The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[twb1621]

True to a point. For the Christian, those things pertain to our REWARDS, not to some future punishment or painful purging after we die. I think I finally found a verse that sums up the critical differemce in what we believe about grace–Paul says in Rom 8 that we “have not received a spirit of fear again, leading to bondage, but we have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry out, ‘Abba, Father!’”. What you proclaim carries with it a note of fear. And the assumption is that if you don’t instill some fear in people, they just won’t perform! That is LAW, my friend. And the truly born again person is out from under that system. Paul says it is no longer about fear and bondage! It is about unconditional acceptance from a Father who has the power, love, desire and promise to complete the work He has begun in me, and to be to me FOREVER the perfect Father. That’s a critical difference between the RCC and Evangelicals.

It is truly insightful discussing these issues with you and I certainly understand where you are coming from for the most part but I think the difference we are discussing here boils down to one particular point that we just haven’t found the center point, as we both would express it.
You approach me and everyone else here as though you are speaking to one and the same person without regard for what may have brought us individually to the Catholic Church and its teachings or kept us in our faith as the case might be depending on circumstances. I can tell you that I was raised Catholic but left the faith at legal age for 25 years because I had differences much like you have. The difference with me in my situation from many others is I was able to take that 25 years of professional training and experience and resources and utilize them when I began my search for the “True Faith”. I approached it from a non-biased point of view firmly believing the Catholic Church was wrong but believing in God and knowing the Truth was out there somewhere. I did go through researching many, many different belief systems including those you hold your beliefs in and what I found was rock solid and verifiable. I felt completely ashamed at my own chosen ignorance for not looking as deeply into Christianity as I should have much earlier with the love I thought I had for God. I have absolutely no fears my friend, my life is devoted to the Lord I love and what I do I do in that love. I don’t fear death and in fact thanks to His plan for me have lived much longer than I should have based on my life and events. I am here for as long as He chooses me to be devoted as His servant. The only “fear” I have if you want to call it that is the knowledge I could never guarantee not falling into serious sin through the deceit of Satan, which would hurt Him deeply. I know that I do not know what tests will come and as Saint Peter denied Jesus three times I cannot claim to know I would not fail Him at some point. I have been greatly blessed and as you call it “born again”. Being born again is not unfamiliar to Catholics nor does it void the possibility of falling or remove the free will we have to choose the works we do as I suggested in my last post to you. Did you realize before I asked that you have limitations or weaknesses that may make you not as devoted as you believed yourself to be? I don’t ever want to take His salvation for granted. It is the respect due Him who shed His blood for our salvation but which we can very easily be directed away from by our human nature. I assure you, I know exactly where I am, why I am here and how I got here without doubt and with complete confidence in our Lord, Jesus. It seems you believe because its easy to do good works for Him you believe these works are generated by grace itself and not chosen and thats good if they have been easy for you, but the times will come to each of us when we will be tested and at those times we realize our human weakness. You said before scripture does not conflict with itself and it doesn’t. You really should compare all the verses carefully that you support your view with against all those that support the teaching and electing to do good works and see what you come up with. That would be my suggestion.

 

[HankZ]

HankZ;4550455:

Granted it takes effort to pursue knowledge, but you don’t need to learn latin. All I can tell you is if you are unwilling to try and find out and learn the differences, why they exist and what the truth is, you will never know… and frankly all your response means is you accepted a faith based on what someone else told you was right but never had the initiative to find out or learn Christianity for yourself. You are in my prayers.

I never said I was unwilling, but this is not something I currently know however, I believe the Holy Spirit has the ability to show me the truth better then learning another lauguage. You know nothing of my faith, which did not come from any teaching of man.

 

[twb1621]

twb1621;4550544:

I never said I was unwilling, but this is not something I currently know however, I believe the Holy Spirit has the ability to show me the truth better then learning another lauguage. You know nothing of my faith, which did not come from any teaching of man.

HankZ, not to seem disrespectful but you obviously know nothing of the 2000 continuous years of the teaching of Christianity, and one more time I will say
you don’t have to learn another language but the Holy Spirit isn’t going to do it for you either.

 

[NotWorthy]

Luke 7:50; Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you, go in peace.”

Acts 26:18; 'to open their eyes so that theymay turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they mayrecieve forgiveness of sins and an inheratance among those who have been sanctified by faith in me."

Romans 5:1; Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Ephisians 2:8-9; 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I’ve got no problem with these statements. Why do you feel the need to use these as arguments? Catholics never teach that you can earn your salvation. They just teach what Jesus promises, to reward those who do the Will of the Father. You seem to think that Catholics feel they can get to heaven and demand a spot simply because they saved the world from hunger or what-not.

Because most people belive they have to participate in their salvation, deluding the work of Christ.

So, let me get this straight. I read the Bible and I see Jesus tell me that my Judgment will be based on my works. I read further and see that I can only go through Him to get to heaven. So I put two and two together, have faith in His promises that He will reward me for doing His Will, and end up being punished because I felt I had to do more than “just believe”?!? Is that how it is?!?

