The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[NotWorthy]

My statements are never, ever directed at you. I am sorry if I sometimes word things poorly and it seems as though I point a finger. I am a high school drop out who has only recently learned how to use a computer. It is never my intent to play God and pretend to understand your relationship with the Savior. Again, I am sorry and do not mean any insult or otherwise.

Instead of apologizing for insulting me (don’t worry, I’m too thick skinned for that!), I’d still like you to address these points:

                 Originally Posted by **NotWorthy**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4562778#post4562778)                 
             *Covenant, man!!! Covenant!!!  All Covenants are between two parties.  That's the "deal", Hank!

So, which is it, Hank?
Good deeds are wonderful, or good deeds are like filthy rags?

If I said, “it is only through good works that I will maintain my salvation*”, then you might have a coherent point. Where did I say that, Hank? I’m simply saying good works are a piece in the puzzle, if you will allow my slang. Deal?

Only because Jesus commands it, and repeatedly tells us that we will be judged on our works. That’s what makes me argue that I have to do works to fulfill my part of the deal. But it is not these works in and of themselves that seal the deal, Hank! Then I’d be like the Judaizers and preachings Salvation by Works!!! That’s crazy talk!

 

[Alindawyl]

If that is the case, they were not saved. No one can take them away from the Father’s mighty hand.

So then you’re saying that it IS in fact possible to make a declaration of faith and state that you are saved, but to have it not count because the declaration of faith ended up being “not genuine” at some future point. That’s progress.

Now take it one step further. How do we KNOW ahead of time who is and is not going to remain true to God? How do we know that our own declaration of faith will remain true through whatever the future may have in store for us?

We have a finite perspective. We can’t see the future so have to deal with what we’ve got at the moment. The best we can do is trust in God that we will not waver, and attempt to carry out his will to the best of our abilities. And then, upon our death, we find out whether or not our faith was true.

From our perspective, not God’s, we do not know if we are saved until we die. It is incredibly presumptuous to act as if we are among the saved before our final reward or punishment is made known to us.

 

[Alindawyl]

Alindawyl, Alindawyl, Alindawyl. When will you never learn?!? Those people were never truly saved or they wouldn’t have thrown it away!!! See how nicely that fits in OSAS? If you reject Christ, you were never in him in the first place!

OSAS is rather easy to refute once they get to the “never really saved” argument

Unfortunately, if a person is willing to ignore wide swaths of Scripture because it conflicts with their presuppositions about what Scripture should be saying, then I fully expect them to ignore anything at this point.

 

[HankZ]

Instead of apologizing for insulting me (don’t worry, I’m too thick skinned for that!), I’d still like you to address these points:

This sounds just the same as what the pharacies taught, only wrapped in a different colored paper. The message is the same. God has saved us, now let’s get to working on our salvation. They tried to save themselves by rituals of washing their hands, washing pots and pans, fasting, titheing, ect… Same as now, so many people think they can be saved through some trivial task they do, like the rosary, babtisim, communion, feeding the poor, housing the sick, attending church every Sunday, praying for certain people, asking certain people to pray for them. These things may or may not be good, the real meat of it is are you right with God. Seek ye first the kingdom of God. We need to stop doing, and make sure that God is the focus of every moment. If you value something higher then God, get rid of it. If your teaching is more important then the teacher, get rid of it. Jesus is in the business of saving people. He doesn’t ask to be paid back, in fact, you can’t pay Him back. Salvation is free for those who can accept it. Do you trust God enough to let Him be in control of your salvation, all by Himself, or do you think He needs your help? He will take you through the narrow gate if you let Him. He will be a gentleman and let you choose the wide road if you want. I believe in election, sure, but I also believe that we make the cloice to not let Him save us by trying to do it our way.

Their is a way which seems right to man, but it leads to destuction.

