The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[Martin777]

But the OT Law didn’t save. The rewards were temporal, as were the punishments.

Yes, scratch that. I meant to say, “*and not **just ***by faith”. As I stated later, the “Faith” part is understood by myself and HankZ, which is why I don’t feel it needs to be accented.

So do we start preaching “by saving faith alone shall you be saved”? I’m a little confused with the term “saving faith”, for I think to different people it needs different things.

I think the goats and sheep analogy is throwing people off. I’ve heard Calvinists claim that the goats went to hell because they were goats (they weren’t of the elect).

The goats and sheep analogy is simply that - an analogy.
And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. From then on Jesus treats them as the people that they are, not sheep and not goats.

Speaking of Calvinism, can you explain what this verse from Acts 13 means?–“As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

 

[Martin777]

This regarded the issue of Faith and Works together
Actually, if you are staying with the following response from the other thread you already answered the quoted question;

You responded
Originally Posted by Martin777
“I really do appreciate all those verses. I thought I have been careful to make this point: I wholeheartedly embrace those verses and believe that our works will be examined on the last day. But my point is simply this: It is saving faith that gets us into God’s family. Happens in a moment in time (has it happened to you? not being sarcastic).”
TWB - "Absolutely, I have indeed been blessed…"
Martin777 “…THEN we spend the rest of our lives serving God and doing good works that please Him and glorify Him. On that last day it will be seen that those who were born again–now “in the Spirit” were the ones able to produce works that truly pass the scrutiny of a God who judges the ‘secret motives of men’s hearts’ PAUL SAYS IN ROMANS 8 THAT THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD. Yet millions who have never been saved (in all kninds of churches) are running around IN THE FLESH doing works that CANNOT PLEASE GOD.
It’s why God promised in the OT that He would one day put his law IN OUR HEARTS! Because apart from that we can do works until we are blue in the face and they are out of wrong motives. Please deal with what I have said here and tell me what you think…”

TWB Responded with this comment and question;
As I understand you here you are acknowledging both faith and works must accompany each other. That God will judge us on our works as according to our sincerity and devotion of heart. This is what we are trying to emphasize if my understanding of your words are correct here so we would now based on this premise be in agreement. That faith alone doesn’t save us but both together. Correct? Wouldn’t it?

That’s a good question, and thanks for bringing me up to speed. I don’t always keep track of all the posts and responses. I believe it is faith alone that saves, and then that faith produces works that will pass the motive-searching judgement of God on the last day. Paus says “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, so no one can boast.” In the very next verse God says that we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. Does that make sense?

 

[guanophore]

Speaking of Calvinism, can you explain what this verse from Acts 13 means?–“As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

The Apostles taught that God pours out his grace on and that all are called to repent and believe. Some people respond to this grace, and choose to believe. These are appointed to eternal life. The Church also teaches that some are appointed far in advance, for specific purposes. The Blessed Mother is such a one. John the Baptist is another.

Not all those appointed to eternal life actually inherit it.

That’s a good question, and thanks for bringing me up to speed. I don’t always keep track of all the posts and responses. I believe it is faith alone that saves, and then that faith produces works that will pass the motive-searching judgement of God on the last day. Paus says “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, so no one can boast.” In the very next verse God says that we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. Does that make sense?

Yes, this makes sense. However, based on the verse you quoted, I think it would be more proper to say that grace alone is what saves. Faith and works are the manner in which that grace is manfested in our lives. The grace is a free gift, and we acquire it through faith. Grace is the basis for salvation, and the power behind both the ability to believe, and the works that reflect that belief.

 

[NotWorthy]

Salvation comes from the Lord, so says the Lord.

This statement always floors me. Salvation comes from the Lord… True. So why is it not important to follow the teachings of the Lord for Salvation.

When Christ preaches that are judgments are (at least partly) based on our actions, then who are we to just toss this in the wastebasket.

 

[firmfoundation]

Not necessarily, a person can be saved without knowing Christianity at all if they follow the laws of the heart placed in each of us by God. A true Christian is responsible to strive to live a charitable life performing good works in the love of all for the love of God. Certainly the opportunity to perform such works will always find a person but whether or not he/she lives such a life is a matter of our making the right choice for the love of our Lord. It is required to live such a life in the love of our Lord to reach salvation.

