had what is very common, a feelings conversion. I believed that I could make myself better by fulfilling my part. As I said, I fell away from this “faith.” I also see myself where the seed fell among the weeds and the things of life quickly made me long for the “old life,” I had that was never satisfying. I wanted to fill my life with things and stuff. It wasn’t until I was born-again, that I realized that life is about whorshipping God. I was created to serve Him, as was every person who has had a breath of air in their lounges. This final seed was cast on good soil. I was ready, willing and because God caused me to be, I was able to recieve the gospel with a Joy I had never known before.

**That is awesome, and if this is where you feel closest to God, then your journey is over. **

The explinations given in this thread about why OSAS is wrong, have been inaccurate and/or quotes have been taken out of context. I have not been given any answer that refutes what I read in God’s word,

**Really!!!

**
not even a tiny bit of truth has been given to dispute it. If someone choses to ignore scripture and blindly follow the blind leader, Jesus said that person will end up in the ditch with the blind leader.
Reply With Quote

Are you really calling the C.C., the only Apostolic Church founded by Jesus --the only church that maintains continuity, all the way back to Pentecost --the only church God promised to all Christians --the only church referred to as Jesus’ Mystical Body, the house of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth --the only church that started circa 33 AD as a mustard seed, and is now the largest herb, and will continue to exist “until the end of time” --"forever?"

*Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. *

**When Jesus lived on the earth He organized His One Church so that all people could receive His teachings (John 1:1-14), so that we could all return to God’s love and grace. After Jesus Christ ascended to heaven, His apostles continued to receive revelation from the Holy Spirit so that they could continue the mission of bringing Christ to others such as you and I. Jesus said His Church would be “the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid” (Matt. 5:14). which begs the question, why haven’t I heard of your church before now, if it is in fact the light of the world, a city on a hill which cannot be hidden?

Can the OSAS church (never heard of that church) trace its lineage all the way back to Jesus, or to a mere man? If this fact is unimportant to you then I guess we can dispense with the debate…**

God bless…

 

[joshua_b]

This far from true. Who is more powerful than God? Jesus said none can be snatched from the Father’s hand, do you think they can wiggle their way out of the Father’s hand? He who started a good work is faithful to complete it.

So God takes away our free will when we are “saved”?

 

[twb1621]

…

Do you believe there is a satan and Do you understand these words Jesus spoke and why?

**“…Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the Holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood. **

Why would it be necessary to keep watch if once saved always saved?

**I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them. So be vigilant and remember that for three years, night and day, I unceasingly admonished each of you with tears. And now I commend you to God and to that gracious word of his that can build you up and give you the inheritance among all who are consecrated. I have never wanted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. **

Again, Why would it be necessary to keep watch and how could it be that men within this group could turn perverting the truth if once saved always saved?

**
“You know well that these very hands have served my needs and my companions. In every way I have shown you that by hard work of that sort we must help the weak, and keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus who himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’” (Acts Ch 20. 28-35)**

Jesus Said; “…Simon, Simon! **Remember that Satan has asked for you, to sift you all like wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon that your faith may never fail. You in turn must strengthen your brothers.” **(Luke 22: 31-32)

Do you understand this prophecy?

Check the link and tell me, wouldn’t “Sifted like wheat” look something like thislink below? After looking over the Chart, remember that the CC has maintained the Strength of Jesus’ Church through the power of the Holy Spirit for 2000 years and today numbers over one billion Christians, one sixth of the entire world population.

scborromeo.org/images/fig1.pdf

 

[NotWorthy]

If you think of Christ church as a denomination, whether Catholic, Baptist, Luthern, ect…, then you would have a false idea of what Christ church is. Christ church is not bound by affiliations, popes, denominations, or anything else. Christ true church are His followers. They are in nearly every city in the world. The Holy Spirit has never caused a new church, that has been accomplished by pride and false teachings. When a false teaching arises in a church and the members are too prideful to see or admit they are wrong, the true followers of Christ should leave that church if they won’t listen, yet not forget assembling as is requested by Paul. Church isn’t in the building or the structure, but in the Christians, who are true believers of Jesus Christ.

