The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[NotWorthy]

Where do you find mortal and non-mortal sins in the bible. All sin separates us from God, so wouldn’t all sin be mortal?

So, a Saved Person must still refrain from sinning or else be separated by God? Isn’t that similar to what you’ve been accusing us Catholics of preaching? Salvation by works?

 

[Alindawyl]

And I think it probably depends on how you read it, but I see it like this–He says life cannot separate us from the love of God, and life is what happens moment by moment that can cause us to stumble and fall. So I see it covering everything about the future. Also that verse somebody else brought up in Romans 5, where it says that Christians rejoice in their tribulations…If tribulation can (and it can) lead me to fail and sin and maybe lose my salvation, then it is absurd to say we rejoice in tribulations. Yet that is what Paul says. So those two passages plus a ton of others make a solid case for the doctrine that God the Father will never disown his children no matter what.

Well of course God will never disown us. The only one who can disown us is us. Lucifer had to use temptation and lies to trick Adam and Eve into turning from God of their own free will. He couldn’t MAKE them do it, and even after they were kicked out of Eden, God never stopped loving them.

Likewise, life on its own cannot separate us from the love of God. How we choose to react to life is a different matter. CWBetts brought up the example of Judas. Judas initially had faith in Jesus, and when things were going well did not question his faith. But once the tribulations began, once Jesus started preaching that “crazy stuff” about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, once most of Jesus’ followers left him because of that, once the authorities were looking for Jesus and his disciples, then and only then did Judas betray Jesus.

Tribulation certainly did give Judas the opportunity for betrayal. It also gave Peter the opportunity to deny Jesus three times in rather short succession. But the tribulation itself was not the cause of their sin. Their choices were. The love of God was always extended to both Peter and Judas. Judas in his pride chose to kill himself rather than face the consequences of his actions.

God never stopped loving either of them. He never stops loving us, and always has his hand extended to us no matter what we do. But it’s up to us to take hold of his hand, and to continue holding it tightly. Peter let go, but then begged God to hold hands again. Judas let go and did not. But in neither case did God let go. It is always us.

All of the apostles except for one eventually met a martryr’s death. In the end, the same Peter who had denied Jesus three times willingly gave up his life rather than deny him again. Holding hands with God mattered so much to him that his life was irrelevant in comparison. And THAT is why we are to rejoice in tribulation. It gives us a chance to prove exactly how much we love God. Is our faith strong enough to stand by him no matter the cost to ourselves, even if it results in our suffering or death? Or do we take the easy way out and turn from him for a bit of short-term relief?

Faith can be lost, but while we still live it can also be regained. Salvation once granted can never be lost. But it is a mistake to believe that salvation happens while we live and breathe, rather than at the end of our life. To equate salvation with a mere declaration of faith flies in the face of reason and requires ignoring a lot of Scripture. We are given the promise of salvation, but only if we follow the will of God. By refusing to submit to God’s will, we also refuse his offer of salvation.

This is why it flies in the face of reason. A person makes a public declaration of their faith in Jesus and lives the life of a good Christian for many years. At some later point in their life they deny their faith for whatever excuse seems convenient at the time (spouse dies due to horrible suffering illness, child turns to a life of crime, etc). They remain separated from Jesus at their death. How in the world can you say that person is still guaranteed salvation based on a past declaration of faith that they no longer accept?

 

[CWBetts]

I was hoping someone more eloquent would chime in!! I do my best, but it is refreshing when someone who REALLY knows their stuff chimes in!

 

[NotWorthy]

Wow. I had forgotten that your statement is the standard answer from Catholics, and it is so contrary to God’s Word.
First, “born of water” was a common term in Jesus’ day for PHYSICAL birth (the watery womb and birth process) SO, here’s what Jesus was saying: Nicodemus (the man He was talking to) thought Jesus meant he had to be born physically again! So Jesus says, No, you have to born physically AND spiritually–that is, of water (physical birth) AND of the Spirit (the New Birth-Born Again) NO WONDER Catholics don’t understand what Jesus meant!