 

[NotWorthy]

This sounds just the same as what the pharacies taught, only wrapped in a different colored paper. The message is the same. God has saved us, now let’s get to working on our salvation. They tried to save themselves by rituals of washing their hands, washing pots and pans, fasting, titheing, ect… Same as now, so many people think they can be saved through some trivial task they do, like the rosary, babtisim, communion, feeding the poor, housing the sick, attending church every Sunday, praying for certain people, asking certain people to pray for them. These things may or may not be good, the real meat of it is are you right with God. Seek ye first the kingdom of God. We need to stop doing, and make sure that God is the focus of every moment. If you value something higher then God, get rid of it. If your teaching is more important then the teacher, get rid of it. Jesus is in the business of saving people. He doesn’t ask to be paid back, in fact, you can’t pay Him back. Salvation is free for those who can accept it. Do you trust God enough to let Him be in control of your salvation, all by Himself, or do you think He needs your help? He will take you through the narrow gate if you let Him. He will be a gentleman and let you choose the wide road if you want. I believe in election, sure, but I also believe that we make the cloice to not let Him save us by trying to do it our way.

Their is a way which seems right to man, but it leads to destuction.

Hank, if this is the way that you interpret Catholic teaching, then how can I possibly believe you can interpret Scripture? :whacky:

Who in the world claims that we do these things because God needs our help?

And, what are your thoughts on our deeds? Filthy rags or pleasing to God?

 

[HankZ]

OSAS is rather easy to refute once they get to the “never really saved” argument

Unfortunately, if a person is willing to ignore wide swaths of Scripture because it conflicts with their presuppositions about what Scripture should be saying, then I fully expect them to ignore anything at this point.

Hi,
I’m Hank,
I’m not “them.”

We agree that someone is skipping over large amounts of scripture or by chance are making a huge mistake by having an agenda instead of hearing to God speak through the bible. We each feel it is the other. I also feel that if you do not see the scriptures to mean what they say, then obviously you will find arguements to support the idea that you can lose your salvation, even when it totally conflicts with the word of God.

 

[joshua_b]

Same as now, so many people think they can be saved through some trivial task they do, like the rosary, babtisim, communion, feeding the poor, housing the sick, attending church every Sunday, praying for certain people, asking certain people to pray for them. These things may or may not be good, So some of the commandments Jesus gave us are trivial ? Which of Jesus’ teachings are essential, and which are trivial ? I’m glad the ancient Israelites didn’t take direct orders from God as “trivial”, because if they had decided that some elements of what God demanded at Passover were just “trivial”, they would have had some real problems.the real meat of it is are you right with God. I seriously doubt the answer is “yes” if one decides to cherry-pick from all of Jesus statements about eternal life, judgement and inheriting the Kingdom of God the ones that they feel best about, and discard the rest as “trivial tasks”.Seek ye first the kingdom of God. We need to stop doing, and make sure that God is the focus of every moment. If God is the focus of every moment, we will not stop doing, but rather, do more.If you value something higher then God, get rid of it. If your teaching is more important then the teacher, get rid of it. Jesus is in the business of saving people. He doesn’t ask to be paid back, in fact, you can’t pay Him back. Salvation is free for those who can accept it. It most certainly is free, but we are free to give it back once we have accepted it.Do you trust God enough to let Him be in control of your salvation, all by Himself, or do you think He needs your help?He doesn’t need our help, but Scripture clearly indicates He expects us to participate. Can you please tell me what the Holy Spirit has revealed to you about the meaning of Col1:24? He will take you through the narrow gate if you let Him. He will be a gentleman and let you choose the wide road if you want. I believe in election, sure, but I also believe that we make the cloice to not let Him save us by trying to do it our way.This is the most Catholic statement I have seen from a non-catholic in a long time.I prefer to do it the way Jesus taught us, in its entirety.

Their is a way which seems right to man, but it leads to destuction.

 

[joshua_b]

Hi,
I’m Hank,
I’m not “them.”