You know it seems to me from what the Bible teaches, that no one follows the laws of their heart. Didn’t the Bible say that there is no one righteous and that everyone falls short of God’s glory?

 

[NotWorthy]

You know it seems to me from what the Bible teaches, that no one follows the laws of their heart. Didn’t the Bible say that there is no one righteous and that everyone falls short of God’s glory?

Hmmmm… I thought Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous and blameless before the eyes of God.

Are you sure you’re reading the Psalm that St. Paul is quoting in context to see what he means?

 

[Martin777]

The Apostles taught that God pours out his grace on and that all are called to repent and believe. Some people respond to this grace, and choose to believe. These are appointed to eternal life. The Church also teaches that some are appointed far in advance, for specific purposes. The Blessed Mother is such a one. John the Baptist is another.

Not all those appointed to eternal life actually inherit it.

Yes, this makes sense. However, based on the verse you quoted, I think it would be more proper to say that grace alone is what saves. Faith and works are the manner in which that grace is manfested in our lives. The grace is a free gift, and we acquire it through faith. Grace is the basis for salvation, and the power behind both the ability to believe, and the works that reflect that belief.

You are absolutely right about Eph 2:8,9

 

[twb1621]

You know it seems to me from what the Bible teaches, that no one follows the laws of their heart. Didn’t the Bible say that there is no one righteous and that everyone falls short of God’s glory?

We must follow the teachings of God, however, God can do as He determines most merciful and just. Would you expect Him to do less?

 

[twb1621]

That’s a good question, and thanks for bringing me up to speed. I don’t always keep track of all the posts and responses. I believe it is faith alone that saves, and then that faith produces works that will pass the motive-searching judgement of God on the last day. Paus says “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, so no one can boast.” In the very next verse God says that we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. Does that make sense?

I do understand what you say here, but it sounds as though you believe we can not choose to do good works, but that faith alone makes us do good works. But if that is your position, there still would be no need for all of the teachings in scripture telling us Faith alone isn’t good enough or that we MUST do works in faith. the Faith alone philosophy causes scripture to conflict with itself where as Faith plus choosing to do good works does not.

 

[guanophore]

You know it seems to me from what the Bible teaches, that no one follows the laws of their heart. Didn’t the Bible say that there is no one righteous and that everyone falls short of God’s glory?

Actually the Bible does not 'teach". People teach.

Yes, the bible does say that. And many people take that passage out of context and misunderstand what it means. There are righteous person, as Jesus Himself testified. He did not come to save the righteous. Why? Because they were already saved by grace, through faith, before He came! You can see a list of these persons in Heb. ch. 11.

 

[guanophore]

I do understand what you say here, but it sounds as though you believe we can not choose to do good works, but that faith alone makes us do good works. But if that is your position, there still would be no need for all of the teachings in scripture telling us Faith alone isn’t good enough or that we MUST do works in faith. the Faith alone philosophy causes scripture to conflict with itself where as Faith plus choosing to do good works does not.

Do you not think faith is a choice?

I think the phrase “faith plus” is misleading to Protestants who have been steeped in “faith alone” doctrine. I think it makes more sense to emphasize “faith working through love”. Both Catholics and Protestants believe that we are saved by grace through faith. Some Protestants also have been properly instructed that this faith is faith that works.

 

[twb1621]

Do you not think faith is a choice?
Absolutely

 

[twb1621]

That’s a good question, and thanks for bringing me up to speed. I don’t always keep track of all the posts and responses. I believe it is faith alone that saves, and then that faith produces works that will pass the motive-searching judgement of God on the last day. Paus says “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, so no one can boast.” In the very next verse God says that we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. Does that make sense?