Of course, if this is right, then you must just the Catholic Church as the bastion of evil for leading so many millions and billions of people astray, eh?’

First there is brought forth 2 books, one is the book of life. These in the book of life are saved by grace through faith, and not of their own works, but that of Christ redemptive work. These individuals know that their works will never add up to salvation, even in the most creative math. Only those found in the book of life, were saved from being thrown into hell.

As I know there there is nothing I can do to deserve Heaven. I just trust that Jesus will reward me, however unfit I am, as He promised.

But those in the book of life are judged, as I pointed out, by their deeds. Whether their deeds add up to “John deserves Heaven or Not” is irrelevant. They are said to be judged by their deeds. Can you see how easy it is to think that Jesus judges our actions, along with our faith? All I’m doing is taking Jesus at His words.

 

[Martin777]

The other thread maxed before I could respond to this, so I am bringing it over here.

This statement makes it clear that you do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches about sainthood. The fact that we know certain persons have finished the course and are glorified in heaven does not preclude those of us who are still here working out our salvation. Sainthood is in no way “limited”. On the contrary, the Church teaches that we are all called to be saints, and as Mother Angelica says “don’t miss the opportunity”.

And just as a side note, this belief about saints is not “Roman” but is also shared by the other 22 Rites of the Catholic Church, as well as those catholics (Orthodox) that have no love lost on Rome. So if you wish to blame this phenomenon on Rome, it is incumbent upon you to dispense with the same belief in all the churches founded by Apostles.

I agree that a gospel of works is what St. Paul was writing against, but the notion that the Catholic Church teaches this is erroneous. The Catholic Church wrote the NT, and the verse that says “you are saved by grace, through faith” reflects the Teaching of the Catholic Church, as does St. Paul, who was Catholic.

So then are you telling me that you agree with Paul’s writings, which teaches that all believers–all born again people–are saints?i

 

[HankZ]

HankZ;4550940:

HankZ, not to seem disrespectful but you obviously know nothing of the 2000 continuous years of the teaching of Christianity, and one more time I will say
you don’t have to learn another language but the Holy Spirit isn’t going to do it for you either.

The Holy Spirit is the best teacher we have. Do you actually put fallible man against the Holy Spirit and say man knows more? This 2,000 years of continuous teaching was done by man. The Holy Spirit is God.

 

[NotWorthy]

The term pistis is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from intellectual belief (Romans 14:22, 23, James 2:19), to assurance (Acts 17:31), and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3, Titus 2:10). Of key importance is Galatians 5:6, which refers to “faith working by charity.” In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fide formata or “faith formed by charity.” The alternative to formed faith is fide informis or “faith unformed by charity.” This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19, for example.

I like what you’ve said. I feel that “faith” is a poor term, because many Evangelicals in my area (bible belt, Southeast Texas) tend to think that’s its merely a professon of faith and then, Once Saved Always Saved.

When it comes to Faith, I like the terms “Obedience of Faith” as St. Paul used in Romans as well as the “Repentance of Faith”. Both terms tend to point toward our Faith leading our actions, but our actions have to be done through our Faith.

 

[HankZ]

I’ve got no problem with these statements. Why do you feel the need to use these as arguments? Catholics never teach that you can earn your salvation. They just teach what Jesus promises, to reward those who do the Will of the Father. You seem to think that Catholics feel they can get to heaven and demand a spot simply because they saved the world from hunger or what-not.

So, let me get this straight. I read the Bible and I see Jesus tell me that my Judgment will be based on my works. I read further and see that I can only go through Him to get to heaven. So I put two and two together, have faith in His promises that He will reward me for doing His Will, and end up being punished because I felt I had to do more than “just believe”?!? Is that how it is?!?

Of course, if this is right, then you must just the Catholic Church as the bastion of evil for leading so many millions and billions of people astray, eh?’

As I know there there is nothing I can do to deserve Heaven. I just trust that Jesus will reward me, however unfit I am, as He promised.

But those in the book of life are judged, as I pointed out, by their deeds. Whether their deeds add up to “John deserves Heaven or Not” is irrelevant. They are said to be judged by their deeds. Can you see how easy it is to think that Jesus judges our actions, along with our faith? All I’m doing is taking Jesus at His words.

What are you saying, that you do or don’t have to do good deeds to go to heaven? That has been the discussion.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Holy Spirit is the best teacher we have. Do you actually put fallible man against the Holy Spirit and say man knows more? This 2,000 years of continuous teaching was done by man. The Holy Spirit is God.

This is an interesting, though erroneous claim.

Let me illustrate. When Peter slayed Ananias and his wife, did Peter do it? Or did the Holy Spirit?

When Peter and Paul each healed people and raised them from the dead, did they do it? Or the Holy Spirit?