The more I ponder this, the more it makes me laugh. So I wanted to return to it to find out more.

When you first had this explained to you, did you believe it because:
a) it was a fitting rebuttal to all these “John 3 = Baptism” people and you wanted to believe it?
or
b) the author went on and gave adequate examples to prove that this was a common term (Water Birth).

If it was an academic reason, where did you find this as a common term in Jesus’ day? Is it said anywhere else in Scripture? Josephus’ writings? Philo’s?

I only see the terms, “Born of a woman” or “Born of the Flesh” (and I’m sure there are others), but I don’t recall anywhere else in Scripture the term “Born of Water” other than John chapter 3.

 

[fbl9]

I was trying to show fbl9 how silly it looks to rant like that.
Sorry fbl9, I will not do that again.

apology accepted and i offer you an apology for my “temper tantrum”.

 

[fbl9]

here’s another consistency from the book of the prophet Ezechiel18:24"But if the JUST man turn turn away from his JUSTICE and do iniquity according to all the abominations the wicked man uses to work,shall he live?All his justices which he have done,SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED.In the prevarication,by which he hath prevaricated and in his sin which he hath commitedt,in them HE SHALL DIE’’

how does this fit in with osas?or from St.Paul’s letter to the Romans"to all God’s beloeve called to be saints:…“from the same letter of St.Paul11:20-21(13-22 is the whole)20”…be not high minded,but FEAR21 For if God has not spared the natural branches perhaps He may not spare thee either."

 

[guanophore]

I really understand what you are saying. Please, think about why Paul would say that salvation is “NOT BY WORKS.”
Scripture does not conflict. This is one of those areas where it may seem to conflict, but if realize that salvation is a gift from God and there is nothing you can do to earn it, it makes sense.

Yes. We access the grace that saves through faith. IT is a faith that works.

Gal 5:6
the only thing that counts is faith working through love.

We are not better then someone else, so God saves us, on the contrary, we are as worthless as everyone else and deserving of Hell, and in His mercy, God offers salvation to us through His son for His own purpose and glory. Nothing we do will ever be good enough, unless He removes the barrier that separates us from Him.

And after that barrier is removed through the free gift of His grace, He places His spirit within us, and that spirit works.

“Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 **for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” **Phil 2:12-13

Phil 2:12-13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

The grace that saves us is not separated from the Grace that works in us, producing the fruit of salvation. Those vines that do not produce fruit will be cut off, and thrown into the fire. Why? Because the grace is not at work in them to will and to do HIs good pleasure.

You have BEEN SAVED by grace through faith.
He made other statements of his salvation too.

Yes, this is Catholic. We believe that we are saved at once when we are baptized into Christ. The statements in Scripture are past, present, and future tense. Think of it this way. There is a river of life. When we are made members of Christ’s body we enter that river. We can remain in that river until we reach the end. Or, as often happens, people get out of the river and walk away. This does not change the river. Salvation is still there, and available. some people return to the river and get back into it. Some people decide not to come back. OUtside of that river, there is no salvation. Just because the person entered it, and obtained salvation, does not mean that the same person cannot get out and walk away.

It does not matter who created sin. The issue is that since you are a created thing, you cannot separate you from God if He has saved you.

That is not what the passage says, Hank. It says no created thing can separate us from the love of God. Yet it is the Love of God that creates us in free will, and with the ability to walk away from Him.

Mark 10:17-22

As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honor your father and mother.’” 20 He said to him, “Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth.” 21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions."

It is clear that Jesus loved the man, yet He allowed Him to walk away. Do you think Jesus stopped loving Him, because He walked away?

I agree that scripture cannot be stretched like play-doh. Could you explain what Paul means by we are saved by Grace through faith and not by works?

What is there to “explain”? This verse was written by a Catholic, for and about Catholics. It is consistent with the teaching of the Catholic faith that there is no way we can merit our justification before God.

If you can’t explain why we are told salvation is a free gift without stretching the truth, I understand.

