The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

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Fran65 said:
Which is exactly why Catholics try to do our best according to the teachings of our Church.

However, the question of saved or not is one for God. We cannot presume to judge for ourselves. We only know that we will be judged and that Jesus, His mother Mary and the communion of the saints will be our intercessors and advocates.
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Their is but one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. Please don’t throw in heretical statements like this one.
 
HankZ said:
Their is but one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. Please don’t throw in heretical statements like this one.
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Charity please. We arent calling your teaching herecies. Please extend us the same courtesy
 
twb1621 said:
Are you saying Jesus doesn’t care if we remain in His Church, His Body?

I don’t believe we are on the same page, in the same chapter, or reading the same book for that matter, for you to ask this. Jesus is the one responsible to keep me in His church. Obviously He cares.
twb1621;4564528:
I sincerely ask you based on your commentary to respond with a rebuttal to those parts of that post 293, that you refute. I would be very interested to know your thoughts more deeply in that. I have copied it below;
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Let me say this regarding the philosophy of believing Faith alone is all that is needed and faith is responsible for our good works through grace. Faith is without doubt the salvation of our Lord but good works are our responsibility to perform as He performed and as He requires us to perform with all those who sought His word. If Faith were in fact responsible for our good works most of us would be doing much more than we do, I promise you that and it would be far from comfortable. Do you perform good works to the potential you could or would you have to explain why at times you chose not to be there for someone in distress or even just to be helpful in some not so important way. When you perform a merciful work do you tell others so they know how Christian you are? But not everyone who believes to be “Born Again” follows the same degree of effort in works. Some very little if at all, but merely judge others. For a person to proclaim they live up to their full potential of performing works for the love of others in the love of God is self-righteous and that can be very detrimental. Why? Because no one knows their full potential until they are tested by God and that is not a one-time thing. No one knows what those tests will be or if they will be able to pass those tests when the time comes. How many of us can embrace a leper or other mortally sick and contagious person, kiss them on their wounds, give up all they own and all the income they have, placing their very survival in God as people like Saint Francis did. How many people would (with no other solution) be able to pick a man up lying on the side walk barely able to walk on his own, soiled in his own vomit, excrement and/or urine with a stench you could smell 10 feet away, place him in your car on your cloth seat knowing it would absorb the soil with the odor permeating throughout the vehicle interior but ignoring the materialistic aspect just to take him to a hospital or shelter. Or would you rather give the man money for him to make it for care or shelter on his own? How many could leave their families for 6 months or a year to go to some foreign place to perform works of mercy for those devastated by drought, famine, or contagious diseases. How many of us raise our children with the responsibility and care God expects of us and do we realize what is expected of us? If one lives this kind of life, God bless and guide him or her in their pilgrimage. The fact is we don’t know our potential or limitations until those tests come up but what we do or should know, Satan is the father of Lies and to think we couldn’t fall to his deceit is foolish, he is very good at what he does and strives inexhaustibly to take each of us down the wrong path. It is our free will whether we search for the truth in Him, to know Him and to develop in the love and devotion He deserves from each of us. And it is our free will to choose how far we can go in our good works but we never can know if we are living up to our full potential for the love of God until we meet Him in our judgment. That is what all the teaching is about regarding Faith AND works. Oh and by the way, Grace builds in us as love does and LOVE gives us the strength to do some things we wouldn’t do otherwise.

I see alot of grouping. Salvation comes only to each individual as God chooses. I keep getting thrown into this group or that, I don’t have any religious training, teaching or other. I have a small group bible study in my home, and I do speak with other believing friends about certain passages that are sometimes difficult, but I get my information that I pass along out of the bible. Most of the people I call believers do the same thing. Think about it, if all the people who you group together are actually getting their information out of the bible, and it stays somewhat consistant to what other bible readers are getting, shouldn’t that send you a signal to study those perticular areas? Of coarse you could just pull the old, you can’t interpret scripture on your own, bologna. This grouping thing, is not the way the judgement will be. Each person will have to give account for him/ herself for their own actions. The only way to avoid this, is to be covered by the blood of Jesus. Good works are useless within the salvation discussion. They play no part of it and only make you try to add to the work of Jesus, which nulifies the cross. Salvation is an all or none thing. You either have it or you don’t. Once you have it, it is forever. God makes a promise to that fact, not a deal that we have to hold up our end. God knows we can’t hold up our end, so He holds both ends all by Himself and by this, He makes us rightous in His sight.