We agree that someone is skipping over large amounts of scripture or by chance are making a huge mistake by having an agenda instead of hearing to God speak through the bible. We each feel it is the other. I also feel that if you do not see the scriptures to mean what they say, then obviously you will find arguements to support the idea that you can lose your salvation, even when it totally conflicts with the word of God.

I believe that you are correct that you can not “lose” the gift of salvation (as testified in Scripture), but, Scripture is also very clear that we are free to give it back adn decide we don’t want it anymore.

 

[Alindawyl]

Hi,
I’m Hank,
I’m not “them.”

We agree that someone is skipping over large amounts of scripture or by chance are making a huge mistake by having an agenda instead of hearing to God speak through the bible. We each feel it is the other. I also feel that if you do not see the scriptures to mean what they say, then obviously you will find arguements to support the idea that you can lose your salvation, even when it totally conflicts with the word of God.

In this thread you have not been the only OSAS supporter. I didn’t want to leave the others out in case they felt like responding again.

There is no contradiction in Scripture. Any which is apparently present is due to a lack of understanding on our part. Therefore I look to the Church, which is guided in teaching by the Holy Spirit, to explain (not interpret but explain) why there is no contradiction. If I have any agenda, it’s placing my trust in the Church which Jesus himself established.

So far you have been the one ignoring that which you find to be contradictory. You have what you believe to be a nice, logical framework for why certain passages of Scripture support OSAS. If it made sense, you would also have an explanation for why any apparently conflicting passages are not actually in conflict. Yet instead you ignore them. The parable of the sower of seeds. 1 Corinthians 9:26-27. Romans 11:13-23, which fbl9 mentioned. John 15, which NotWorthy has mentioned more than once. And there have been others.

Exlpanations have been posted in this thread many times by many posters for why interpreting OSAS from the various passages you and other OSAS supporters have quoted is incorrect. You are free to believe that we are the ones who are in error. But if so, then you should have no trouble reconciling the passages mentioned in the previous paragraph with OSAS. If OSAS is truly the correct belief, then there should be a logical answer.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus is the one responsible to keep me in His church. Obviously He cares.

So, you think you have nothing to do with that?

I get my information that I pass along out of the bible. Most of the people I call believers do the same thing.

You are certainly not the first to keep this faith practice.

Judg 17:6
6 In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes.

Ever read the results?

I see alot of grouping. Salvation comes only to each individual as God chooses.

If this is true, how is it that some reject His purpose for themselves? How do you explain the fact that he wants all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, yet not all are?

I don’t have any religious training, teaching or other. I have a small group bible study in my home, and I do speak with other believing friends about certain passages that are sometimes difficult, but I get my information that I pass along out of the bible. Most of the people I call believers do the same thing. Think about it, if all the people who you group together are actually getting their information out of the bible, and it stays somewhat consistant to what other bible readers are getting, shouldn’t that send you a signal to study those perticular areas?

The problem here is that everything we read goes thru the filters of our own expereinces and education (or lack therof). Since what we read is influenced by our perceptions, it is biased according to our pre-suppositions.

Of coarse you could just pull the old, you can’t interpret scripture on your own, bologna.

Actually, this is a straw man. The Catholic Church is well aware that people interpret on their own all the time. This is why we see so many conflicting denominations. You can do it, just like in Israel each man did what was right in his own eyes.

Each person will have to give account for him/ herself for their own actions. The only way to avoid this, is to be covered by the blood of Jesus.

So, you think if you are covered in the blood of Jesus you will not have to give an account of yourself

Good works are useless within the salvation discussion. They play no part of it and only make you try to add to the work of Jesus, which nulifies the cross. Salvation is an all or none thing.

Can you please give the chapter and verse for this? I can’t seem to find it in my bible.

All I could find is this

Rom 2:5-11
on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

Also, can you explain how this passage does not apply to salvation?

You either have it or you don’t. Once you have it, it is forever.

It seems that you are still ignoring passages that reference otherwise. How come Jesus says he can blot names out of the book of life? Or do you also think that the book of life has nothing to do with salvation?