Part of the problem is how salvaton is defined. The Apostles taught a different conception than what was given to you by the Reformers.

However, God offers many gifts that have conditions. For example, He provided for the Hebrews to be spared by the Angel of Death He sent to Egypt, but they had to slay the Passover Lamb, eat it as directed, and put the blood on the lintel of the door. Their obedience to His direction did not mean that the gift was not free.

I got a coupon in the paper that said there would be a free door prize for the first 100 people entering the store at 6 am. I did not want to get up that early, so I did not get the free gift.

You say, “We work out what God put IN” - but that, again, fails your own criterion, in that it is not Scripturally evident, but merely your own conjecture. Dare I say it, your faith seems to be based on the Tradition of “Martin777” and not Scripture.

No, I think he is right. It is scripturally evident that we do work out what God has placed within us. It is not possible to obtain salvation by working “for” it. We can only walk in the works that He created before the foundation of the world, that we should walk in them. This we do by grace, which he has shed abroad in our hearts through faith.

 

[HankZ]

So, a Saved Person must still refrain from sinning or else be separated by God? Isn’t that similar to what you’ve been accusing us Catholics of preaching? Salvation by works?

A saved person can still sin and be separated from God’s will, but not lose their salvation, that comes freely as a gift from God. To continue in sin after being set free from sin may be foolish, but is possible,yet remain saved. Remember, nothing can separate that which God has joined.

 

[guanophore]

The problem with accepting this idea that Jesus is not enough, is that if Jesus is not enough, who is greater then He to help you if Jesus can’t?

It may seem that way to you, Hank, if your Jesus is as thin as a poster. However, Jesus did not separate the grace that saves us from the fruit that is produced by it. Catholics undertand that Jesus is more than enough. We just don’t have a superficial Jesus.

“Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. 4 Whoever says, “I have come to know him,” but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; 5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 whoever says, “I abide in him,” ought to walk just as he walked.” 1 John 2:3-6

Saving faith is obedient faith. Faith that works.

It’s about not accepting a false teaching that you NEED to do good deeds for your salvation.

Using the passage above, can you explain to me how obedience to His commands is separated from salvation?

And let’s look at the famous “faith alone” passage of many who wish to exclude v. 10:

Eph 2:8-11
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

Using verse 10, can you show me how our way of life in obedience to His works in us is somehow separated from the grace by which we are saved through faith?

I’m going back to what I said in a post in the first thread on this topic, Good deeds are wonderful and please God. The question is who can do good deeds? Only those who are saved. I have been told that you agree with that, yet it is repeated that faith and works are combined in order to attain and/or keep salvation. That is preaching a false Christ.

No, it is teaching the whole gospel. James is also clear that saving faith is faith that works. Saving faith that is empty of works is dead.

Christ alone is able to save, Paul stresses that it is “not by works.” It’s kind of an all or none teaching that Jesus preached when He said, “I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, no man gets to the Father but through me.” Not even a little bit, can good deeds do anything for salvation.

You say this because you have a different concept of salvation. You seem to think it is something that happens once in time, for all time. This is not the Apostolic Teaching on salvation. The Apostles taught that we work out our salvaton, and that we obtain it when we leave this earth. A saved person demonstrates the obedience of faith. this obedience demonstrates faith working through love.

If you were discussing that if you show no good deeds, then you haven’t been saved, we would have a completely different argument and I would agree in part. I believe that works are something you will do after you have been saved.

This is because you have a narrow understanding of “saved”. You seem to think that the initial justification described by Paul is the sum total of the story.

I actually think “works” are very important in the life of a Christian. In this discussion I am saying that good works are useless for salvation, keeping or earning. It is hard to accept that you can’t help.

Mostly because accepting such a thing would be contrary to the Apostolic teaching, and therefore, a “different gospel”.

I believe this is partly why the road to salvation is narrow. People feel they must "Do" something to be saved.

I think it is because we must entirely trust ourselves to God, and this is very hard for people.