Let me say this regarding the position of believing Faith alone is all that is needed and faith is responsible for our good works through grace. While it is true that a person who has found that relationship with our Lord grows in faith, and good works become something that we want to perform because of that love and devotion, the works we perform is always a matter of choice and in themselves when performed for the right reasons give us additional grace. But not everyone who believes to be “Born Again” follows the same degree of effort in works. Some very little if at all, but merely judge others. For a person to proclaim they live up to their full potential of performing works for the love of others in the love of God is self-righteous and that can be very detrimental. Why? Because no one knows their full potential until they are tested by God and that is not a one-time thing. No one knows what those tests will be or if they will be able to pass those tests when the time comes. How many of us can embrace a leper or other mortally sick and contagious person, kiss the on their wounds, give up all they own and all the income they have, placing their very survival in God as people like Saint Francis did. How many people would (with no other solution) be able to pick a man up lying on the side walk barely able to walk on his own, soiled in his own vomit, excrement and/or urine with a stench you could smell 10 feet away, place him in your car on your cloth seat knowing it would absorb the soil with the odor permeating throughout the vehicle interior but ignoring the materialistic aspect just to take him to a hospital or shelter. Or would you rather give the man money for him to make it for care or shelter on his own? How many could leave their families for 6 months or a year to go to some foreign place to perform works of mercy for those devastated by drought, famine or contagious diseases. How many of us raise our children with the responsibility and care God expects of us and do we realize what is expected of us? If one lives this kind of life, God bless and guide him or her in their pilgrimage. The fact is we don’t know our potential or limitations until those tests come up but what we do or should know, Satan is the father of Lies and to think we couldn’t fall to his deceit is foolish, he is very good at what he does and strives inexhaustibly to take each of us down the wrong path. It is our free will whether we search for the truth in Him, to know Him and to develop in the love and devotion He deserves from each of us. And it is our free will to choose how far we can go in our good works but we never can know if we are living up to our full potential for the love of God until we meet Him in our judgment.

 

[guanophore]

The other thread maxed before I could respond to this, so I am bringing it over here.

Martin777:

The RCC doctrine on saints is one of the clear proofs that your church is. In fact the embarassment to Christianity. Paul’s letters clearly show that ALL believers are saints (literally ‘holy ones’ or ‘set apart ones’). Digest that, friend. The New Testament teaches that. See how Paul addresses the churches-“saints”. Meanwhile the RCC is totally contradicting God’s Word by limiting sainthood to a handful!!!

This statement makes it clear that you do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches about sainthood. The fact that we know certain persons have finished the course and are glorified in heaven does not preclude those of us who are still here working out our salvation. Sainthood is in no way “limited”. On the contrary, the Church teaches that we are all called to be saints, and as Mother Angelica says “don’t miss the opportunity”.

And just as a side note, this belief about saints is not “Roman” but is also shared by the other 22 Rites of the Catholic Church, as well as those catholics (Orthodox) that have no love lost on Rome. So if you wish to blame this phenomenon on Rome, it is incumbent upon you to dispense with the same belief in all the churches founded by Apostles.

Martin777:

The gospell that the RCC proclaims. It is one of WORKS. And it is the kind of thing that caused Paul in Galatians to say, “If anyone teaches you another gospel, let them be accursed!”

I agree that a gospel of works is what St. Paul was writing against, but the notion that the Catholic Church teaches this is erroneous. The Catholic Church wrote the NT, and the verse that says “you are saved by grace, through faith” reflects the Teaching of the Catholic Church, as does St. Paul, who was Catholic.

 

[HankZ]

Jesus’s death is sufficient to redeem us. We just need to participate in order to maintain our Salvation. Faith alone will get us nowhere. :

Luke 7:50; Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you, go in peace.”

Acts 26:18; 'to open their eyes so that theymay turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they mayrecieve forgiveness of sins and an inheratance among those who have been sanctified by faith in me."

Romans 5:1; Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Ephisians 2:8-9; 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Let me ask you something, if faith is all we need, why is the road so narrow?:

Because most people belive they have to participate in their salvation, deluding the work of Christ.

And what about all of Jesus’ teachings on Judgment - everyone of them teaches that we will be judged on our works.

And even Revelation 20 talks of this:

First there is brought forth 2 books, one is the book of life. These in the book of life are saved by grace through faith, and not of their own works, but that of Christ redemptive work. These individuals know that their works will never add up to salvation, even in the most creative math. Only those found in the book of life, were saved from being thrown into hell.