God makes a promise to that fact, not a deal that we have to hold up our end. God knows we can’t hold up our end, so He holds both ends all by Himself and by this, He makes us rightous in His sight.

Could you also tell me how you dispense with this passage?

2 Tim 2:10-13
10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory. 11 The saying is sure:

If we have died with him, we shall also live with him;
12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful -

for he cannot deny himself.

While you are at it, could you explain why the Apostle says “that they may also” instead of “so they will definitely”. He seems to imply that the elect “may” not obtain.

If the Lord told me I had to do this, Then He would also give me the ability to accomplish it. He will never leave nor forsake, because it is His promise.

You are right, where God guides, He provides. However, that does not mean you will still choose to do it.

 

[guanophore]

I find this in the bible to be a direct heresy. There is but ONE mediator. Jesus is the only one. You can disagree with me and it makes no difference, but that is directly against the bible. Big difference.

You said you have no training, so it is understandible that you may not know the difference between mediation, intercession, and advocacy. Keep studying!

You forsake the commandments of God for the traditions of men.

Does that mean anything?

Well, it means a couple things. It means you may be too hard hearted to learn what the Catholic Church really teaches, because you are too steeped in anti-catholicism.

It also means that you probably did not read what he posted, since it is scriptural.

It may also mean that you have decided to follow beloved Martin777 out the door, and you are finished dialoging with us, and have chosen to insult us instead. Am I warm?

What post?

Perhaps you are getting defensive, and starting to get hasty. Click on the link provided with the question, and it will take you to the post.

How does this explain that Jesus not be the only mediator between men and God?

You have misunderstood, Hank. No one here has said that. You are erroneously equating intercession and advocacy as mediation.

 

[fbl9]

from the book of the prophet Ezechiel18:24"But if the JUST man turn turn away from his JUSTICE and do iniquity according to all the abominations the wicked man uses to work,shall he live?All his justices which he have done,SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED.In the prevarication,by which he hath prevaricated and in his sin which he hath commitedt,in them HE SHALL DIE’’

please Hank try address this post in regards to not being able to lose salvation…

 

[guanophore]

(Eph 2:1) Was Paul not an Appostle? Do you reject that which has been inspired by God. All scripture has been inspired by God which includes dead in your trespasses.

Of course he is an Apostle, and of course we were dead in our trespasses. The word “dead” does not mean what you are trying to make it mean to support your Calvanistic contamination. I know you probably don’t realize that is what it is, but Calvin originated it.

There is none rightous, no, not one. For all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Do you need more? It is not my perseption, that could be questioned, but the word of God, that is never wrong.

Yes, I need more. I need to know what the Apostles meant by that when they wrote it, because it seems to me that “all” does not mean “all” in this passage. It is your perception, Hank, we cannot read scripture, or anything else, without it going thru our perceptions.

Romans 3:23;

For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
That is pretty much being scriptural.

Let’s try to save that one for later, can we? I think you already have five or six disputes posted on here.

No one could be saved and reject it.

Do we agree that God desires all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth?

Do we agree that some are able to reject God’s purpose for themselves? (Refuse salvation).

On what basis do you find that saved persons cannot reject it? What do you think it means to be “cut off, and thrown into the fire”?

Unless scripture is conflicting with itself, those who the Father chooses shall be saved. Jesus said not one that my Father has given me, will be lost.

No, scripture does not conflict. Just your understanding of it.

No, they are not lost. They have to deliberately jump out of his hand, and run off.

 I see nothing that can refute OSAS.

If this is the case, then one has to wonder, why are you here on CAF?

God is too strong and smart for someone to over power Him or out wit Him. OSAS is very trustable.

God allows us choice. He created us in His own image and likeness. This means we choose to be with Him, or not.
I agree that He is completely trustworthy

Look up the definition of mediator and those words you claim do not mean mediator. That is why I say it is heresy. God gave us Jesus as our mediator, no one else can go between us and God. No one else is worthy, not Paul, Peter, Mary, Ellijah or any one else. Living people can pray for another, but that is not interceding. That is asking God to help someone, not representing their case before God.