Claify this please, are you or are you not saying that in order to get to heaven you must do good deeds? I was not aware that deals were made with God. What could you have that God would find worthy of making a deal with you? What could you offer for your side of this deal?

Obedience is not a “deal”. We owe Him our lives, everything. When we do what He commands, we are only doing our duty. We must be perfect to get to heaven.

“Now that you have purified your souls by your obedience to the truth so that you have genuine mutual love, love one another deeply from the heart. 23 You have been born anew, not of perishable but of imperishable seed, through the living and enduring word of God.” 1 Peter 1:22-24

How does the Apostle say their souls were purified? Does he separate deep love of others from the grace that produced the obedience? No, this passage is also about working out what is working within. We obey because we are born anew. We love because we have been sanctified by grace. Obedience and love are not separated from the grace that produces them.

 

[guanophore]

OSAS is not such a recent theology.

For those of us who have received a 2000 year old faith, 500 years is recent.

I read it through out scripture. I was once like you and refused to see it, but eventually I accepted this truth and God blessed me by allowing more scripture to be seen.

I do agree that those who accept it can then “read” it in scripture. It reminds me of those who are taken by the JW. Once they accept that there is no Trinity, and Jesus is not God, they can “see” the scripture accordingly. We all read the scripture according to our preconceived notions.

= God does not delite in sending people to hell, but He has not chosen to save everyone.

If this is true, then how come some people are able to reject His purpose for themselves?

God is not Catholic,

No, just the Church He founded.

The bible says that your good deeds are like filthy rags. Without Christ, you can do nothing good.

Actually, the writer of that passage about filthy rags is making reference to those who have fallen into sin. Of course, without Christ we can do nothing good. Yet, when we are in Christ, we will demonstrate the good works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. These works are not separated from the grace that produces them.

You are confused about Jesus teachings and mans traditions, for instance Jesus never prayed to His mother. He prayed only to His Father. Jesus didn’t even ask John the Baptist to put in a good word for Him.

LOL. Well, now, we don’t know how many things He asked of His mother, do we? Do you think He never asked her to mend His clothes, or cook for his friends?

Jesus did not need to ask John to put in a good word. John put it in without being asked. That’s what friends are for!

Is maintaining your salvation by works, not considered works? Back to the drawing board, the Bible says “Not by works.”

Different set of works. The good deeds that God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them are not to be confused with the obligations of Mosaic Law. We are now under grace, and our works reflect the obedience of faith.

Then why do you argue that you have to do works to fulfill your part of the deal?

Because we don’t separate the grace that saves us from the grace that works out that salvation in us.

Then again God is not a man, His ways are not our ways.

Which is why it is so important to obey His commandments. He gives them to us for our own good.

 

[HankZ]

Well of course God will never disown us. The only one who can disown us is us. Lucifer had to use temptation and lies to trick Adam and Eve into turning from God of their own free will. He couldn’t MAKE them do it, and even after they were kicked out of Eden, God never stopped loving them.

Likewise, life on its own cannot separate us from the love of God. How we choose to react to life is a different matter. CWBetts brought up the example of Judas. Judas initially had faith in Jesus, and when things were going well did not question his faith. But once the tribulations began, once Jesus started preaching that “crazy stuff” about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, once most of Jesus’ followers left him because of that, once the authorities were looking for Jesus and his disciples, then and only then did Judas betray Jesus.

Tribulation certainly did give Judas the opportunity for betrayal. It also gave Peter the opportunity to deny Jesus three times in rather short succession. But the tribulation itself was not the cause of their sin. Their choices were. The love of God was always extended to both Peter and Judas. Judas in his pride chose to kill himself rather than face the consequences of his actions.

God never stopped loving either of them. He never stops loving us, and always has his hand extended to us no matter what we do. But it’s up to us to take hold of his hand, and to continue holding it tightly. Peter let go, but then begged God to hold hands again. Judas let go and did not. But in neither case did God let go. It is always us.