 

[twb1621]

Luke 7:50; Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you, go in peace.”

Acts 26:18; 'to open their eyes so that theymay turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they mayrecieve forgiveness of sins and an inheratance among those who have been sanctified by faith in me."…
QUOTE]

Try this, it might help… Let me know if it does.

The term pistis is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from intellectual belief (Romans 14:22, 23, James 2:19), to assurance (Acts 17:31), and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3, Titus 2:10). Of key importance is Galatians 5:6, which refers to “faith working by charity.” In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fide formata or “faith formed by charity.” The alternative to formed faith is fide informis or “faith unformed by charity.” This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19, for example.

Whether a Catholic will condemn the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term “faith” is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).

However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.

A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word “formed” to clarify the nature of the faith in “sola fide” renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic.

Why, then, do Catholics not use the ther in this regard, we would have to say, “Jesus is not God.” Obviously, the Church could not have people running around saying “Jesus is God” and “Jesus is not God,” though both would be perfectly consistent with the Trinity depending on how the term “God” is being used (i.e., as a noun or a proper name for the Father). Hopeless confusion (and charges of heresy, and bloodbaths) would have resulted in the early centuries if the Church did not specify the meaning of the term “God” when used in this context.

Of course, the Bible uses the term “God” in both senses, but to avoid confusion (and heretical misunderstandings on the part of the faithful, who could incline to either Arianism or Modalism if they misread the word “God” in the above statements) it later became necessary to adopt one usage over the other when discussing the identity of Jesus.

A similar phenomenon occurs in connection with the word “faith.” Evangelical leaders know this by personal experience since they have to continually fight against antinomian understandings of the term “faith” (and the corresponding antinomian evangelistic practices and false conversions that result). Because “faith” is such a key term, it is necessary that each theological school have a fixed usage of it in practice, even though there is more than one use of the term in the Bible. Evangelical leaders, in response to the antinomianism that has washed over the American church scene in the last hundred and fifty years, are attempting to impose a uniform usage to the term “faith” in their community to prevent these problems. (And may they have good luck in this, by the way.)

This leads me to why Catholics do not use the formula “faith alone.” Given the different usages of the term “faith” in the Bible, the early Church had to decide which meaning would be treated as normative. Would it be the Galatians 5 sense or the Romans 14/James 2 sense? The Church opted for the latter for several reasons:

First, the Romans 14 sense of the term pistis is frankly the more common in the New Testament. It is much harder to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “faith formed by charity” than it is to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “intellectual belief.” In fact, even in Galatians 5:6 itself, Paul has to specify that it is faith formed by charity that he is talking about, suggesting that this is not the normal use of the term in his day.

Second, the New Testament regularly (forty-two times in the KJV) speaks of “the faith,” meaning a body of theological beliefs (e.g. Jude 3). The connection between pistis and intellectual belief is clearly very strong in this usage.

Third, Catholic theology has focused on the triad of faith, hope, and charity, which Paul lays great stress on and which is found throughout his writings, not just in 1 Corinthians 13:13 (though that is the locus classicus for it), including places where it is not obvious because of the English translation or the division of verses. If in this triad “faith” is taken to mean “formed faith” then hope and charity are collapsed into faith and the triad is flattened. To preserve the distinctiveness of each member of the triad, the Church chose to use the term “faith” in a way that did not include within it the ideas of hope (trust) and charity (love). Only by doing this could the members of the triad be kept from collapsing into one another."…

continued at cin.org/users/james/files/faith_al.htm

 

[Martin777]