Try to slow down, Hank. No one here has said that anyone mediates between God and man except Christ. You are confusing intercession and advocation with mediation.
You are right, the words we claim to NOT mean mediator. It is only you that are saying they do!

We should wait on the topic of interceding also, since that seems to be another area where you are suffering misunderstanding. Let’s try to go one at a time.

1 Timothy 2:5; Jesus is the mediator between man and God.
1 John 2:1; If anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father; Christ Jesus the Rightous.

1 Peter; the whole chapter is talking about how we have salvation through Christ. When he is addressing believers, he never mentions salvation being lost. Not until chapter 2 when the influence of false teachings come in, does he say anything about hell.
Paul speaks of salvation that has been obtained. If you haven’t already seen numerous verses to show that, I am willing to look some up for you. Do you want to know them or argue?

We know them well, Hank. We have this discussion with misguided OSAS folks often. We do not separate them from the other verses that say different things.

please Hank try address this post in regards to not being able to lose salvation…

Yes, I think it would help a lot to focus on one thing at a time.

 

[guanophore]

Interesting point, the bible as a whole; outside the 4 gospels, how many times is Mary spoken of?

This an inappropriate standard. Would you say that, since Jesus only claimed once to give His life for the world, that it had lesser value than other things that were said more often?

1 Peter; the whole chapter is talking about how we have salvation through Christ. When he is addressing believers, he never mentions salvation being lost. Not until chapter 2 when the influence of false teachings come in, does he say anything about hell.

This is apparently what you have been taught to believe, but there are plenty of scriptures that are addressed to believers that speak of getting cut off, thrown into the fire and burned, blotted out of the book of life, thrown outside into utter darkness, etc, etc. One must take all these scriptures together to understand the teaching. Furthermore, failing to read them in the light of those who wrote them, one is likely to miss the mark.

I mean in the bible anywhere other then Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I do not find her in revelation.

It is amazing what one cannot “see” when one has one’s anti-Catholic blinders on!

This sounds just the same as what the pharacies taught, only wrapped in a different colored paper. The message is the same.

Well, don’t forget that Jesus instructed His disciples to “do all that they command you, for they sit on the seat of Moses”. If He thought it was destructive He would not have instructed them to follow it, would He?

God has saved us, now let’s get to working on our salvation.

I don’t think that the message is the same. There is a big difference between “working on” and “working out”. We are called to produce works that befit repentance, and to live life worthy of the calling to which we have been called. This is done by grace, God’s spirit, working in us to will and to do His good pleasure.

There were saved people who followed all the rituals. It is not ritual that is a problem, as the rituals were given by God. It is approaching them without faith that is a problem

They tried to save themselves by rituals of washing their hands, washing pots and pans, fasting, titheing, ect… Same as now, so many people think they can be saved through some trivial task they do, like the rosary, babtisim, communion, feeding the poor, housing the sick, attending church every Sunday, praying for certain people, asking certain people to pray for them. These things may or may not be good, the real meat of it is are you right with God. Seek ye first the kingdom of God.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

 

[adrift]

me·di·a·tor

me·di·a·tor [mdee àytər]
(plural me·di·a·tors)
n

1. somebody helping end dispute: somebody who works with both sides in a dispute in an attempt to help them to reach an agreement
2. substance acting as medium: a substance that acts as a medium in transferring something from one place to another in the body.

Your source? Do you really believe that this is a definition of how Jesus is our mediator? It is at best a strange definition. My definition was from Webster as you would see if you followed the link.

It is simple. Jesus is our one mediator to the Father but where does it say that we must go directly to Jesus that we cannot have intercessors to Jesus? Paul asked others to pray for him. If you are going to condemn for asking Mary to pray for us you must also condemn Paul as well. Only those who do not believe what Jesus said “God is the Father of the living not the dead” cannot understand the Communion of Saints. We are all one body and show love for one another by prayer for one another and this does not stop at the grave.