All of the apostles except for one eventually met a martryr’s death. In the end, the same Peter who had denied Jesus three times willingly gave up his life rather than deny him again. Holding hands with God mattered so much to him that his life was irrelevant in comparison. And THAT is why we are to rejoice in tribulation. It gives us a chance to prove exactly how much we love God. Is our faith strong enough to stand by him no matter the cost to ourselves, even if it results in our suffering or death? Or do we take the easy way out and turn from him for a bit of short-term relief?

Faith can be lost, but while we still live it can also be regained. Salvation once granted can never be lost. But it is a mistake to believe that salvation happens while we live and breathe, rather than at the end of our life. To equate salvation with a mere declaration of faith flies in the face of reason and requires ignoring a lot of Scripture. We are given the promise of salvation, but only if we follow the will of God. By refusing to submit to God’s will, we also refuse his offer of salvation.

This is why it flies in the face of reason. A person makes a public declaration of their faith in Jesus and lives the life of a good Christian for many years. At some later point in their life they deny their faith for whatever excuse seems convenient at the time (spouse dies due to horrible suffering illness, child turns to a life of crime, etc). They remain separated from Jesus at their death. How in the world can you say that person is still guaranteed salvation based on a past declaration of faith that they no longer accept?

You are overlooking scripture to believe that you can somehow control your own salvation. It is not yours to recieve or to give back or to finish. You are either a slave to sin and an enemy of God, or you are a slave to the Lord Jesus and He will not abandon His sheep. He is the good shepherd. He says, my sheep know my voice and follow me. Why do you think He used a shepherd as an example? Shepherds will nurse sick sheep back to health, even if it means they are laying down through the night sharing their body heat to help them. They will face bears, lions and any other preditor that has ill intentions toward their sheep. If a sheep is to close to a cliff, the shepherd will pull it back with his hook. After the sheep doesn’t learn to stay away from the cliff, the shepherd may have to use the rod, which means he may break the sheep’s leg for the benefit of the sheep. This does not delight the shepherd, but for the protection of his sheep, he does what must be done. Jesus will break us if need be too. He is our good shepherd and will take care of us so much more then any shepherd has taken care of his flock.
Jesus will not lose one sheep. He may have to disipline all of them at one time or more, but trust in Jesus to do what He said.
He is faithful to finish the good work He started. You didn’t start it, you can’t give it back and you can’t finish it. All we can do is thank Him.

 

[HankZ]

apology accepted and i offer you an apology for my “temper tantrum”.

Thank you.

 

[HankZ]

Yes. We access the grace that saves through faith. IT is a faith that works.

Gal 5:6
the only thing that counts is faith working through love.

[This is after, “in Christ” appear, which indicates that the author is speaking of someone who is already saved. After He is already, “in Christ,” then good works are possible.

And after that barrier is removed through the free gift of His grace, He places His spirit within us, and that spirit works.

“Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 **for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” **Phil 2:12-13

Phil 2:12-13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

The grace that saves us is not separated from the Grace that works in us, producing the fruit of salvation. Those vines that do not produce fruit will be cut off, and thrown into the fire. Why? Because the grace is not at work in them to will and to do HIs good pleasure.

both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Since it is God’s doing, how can you mix up verses to say that He will cut off those branches? Is God not doing a good enough job in someone that He will cut them out. You can’t combine verses like these which are totally different to make up something else. That is twisting words to mean something they do not mean.
guanophore;4566306:

Yes, this is Catholic.

John 10:26-30;
26 But you do not believe me because you are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will NEVER parish; and NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND.29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater then all; and NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH THEM OUT OF THE FATHER’S HAND. 30 I and the Father are one.

Are you claiming that someone is greater than the Father and can snatch someone or even themselves away from His hand. You are wrong.

That is not what the passage says, Hank. It says no created thing can separate us from the love of God. Yet it is the Love of God that creates us in free will, and with the ability to walk away from Him.

Mark 10:17-22

As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honor your father and mother.’” 20 He said to him, “Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth.” 21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions."

It is clear that Jesus loved the man, yet He allowed Him to walk away. Do you think Jesus stopped loving Him, because He walked away?