I am far from perfect, but that matters nothing. I don’t think I could change an adult diaper, muchless put a soiled man in my car to take him to a hospital, to be honest. Am I going to go to hell after He has saved me, because I won’t do that. I wouldn’t even repent of this, because I would not find it to be a sin. If the Lord told me I had to do this, Then He would also give me the ability to accomplish it. He will never leave nor forsake, because it is His promise.
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CWBetts said:
Charity please. We arent calling your teaching herecies. Please extend us the same courtesy
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I find this in the bible to be a direct heresy. There is but ONE mediator. Jesus is the only one. You can disagree with me and it makes no difference, but that is directly against the bible. Big difference.
 
HankZ said:
You forsake the commandments of God for the traditions of men.

Does that mean anything?
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Who will be saved?
Jesus gives the answer, and so does Paul. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)
“(God) who will render to each one according to his deeds.” (Romans 2:6)
“For we must appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:10)
How will one be saved?
“And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.”(Matthew 10:22)
“And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Mark 13:13)
“But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13)
“But Jesus said to him, ‘No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God’.” (Luke 9:62)
So, in order to be saved we must keep working at it. It is not a one-shot deal. In Matthew 25, we find that Jesus is advising us to be always ready for His coming. Some say that once they have accepted Christ as their personal Savior they can lead any kind of life they want - good or bad - and they are still saved. Here is what the Letter to the Hebrews says: “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4-6)
What is involved in being saved?
  1. According to the Word of God, to be saved does not involve just one element like “accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior.” To be saved involves a process.
  2. According to the Word of God, there are five elements involved in being saved:
    a. Repent of one’s sins.
    b. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    c. Be baptized.
    d. Receive the Holy Spirit.
    e. Do the Will of the Father - a lifelong process. “… (they) said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’ Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” (Acts 2:37-38)
    Peter left out belief in Jesus Christ since he was talking to people who already believed in Jesus Christ. That day, the day the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles and Mary, about 3000 were baptized. Jesus, in Matthew 7:21, says that he who does the Will of His Father will enter the kingdom of heaven.
    The Catholic Church teaches that a person is saved if there is no mortal sin on their soul at the time of their death. The Church takes into account:
  3. What the Word of God says, and
  4. The fact that God has given us the gift of Free Will by which we can choose good or evil at any time during our life - we are free, we are never locked into being “saved” or “unsaved” - we work out our salvation with fear and trembling [Philippians 2:12], and hope we will endure to the end [Matthew 10:22].
 