 

[twb1621]

I disagree that there is only one meaning. God gave His law to the Jews through Moses. That does not mean we as non-Jews(speaking for myself) cannot gain much fruitful and wonderful things from the first 5 books. The entire Old Testament was given to the Jews. If we are to take it all in the same way, then people would be stoning their children, instead of understanding the very seriousness of sin.

Do you think it was unnecessary for all the theologians and scholars who gathered so many times over the centuries (and still do) to put so much time and effort into translating AND interpreting the Bible when you can do it without them? Do you understand why it takes groups of specialists in multiple fields of study and research to interpret scripture? And you believe you can figure it out and understand it yourself or in your private group. Hank, think about that please.

 

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by HankZ
I don’t believe we are on the same page, in the same chapter, or reading the same book for that matter, for you to ask this. Jesus is the one responsible to keep me in His church. Obviously He cares.
You are the one who asked
“Does it matter which church you attend?” I responded “Are you saying Jesus doesn’t care if we remain in His Church, His Body?”
How is that not on the same page?

I see alot of grouping. Salvation comes only to each individual as God chooses. I keep getting thrown into this group or that, I don’t have any religious training, teaching or other. This post was directed to individuals, Hank. Not groups. I have a small group bible study in my home, and I do speak with other believing friends about certain passages that are sometimes difficult, but I get my information that I pass along out of the bible. Most of the people I call believers do the same thing. Think about it, if all the people who you group together there you go again are actually getting their information out of the bible, and it stays somewhat consistant ? to what other bible readers are getting, shouldn’t that send you a signal to study those perticular areas? You are dealing with the Word of God, not a novel. Only if those know what and how they are to be interpreted AND THEY DON"T CONFLICT WITH OTHER SCRIPTURE AS YOURS Is THE WAY YOU ARE READING IT. Why do you think there are over 60000 denominations? Of coarse you could just pull the old, you can’t interpret scripture on your own, bologna. This grouping thing, (.!?) is not the way the judgement will be. Each person will have to give account for him/ herself for their own actions. absolutely! The only way to avoid this, is to be covered by the blood of Jesus. AVOID? you can’t avoid judgement. Good works are useless within the salvation discussion. Although your intentions may be good, If you are teaching other people this you are misguiding them as well. They play no part of it and only make you try to add to the work of Jesus, which nulifies the cross. It is His teachings we are suppose to follow which can not under any circumstances nullify His work of salvation. Thats way off to think. Salvation is an all or none thing. You either have it or you don’t. Once you have it, it is forever. God makes a promise to that fact, not a deal that we have to hold up our end. God knows we can’t hold up our end, so He holds both ends all by Himself and by this, He makes us rightous in His sight. It is called a covenant and our end of it includes works and the commandments so don’t think we are “excussed” because we are not capable. He doesn’t expect perfection but He certainly holds us to be responsible and live by His Teachings. Why do you think the Apostles lived the life style they did? I am far from perfect, but that matters nothing. I don’t think I could change an adult diaper, muchless put a soiled man in my car to take him to a hospital, to be honest. Am I going to go to hell after He has saved me, because I won’t do that. I wouldn’t even repent of this, because I would not find it to be a sin. If the Lord told me I had to do this, Then He would also give me the ability to accomplish it. He will never leave nor forsake, because it is His promise.

God’s word does not follow what each individual interprets it as. He spoke the Word and He had one meaning. And you are misunderstanding and ignoring much of it.

---

 

[fbl9]

Hank Z when on the occasions you do fail (sin) do you repent (ask forgiveness) of your failure(sin)?Why?

 

[HankZ]

Hank Z when on the occasions you do fail (sin) do you repent (ask forgiveness) of your failure(sin)?Why?

Honestly, That is between me and God. No one else needs to know. This has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

[CWBetts]

Actually it does…if you acceot OSAS, why bother asking for forgiveness?