This man, though loved by Jesus, was an idolator. He whorshiped money more than God. He did not posses salvation.

What is there to “explain”? This verse was written by a Catholic, for and about Catholics. It is consistent with the teaching of the Catholic faith that there is no way we can merit our justification before God.

Paul Claimed to be Jewish. I guess you know his religion better then he knew his own religion.

Part of the problem is how salvaton is defined. The Apostles taught a different conception than what was given to you by the Reformers.

However, God offers many gifts that have conditions. For example, He provided for the Hebrews to be spared by the Angel of Death He sent to Egypt, but they had to slay the Passover Lamb, eat it as directed, and put the blood on the lintel of the door. Their obedience to His direction did not mean that the gift was not free.

I got a coupon in the paper that said there would be a free door prize for the first 100 people entering the store at 6 am. I did not want to get up that early, so I did not get the free gift.

So is Paul a Jew, A catholic or a reformer?

Angel of death? You are comparing the Passover, while the Jews were under the law, to the free gift of salvation? You are mixing verses to fit a false teaching. Why is it so hard to accept free means free?

No, I think he is right. It is scripturally evident that we do work out what God has placed within us. It is not possible to obtain salvation by working “for” it. We can only walk in the works that He created before the foundation of the world, that we should walk in them. This we do by grace, which he has shed abroad in our hearts through faith.

You are forgetting your earlier verse Phil 2:13. It is God in us that we are able to do His will, but this only comes after a completely, unreturnable salvation has been given.

 

[Alindawyl]

You are overlooking scripture to believe that you can somehow control your own salvation. It is not yours to recieve or to give back or to finish. You are either a slave to sin and an enemy of God, or you are a slave to the Lord Jesus and He will not abandon His sheep. He is the good shepherd. He says, my sheep know my voice and follow me. Why do you think He used a shepherd as an example? Shepherds will nurse sick sheep back to health, even if it means they are laying down through the night sharing their body heat to help them. They will face bears, lions and any other preditor that has ill intentions toward their sheep. If a sheep is to close to a cliff, the shepherd will pull it back with his hook. After the sheep doesn’t learn to stay away from the cliff, the shepherd may have to use the rod, which means he may break the sheep’s leg for the benefit of the sheep. This does not delight the shepherd, but for the protection of his sheep, he does what must be done. Jesus will break us if need be too. He is our good shepherd and will take care of us so much more then any shepherd has taken care of his flock.
Jesus will not lose one sheep. He may have to disipline all of them at one time or more, but trust in Jesus to do what He said.
He is faithful to finish the good work He started. You didn’t start it, you can’t give it back and you can’t finish it. All we can do is thank Him.

What part of Scripture am I overlooking that supposedly says God will force salvation on us even if we choose to turn away from him? I never knew God was interested in making us love him against our will.

Which then leads to the following question. If God will force us to continue loving him no matter what once we voice our faith, why in the world did he even bother giving us free will to begin with? Why didn’t he just make us love him from the beginning?

The allegory used several times by Jesus of himself as a loving shepherd and us as sheep is always used to prove a specific point. Taking it outside of that point, whichever one it is at the time, does not work. As an example, look at Luke 15:1-7. That allegory deals with Jesus choosing to associate with sinners who have repented. But thanks to free will we do not have to repent. Instead, we can choose to turn away from Christ. When talking of whose who have turned away from Christ, the shepherd is a judging shepherd rather than a loving shepherd. As Matthew 25:31-46 indicates.

And notice how in that allegory the sheep and goats are judged on the basis of their good works. Or lack thereof

 

[Fran65]

Once saved, that person hates sin and wants to rid themselves of it.

Which is exactly why Catholics try to do our best according to the teachings of our Church.

However, the question of saved or not is one for God. We cannot presume to judge for ourselves. We only know that we will be judged and that Jesus, His mother Mary and the communion of the saints will be our intercessors and advocates.