You forget that a church has people within it that has authority. This authority was given to the Apostles, and the need for this authority certainly didn’t end with their deaths (as the emergence of numerous heresies like OSAS prove out).

It is the rejection of this authority that has caused denomination to split off from the Catholic Church. Doctrines of Men. Period.

 

[NotWorthy]

And you have just pointed out the single biggest problem with Calvinism! And I can’t seem to find that in the Bible anywhere. I wonder why that is?

Calvinisim is next to OSAS in its bastardization of the truth. Take a few trees and remove the rest of the forest and these two “truths” are what you are left with.

 

[NotWorthy]

The scripture is clear that we should confess our sins to not only God, but to brothers so as to have the accountability of not to continue in the acts as an unbeliever.

But what are these brothers supposed to do with these confessions.

To the flock, Jesus says you must forgive your brother, or else you won’t be forgiven by your heavenly Father.

To the Apostles (of whom the Catholic Church succeeded to), Jesus says you can forgive or not forgive and heaven will do the same.

You see, it’s about authority.

 

[NotWorthy]

This far from true. Who is more powerful than God? Jesus said none can be snatched from the Father’s hand, do you think they can wiggle their way out of the Father’s hand? He who started a good work is faithful to complete it.

“Snatched from God’s Hand” is an external force removing a soul from his hand. This does not cover those that simply jump off on their own pleasure.

Otherwise, God would be holding someone against their will.

 

[CWBetts]

What nonsense is this? Do you think the Holy Spirit able to what Jesus said He would do? Can the Holy Spirit guide believers or do they all turn into idol whorshipping pagens and Satanist? Are you afraid to believe in Jesus, completely because you think this will be your fate if you become some sort of Jesus freak? It is not the case, I am happy to admit to being a Jesus freak and have not had the slightest urge to whorship Satan or any idols. None of my christian friends have become Satanist or idol whorshippers that I know of either. I know of a few friends I went to school with, that I am not too sure of, but I don’t think they count?

So you are saying that no one who has ever been “saved” ever fall away? Absolute nonsense. If that were the case, churches would be overflowing every sunday, but, alas, they are not. People DO fall away and turn their backs on Christ.

 

[guanophore]

Where do you see in this anything that indicates your effort? In case your searching for it, it is not there. God’s elect means that He chooses those who He chooses, period.

God is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. The elect need to lay hold of that which has laid hold of them. It is not passive, but participative. We work out what is working in us. We strive, struggle, run the race, fight the good fight. I see it all over!

 

[Alindawyl]

The explinations given in this thread about why OSAS is wrong, have been inaccurate and/or quotes have been taken out of context. I have not been given any answer that refutes what I read in God’s word, not even a tiny bit of truth has been given to dispute it. If someone choses to ignore scripture and blindly follow the blind leader, Jesus said that person will end up in the ditch with the blind leader.

Once more, I shall reiterate:

John 15. the entire chapter. Jesus is instructing his listeners to remain faithful or suffer the consequences. They already believe in him, or he would be asking them to BECOME faithful rather than REMAIN faithful. If they have been saved once for all of time, why do they need to be reminded to remain faithful? Their salvation should be guaranteed.

The parable of the sower of seeds. You state that in your own personal experience the seed for you fell on rocky ground and among the weeds at one time. You admit that you had faith and yet lost it, only to regain it again. How does that fit in with saved once for all of time?

1 Corinthians 9, the entire chapter but specifically the last few verses. Saint Paul gives a few extremely short parables about sports. Quite apropos when speaking to the people of Corinth, who lived right where the Isthmian games were held. He then concludes with his own example, that he himself worries about not achieving salvation if he does not keep “exercising his faith”, so to speak. Again, how does that sound like saved once for all of time?

Romans 11:13-23. Just as in John 15, an admonishment to REMAIN in God’s good graces. Concluding with a promise that those who have fallen away always have the opportunity to return to God. Another clear statement that the faithful must work to keep their faith, and that it is possible to regain faith which has been lost. How in the world does that fit in with saved once for all of time?

If we’re taking these passages out of context, then please tell us the context that we should be using. If the explanation of the Church is wrong, then what is the correct explanation of what these passages are actually saying?