twb1621 said:
Who will be saved?
Jesus gives the answer, and so does Paul. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)
“(God) who will render to each one according to his deeds.” (Romans 2:6)
“For we must appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:10)
How will one be saved?
“And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.”(Matthew 10:22)
“And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Mark 13:13)
“But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13)
“But Jesus said to him, ‘No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God’.” (Luke 9:62)
So, in order to be saved we must keep working at it. It is not a one-shot deal. In Matthew 25, we find that Jesus is advising us to be always ready for His coming. Some say that once they have accepted Christ as their personal Savior they can lead any kind of life they want - good or bad - and they are still saved. Here is what the Letter to the Hebrews says: “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4-6)
What is involved in being saved?
  1. According to the Word of God, to be saved does not involve just one element like “accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior.” To be saved involves a process.
  2. According to the Word of God, there are five elements involved in being saved:
    a. Repent of one’s sins.
    b. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    c. Be baptized.
    d. Receive the Holy Spirit.
    e. Do the Will of the Father - a lifelong process. “… (they) said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’ Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” (Acts 2:37-38)
    Peter left out belief in Jesus Christ since he was talking to people who already believed in Jesus Christ. That day, the day the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles and Mary, about 3000 were baptized. Jesus, in Matthew 7:21, says that he who does the Will of His Father will enter the kingdom of heaven.
    The Catholic Church teaches that a person is saved if there is no mortal sin on their soul at the time of their death. The Church takes into account:
  3. What the Word of God says, and
  4. The fact that God has given us the gift of Free Will by which we can choose good or evil at any time during our life - we are free, we are never locked into being “saved” or “unsaved” - we work out our salvation with fear and trembling [Philippians 2:12], and hope we will endure to the end [Matthew 10:22].
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How does this explain that Jesus not be the only mediator between men and God?
 
HankZ said:
How does this explain that Jesus not be the only mediator between men and God?
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I am trying to stay with one issue at a time. Changing issue between is not going to help anything in understanding differences.
 
HankZ said:
How does this explain that Jesus not be the only mediator between men and God?
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Since that is not the teaching of the Catholic Church maybe you can entertain the idea that you have a flawed understanding of Catholic teachings?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
**480 **Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.
 
HankZ said:
I don’t believe we are on the same page, in the same chapter, or reading the same book for that matter, for you to ask this. Jesus is the one responsible to keep me in His church. Obviously He cares.

This grouping thing, is not the way the judgement will be. Yes, and Jesus says very plainly as recorded in Scripture how judgement will be.

Each person will have to give account for him/ herself for their own actions.
That is what Jesus tells us.

The only way to avoid this, is to be covered by the blood of Jesus.
Where in Scripture does it say anyone can avoid judgement ?

Good works are useless within the salvation discussion.
Then why does Jesus tell us that we will be judged ? And, more importantly, what criteria will we be judged by? My Bible doesn’t tell me anywhere that I will be judged based on my “personal relationship with Jesus”.
They play no part of it and only make you try to add to the work of Jesus, which nulifies the cross.
Would you care to reconcile this with Colossians 1:24 ? “Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.”
Salvation is an all or none thing. You either have it or you don’t.
Pretty much.
Once you have it, it is forever. God makes a promise to that fact, not a deal that we have to hold up our end.
Then why is it St Paul did not believe it, Jesus did not teach it, and it is not found as a teaching of Christianity for the first 1500 years of it’s existence?
.
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HankZ said:
Dead in your trespasses is just that. You are dead in sin and want to sin, and want nothing else but to sin. You do have free will prior to being saved and can choose.
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Well, you can’t have it both ways, Hank. If one is free to choose, then one is not “dead” is one, since dead people can not choose. 🤷

Death is the consequence of living in sin, and persons who are dead in sin will inherit the consequence of their state. Adam and Eve also “died” when they ate the apple, but as we see, they were still capable of making decisions, creating progeny, etc. They were in a state of spiritual separation from the fellowship for which God created them.

Furthermore, your perception of the state of mankind prior to regeneration is contrary to the Apostolic Teaching. If we are unable to desire the good, and only wanted to sin continually, we would never be able to choose Christ.
HankZ said:
Code: 
 Unfortunately, we have always choosen to reject God and continue in sin.
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This is not consistent with the scriptural record either. Not everyone chooses to reject God.
HankZ said:
That has been a choice we have made each and every time. Now what is different, is God has choosen this time. He has not only choosen, but He is faithful to carry it to completion.
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This is not different. God has always chosen. He chose to create Adam and Eve. He chose to create and save Abraham, etc, He has always chosen, and has always been faithful, even when we are not.
HankZ said:
That is why it is said, for by grace you have been saved, and not of works, least any man may boast. No one can brag about their salvation, good works or anything else.
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While I agree with this, it has nothing to do with how people have been saved. Abraham was also saved by grace, through faith, as was everyone listed in the chapt. of Heb 11. God’s plan of salvation has not changed.
HankZ said:
Now about being ‘forced’ to love God. Who, after recieving this much grace and love from the almighty could ever say they choose not too? How rediculous of a statement.
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No, it is not. People do receive His grace, and understand His sacrifice, then subsequently turn their back on Him. When it says that we are made in the image and likeness of God, it means that we are created by love, for love. Love sets free, it does not compel. God does not coerce us into being with him. This is posession, not love.
 