 

[twb1621]

…

Hank, Please respond to this post

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4564528&postcount=354

 

[NotWorthy]

A saved person can still sin and be separated from God’s will, but not lose their salvation, that comes freely as a gift from God. To continue in sin after being set free from sin may be foolish, but is possible,yet remain saved. Remember, nothing can separate that which God has joined.

So I can be separated from God and yet Abide in Him? Wow! That’s cool!!! It makes no sense. But it’s cool!!!

BTW, where does Scripture say this. For in John, 15, those that are separated from the Vine are cost off and thrown into the fire.

 

[guanophore]

So I can be separated from God and yet Abide in Him? Wow! That’s cool!!! It makes no sense. But it’s cool!!!

BTW, where does Scripture say this. For in John, 15, those that are separated from the Vine are cost off and thrown into the fire.

It is ironic that we are accused of leaving out or twisting scriptures…

You are overlooking scripture to believe that you can somehow control your own salvation. It is not yours to recieve or to give back or to finish.

I think “control” is a little strong. What God has ordained is that we should be partakers. We choose.

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days,

The call goes out, and everyone who hears it can decide whether to answer:

Acts 2:40-42
40 And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them, saying, “**Save yourselves **from this corrupt generation.” 41 So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added. 42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Do any of us imagine that the Apostle is saying we can actually “save ourselves”? Surely not! But, each one has a choice about whether or not to participate in the salvation God has provided through baptism.

You are either a slave to sin and an enemy of God, or you are a slave to the Lord Jesus and He will not abandon His sheep.

I am glad we are on the same page about the slave thing.

He is the good shepherd. He says, my sheep know my voice and follow me. Why do you think He used a shepherd as an example? Shepherds will nurse sick sheep back to health, even if it means they are laying down through the night sharing their body heat to help them. They will face bears, lions and any other preditor that has ill intentions toward their sheep. If a sheep is to close to a cliff, the shepherd will pull it back with his hook. After the sheep doesn't learn to stay away from the cliff, the shepherd may have to use the rod, which means he may break the sheep's leg for the benefit of the sheep. This does not delight the shepherd, but for the protection of his sheep, he does what must be done. Jesus will break us if need be too. He is our good shepherd and will take care of us so much more then any shepherd has taken care of his flock.

Jesus will not lose one sheep. He may have to disipline all of them at one time or more, but trust in Jesus to do what He said.
He is faithful to finish the good work He started. You didn’t start it, you can’t give it back and you can’t finish it. All we can do is thank Him.

Salvation does not originate in us, but there is definitely a point at which we enter into it by choice. Gifts can always be given back, or abandoned by the side of the road. We can fail to allow God to finish the work He has begun in us by falling away. In this we spurn the blood by which we were saved, and there is no longer any sacrifice for us.

 

[guanophore]

This is after, “in Christ” appear, which indicates that the author is speaking of someone who is already saved. After He is already, “in Christ,” then good works are possible.

Yes, of course!

both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Since it is God’s doing, how can you mix up verses to say that He will cut off those branches?

Because it is God’s work IN US. We consent, cooperate, and are receptive as good earth to the seeds He plants in us. We are God’s field, and we must be on guard not to allow His Word to be scattered on a rocky ground, or choked by thistles. These are our reponsibilities, part of the good works that God has prepared beforehand for us.

Is God not doing a good enough job in someone that He will cut them out. You can’t combine verses like these which are totally different to make up something else. That is twisting words to mean something they do not mean.

I thought we were in agreement that a right understanding of scripture meant that all of it must be taken into account? Christians are not passive, but actively “lay hold of that” which has laid hold of us. The Apostles teach us to "throw with force’ things away from us that will impede our spiritual growth. We are to strive, strain, run, grasp, etc, etc. These are all activities for which humans are responsible. God is at work in us to will and to do these things.

John 10:26-30;
26 But you do not believe me because you are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will NEVER parish; and NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND.29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater then all; and NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH THEM OUT OF THE FATHER’S HAND. 30 I and the Father are one.