Let me say this regarding the position of believing Faith alone is all that is needed and faith is responsible for our good works through grace. While it is true that a person who has found that relationship with our Lord grows in faith, and good works become something that we want to perform because of that love and devotion, the works we perform is always a matter of choice and in themselves when performed for the right reasons give us additional grace. But not everyone who believes to be “Born Again” follows the same degree of effort in works. Some very little if at all, but merely judge others. For a person to proclaim they live up to their full potential of performing works for the love of others in the love of God is self-righteous and that can be very detrimental. Why? Because no one knows their full potential until they are tested by God and that is not a one-time thing. No one knows what those tests will be or if they will be able to pass those tests when the time comes. How many of us can embrace a leper or other mortally sick and contagious person, kiss the on their wounds, give up all they own and all the income they have, placing their very survival in God as people like Saint Francis did. How many people would (with no other solution) be able to pick a man up lying on the side walk barely able to walk on his own, soiled in his own vomit, excrement and/or urine with a stench you could smell 10 feet away, place him in your car on your cloth seat knowing it would absorb the soil with the odor permeating throughout the vehicle interior but ignoring the materialistic aspect just to take him to a hospital or shelter. Or would you rather give the man money for him to make it for care or shelter on his own? How many could leave their families for 6 months or a year to go to some foreign place to perform works of mercy for those devastated by drought, famine or contagious diseases. How many of us raise our children with the responsibility and care God expects of us and do we realize what is expected of us? If one lives this kind of life, God bless and guide him or her in their pilgrimage. The fact is we don’t know our potential or limitations until those tests come up but what we do or should know, Satan is the father of Lies and to think we couldn’t fall to his deceit is foolish, he is very good at what he does and strives inexhaustibly to take each of us down the wrong path. It is our free will whether we search for the truth in Him, to know Him and to develop in the love and devotion He deserves from each of us. And it is our free will to choose how far we can go in our good works but we never can know if we are living up to our full potential for the love of God until we meet Him in our judgment.

True to a point. For the Christian, those things pertain to our REWARDS, not to some future punishment or painful purging after we die. I think I finally found a verse that sums up the critical differemce in what we believe about grace–Paul says in Rom 8 that we “have not received a spirit of fear again, leading to bondage, but we have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry out, ‘Abba, Father!’”. What you proclaim carries with it a note of fear. And the assumption is that if you don’t instill some fear in people, they just won’t perform! That is LAW, my friend. And the truly born again person is out from under that system. Paul says it is no longer about fear and bondage! It is about unconditional acceptance from a Father who has the power, love, desire and promise to complete the work He has begun in me, and to be to me FOREVER the perfect Father. That’s a critical difference between the RCC and Evangelicals.

 

[HankZ]

HankZ;4550001:

Luke 7:50; Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you, go in peace.”

Acts 26:18; 'to open their eyes so that theymay turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they mayrecieve forgiveness of sins and an inheratance among those who have been sanctified by faith in me."…
QUOTE]

Try this, it might help… Let me know if it does.

The term pistis is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from intellectual belief (Romans 14:22, 23, James 2:19), to assurance (Acts 17:31), and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3, Titus 2:10). Of key importance is Galatians 5:6, which refers to “faith working by charity.” In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fide formata or “faith formed by charity.” The alternative to formed faith is fide informis or “faith unformed by charity.” This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19, for example.

However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.

A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word “formed” to clarify the nature of the faith in “sola fide” renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic.

Why, then, do Catholics not use the ther in this regard, we would have to say, “Jesus is not God.” Obviously, the Church could not have people running around saying “Jesus is God” and “Jesus is not God,” though both would be perfectly consistent with the Trinity depending on how the term “God” is being used (i.e., as a noun or a proper name for the Father). Hopeless confusion (and charges of heresy, and bloodbaths) would have resulted in the early centuries if the Church did not specify the meaning of the term “God” when used in this context.

Of course, the Bible uses the term “God” in both senses, but to avoid confusion (and heretical misunderstandings on the part of the faithful, who could incline to either Arianism or Modalism if they misread the word “God” in the above statements) it later became necessary to adopt one usage over the other when discussing the identity of Jesus.

A similar phenomenon occurs in connection with the word “faith.” Evangelical leaders know this by personal experience since they have to continually fight against antinomian understandings of the term “faith” (and the corresponding antinomian evangelistic practices and false conversions that result). Because “faith” is such a key term, it is necessary that each theological school have a fixed usage of it in practice, even though there is more than one use of the term in the Bible. Evangelical leaders, in response to the antinomianism that has washed over the American church scene in the last hundred and fifty years, are attempting to impose a uniform usage to the term “faith” in their community to prevent these problems. (And may they have good luck in this, by the way.)