twb1621 said:
post 354
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My response is post #378.

I really have a hard time focusing on the really long post. I mean no disrespect, I just don’t get everything that is in them. I only can get bits and pieces of them. That is why I ussually skip the really long ones. I know it isn’t right.
 
HankZ said:
I don’t believe we are on the same page, in the same chapter, or reading the same book for that matter, for you to ask this. Jesus is the one responsible to keep me in His church. Obviously He cares.
You are the one who asked
“Does it matter which church you attend?” I responded “Are you saying Jesus doesn’t care if we remain in His Church, His Body?”

How is that not on the same page?

I see alot of grouping. Salvation comes only to each individual as God chooses. I keep getting thrown into this group or that, I don’t have any religious training, teaching or other. This post was directed to individuals, Hank. Not groups. I have a small group bible study in my home, and I do speak with other believing friends about certain passages that are sometimes difficult, but I get my information that I pass along out of the bible. Most of the people I call believers do the same thing. Think about it, if all the people who you group together there you go again are actually getting their information out of the bible, and it stays somewhat consistant ? to what other bible readers are getting, shouldn’t that send you a signal to study those perticular areas? You are dealing with the Word of God, not a novel. Only if those know what and how they are to be interpreted AND THEY DON"T CONFLICT WITH OTHER SCRIPTURE AS YOURS Is THE WAY YOU ARE READING IT. Of coarse you could just pull the old, you can’t interpret scripture on your own, bologna. This grouping thing, (.!?) is not the way the judgement will be. Each person will have to give account for him/ herself for their own actions. absolutely! The only way to avoid this, is to be covered by the blood of Jesus. AVOID? you can’t avoid judgement. Good works are useless within the salvation discussion. Although your intentions may be good, If you are teaching other people this you are misguiding them as well. They play no part of it and only make you try to add to the work of Jesus, which nulifies the cross. It is His teachings we are suppose to follow which can not under any circumstances nullify His work of salvation. Thats way off to think. Salvation is an all or none thing. You either have it or you don’t. Once you have it, it is forever. Read the post #384 God makes a promise to that fact, not a deal that we have to hold up our end. God knows we can’t hold up our end, so He holds both ends all by Himself and by this, He makes us rightous in His sight. It is called a covenant and our end of it includes works and the commandments so don’t think we are “excussed” because we are not capable. He doesn’t expect perfection but He certainly holds us to be responsible and live by His Teachings. Why do you think the Apostles lived the life style they did?
I am far from perfect, but that matters nothing. I don’t think I could change an adult diaper, muchless put a soiled man in my car to take him to a hospital, to be honest. Am I going to go to hell after He has saved me, because I won’t do that. I wouldn’t even repent of this, because I would not find it to be a sin. If the Lord told me I had to do this, Then He would also give me the ability to accomplish it. He will never leave nor forsake, because it is His promise.
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God’s word does not follow what each individual interprets it as. He spoke the Word and He had one meaning. And you are misunderstanding and ignoring much of it.
 
HankZ said:
I find this in the bible to be a direct heresy. There is but ONE mediator. Jesus is the only one. You can disagree with me and it makes no difference, but that is directly against the bible. Big difference.
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Communion of the saints is in there my friend. And Mary;s special place in the Church is clearly established by Jesus at the Crucifixion. Remember context. Not a verse here, a verse there, but the Bible as a whole.
 
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