Amen! What Blessed Assurance! I pray for the grace never to JUMP out of His hand.

Are you claiming that someone is greater than the Father and can snatch someone or even themselves away from His hand. You are wrong.

No. The fact that God has allowed humans to choose whether or not we wish to be saved and remain with Him in eternity does not make us “greater” than He. We are created with this freedom, and He allows us to exercise it.

This man, though loved by Jesus, was an idolator. He whorshiped money more than God. He did not posses salvation.

Clearly. But, that did not stop Jesus from loving him, did it? God desires all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth. He so loved the world that He sent his own Son. His love, however, does not equate to the salvation of all. Though nothing can separate us from His love, we can separate ourselves from eternal life.

Paul Claimed to be Jewish. I guess you know his religion better then he knew his own religion.

He was a Jew, of course! He converted to Catholicism.
Then he was a Fulfilled Jew. Or nowadays, they are called Hebrew Christians.

So is Paul a Jew, A catholic or a reformer?

Definitely a reformer, but not in the sense of the modern day movement full of all kinds of heretical ideas.

Angel of death? You are comparing the Passover, while the Jews were under the law, to the free gift of salvation? You are mixing verses to fit a false teaching. Why is it so hard to accept free means free?

Do you deny that God expected certain things of the Jews in order for them to inherit the free gift of salvation He provided for them in delivering them from Egypt?

Free means that we cannot merit it, that we are undeserving of it. Free does not mean there are no conditions to receive the free gift.

You are forgetting your earlier verse Phil 2:13. It is God in us that we are able to do His will,** but this only comes after a completely, unreturnable salvation has been given**.

I am not forgetting the verse I am just not adding the man made side car that you have. Scripture does not teach that we are saved once in time, for all time. It only seems that way if you leave out certain other scriptures. Besides, God does not stop holding out the gift of salvaton just because people walk away from it. If the young man had done as Jesus said, sold all his property and come to follow, Jesus would have accepted Him gladly. Salvation does not cease to be a free gift just because some people spurn it.

A saved person can still sin and be separated from God’s will, but not lose their salvation, that comes freely as a gift from God. To continue in sin after being set free from sin may be foolish, but is possible,yet remain saved. Remember, nothing can separate that which God has joined.

Who is taking verses out of context? You are using a verse that is in the context of marriage. Yes, nothing can separate what God has joined, but we are not joined in the marriage till the wedding feast of the Lamb, and that does not occur until the end of the age. The saints that are OSAS are those who have already finished the race, and they await us to join them.

 

[HankZ]

What part of Scripture am I overlooking that supposedly says God will force salvation on us even if we choose to turn away from him? I never knew God was interested in making us love him against our will.

Which then leads to the following question. If God will force us to continue loving him no matter what once we voice our faith, why in the world did he even bother giving us free will to begin with? Why didn’t he just make us love him from the beginning?

The allegory used several times by Jesus of himself as a loving shepherd and us as sheep is always used to prove a specific point. Taking it outside of that point, whichever one it is at the time, does not work. As an example, look at Luke 15:1-7. That allegory deals with Jesus choosing to associate with sinners who have repented. But thanks to free will we do not have to repent. Instead, we can choose to turn away from Christ. When talking of whose who have turned away from Christ, the shepherd is a judging shepherd rather than a loving shepherd. As Matthew 25:31-46 indicates.

And notice how in that allegory the sheep and goats are judged on the basis of their good works. Or lack thereof

Dead in your trespasses is just that. You are dead in sin and want to sin, and want nothing else but to sin. You do have free will prior to being saved and can choose. Unfortunately, we have always choosen to reject God and continue in sin. That has been a choice we have made each and every time. Now what is different, is God has choosen this time. He has not only choosen, but He is faithful to carry it to completion. That is why it is said, for by grace you have been saved, and not of works, least any man may boast. No one can brag about their salvation, good works or anything else.

Now about being ‘forced’ to love God. Who, after recieving this much grace and love from the almighty could ever say they choose not too? How rediculous of a statement.