This leads me to why Catholics do not use the formula “faith alone.” Given the different usages of the term “faith” in the Bible, the early Church had to decide which meaning would be treated as normative. Would it be the Galatians 5 sense or the Romans 14/James 2 sense? The Church opted for the latter for several reasons:

First, the Romans 14 sense of the term pistis is frankly the more common in the New Testament. It is much harder to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “faith formed by charity” than it is to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “intellectual belief.” In fact, even in Galatians 5:6 itself, Paul has to specify that it is faith formed by charity that he is talking about, suggesting that this is not the normal use of the term in his day.

Second, the New Testament regularly (forty-two times in the KJV) speaks of “the faith,” meaning a body of theological beliefs (e.g. Jude 3). The connection between pistis and intellectual belief is clearly very strong in this usage.

Third, Catholic theology has focused on the triad of faith, hope, and charity, which Paul lays great stress on and which is found throughout his writings, not just in 1 Corinthians 13:13 (though that is the locus classicus for it), including places where it is not obvious because of the English translation or the division of verses. If in this triad “faith” is taken to mean “formed faith” then hope and charity are collapsed into faith and the triad is flattened. To preserve the distinctiveness of each member of the triad, the Church chose to use the term “faith” in a way that did not include within it the ideas of hope (trust) and charity (love). Only by doing this could the members of the triad be kept from collapsing into one another."…

continued at cin.org/users/james/files/faith_al.htm

I would like to let you know, I do not speak, read or write Latin which is the launguage I believe you have written in this post, not sure. If there was to be some meaning in doing so, I do not get it. The rest of what that this post tells me, is that it was too difficult to remember what a word means when used a certain way, so the Catholic Church decided to opt for an easier word and definition, losing that which it origanally meant.

 

[twb1621]

twb1621;4550352:

I would like to let you know, I do not speak, read or write Latin which is the launguage I believe you have written in this post, not sure. If there was to be some meaning in doing so, I do not get it. The rest of what that this post tells me, is that it was too difficult to remember what a word means when used a certain way, so the Catholic Church decided to opt for an easier word and definition, losing that which it origanally meant.

Granted it takes effort to pursue knowledge, but you don’t need to learn latin. All I can tell you is if you are unwilling to try and find out and learn the differences, why they exist and what the truth is, you will never know… and frankly all your response means is you accepted a faith based on what someone else told you was right but never had the initiative to find out or learn Christianity for yourself. You are in my prayers.

 

[guanophore]

True to a point. For the Christian, those things pertain to our REWARDS, not to some future punishment or painful purging after we die.

You don;t think there will be rewards in the life to come?

I think I finally found a verse that sums up the critical differemce in what we believe about grace–Paul says in Rom 8 that we “have not received a spirit of fear again, leading to bondage, but we have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry out, ‘Abba, Father!’”. What you proclaim carries with it a note of fear.

Since the same Apostle who wrote that verse also wrote “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” what do you suppose he meant?

I agree that God does not want us to go about with a spirit of fear. Nevertheless, there are some things about which we should have fear.

And the assumption is that if you don’t instill some fear in people, they just won’t perform! That is LAW, my friend.

I think what you are saying is true, and some people only will act out of fear. However, it is not law. It is a very low level of moral functioning, and does, indeed, seem to lack the spirit of adoption as sons. However, I would rather a person did the right thing for the wrong reason than to do wrong.

And the truly born again person is out from under that system. Paul says it is no longer about fear and bondage! It is about unconditional acceptance from a Father who has the power, love, desire and promise to complete the work He has begun in me, and to be to me FOREVER the perfect Father. That’s a critical difference between the RCC and Evangelicals.

Well, it is not a difference, actually. It seems that way to you because you don’t understand what the Church teaches. The person who wrote that about adoption as sons, and about the power of the spirit to live in love and power was Catholic,a nd he wrote that because it is catholic teaching. The lack of understanding of it among many Catholics nothwithstanding.