When the Church, through fallible men, teaches the Truth, is it the men teaching the Truth? Or is it the Holy Spirit? Catholic trust Jesus’ words that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church to all the Truth. This truth is the 2000 years of history that TWB is talking about.

 

[HankZ]

HankZ;4551072:

This is an interesting, though erroneous claim.

Let me illustrate. When Peter slayed Ananias and his wife, did Peter do it? Or did the Holy Spirit?

When Peter and Paul each healed people and raised them from the dead, did they do it? Or the Holy Spirit?

When the Church, through fallible men, teaches the Truth, is it the men teaching the Truth? Or is it the Holy Spirit? Catholic trust Jesus’ words that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church to all the Truth. This truth is the 2000 years of history that TWB is talking about.

What is erroneous, that the Holy Spirit is God, or men are fallible?

 

[guanophore]

I never said I was unwilling, but this is not something I currently know however, I believe the Holy Spirit has the ability to show me the truth better then learning another lauguage. You know nothing of my faith, which did not come from any teaching of man.

Well, Hank, the fact is that we embrace a faith that has transcended many languages and cultures, and the best we can do to understand it is to educate ourselves in those cultures and languages in which our faith is rooted. For example, Jesus testified that “salvation is of the Jews”. We know that all that was written in the OT is there for our instruction, and is a shadow of what was to come. If we understand the shadows then we will have a better appreciation for the fulfillment. The NT was written originally in Aramaic and Greek. Knowing some things about these languages greately enriches our faith. If you are serious about having the HS show you more about your faith, then I encourage you to be open to these things.

 

[NotWorthy]

What are you saying, that you do or don’t have to do good deeds to go to heaven? That has been the discussion.

That your good deeds must be done through faith. If you think that, by declaring that you believe in God, and then walk around in obliviion never lifting a hand to help out all of God’s Children, then you are only kidding yourself.

But if you continue to act through faith, doing the will of the Father, then you will be treated like the sheep in the parables, as well as all the other times that Jesus talks of Judgments.

Our acts, in and of themselves, could never earn us a spot in heaven. But I trust Jesus when He says that He will reward me when I do the Will of the Father. I call that Faith.

As I said earlier, my definition of Faith more closely resembles what I think to be “the obedience of Faith”. It’s actually, though, a redundant phrase, for you can’t have faith without obedience to the one you are faithful to.

 

[NotWorthy]

NotWorthy;4551135:

What is erroneous, that the Holy Spirit is God, or men are fallible?

That when the fallible men are teaching the truth, they are not being guided by the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised us this in the Last Supper Discourse in John’s Gospel. It’s what has kept the Catholic Church to be the Bride of Christ for almost 2000 years.

 

[guanophore]

So then are you telling me that you agree with Paul’s writings, which teaches that all believers–all born again people–are saints?i

the NT was written by Catholics, Martin. St. Paul is writing what the Catholic Church believes and teaches.

 

[guanophore]

The Holy Spirit is the best teacher we have. Do you actually put fallible man against the Holy Spirit and say man knows more? This 2,000 years of continuous teaching was done by man. The Holy Spirit is God.

I think you just have a deficiency of understanding about how the HS teaches through the Church. Try reading about the Council of Jerusalem in the book of Acts. This is a good illustration of what has been happening the last 2000 years. I think you missed that the HS was present.

What are you saying, that you do or don’t have to do good deeds to go to heaven? That has been the discussion.

We are saved by grace, through faith, not of ourselves. There is now way we can 'work" our way into heaven.

What we are saying is that saving faith is faith that works. If it is not faith working through love, then it is a dead faith, which faith will not save anyone. Can you tell me where in the Bible the words “faith alone” appear together?

What is erroneous, that the Holy Spirit is God, or men are fallible?

I think what is erroneous is your understanding of how the HS works through people. Who was it that revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Son of God? What made his statement infallible?

 

[twb1621]

twb1621;4550976:

The Holy Spirit is the best teacher we have. Do you actually put fallible man against the Holy Spirit and say man knows more? This 2,000 years of continuous teaching was done by man. The Holy Spirit is God.

According to the words of Jesus, He guaranteed the apostles the guidance of the Holy Spirit in His Church and vowed to be with His Church always. The teachings have never changed. Do you not believe in Scripture or the Word of Jesus?

 

[Martin777]

HankZ;4550940:

HankZ, not to seem disrespectful but you obviously know nothing of the 2000 continuous years of the teaching of Christianity, and one more time I will say
you don’t have to learn another language but the Holy Spirit isn’t going to do it for you either.

It’s amazing if you think about it–hundreds of thousands of pastors, scholars, missionaries and ministries with incredible results, looking often much more like the explosion in the book of Acts than the RCC has ever seen, and yet none of them are led by the Holy Spirit or guided in interpretation by rhe Holy Spirit! (Edited)

 

[HankZ]

HankZ;4551072:

According to the words of Jesus, He guaranteed the apostles the guidance of the Holy Spirit in His Church and vowed to be with His Church always. The teachings have never changed. Do you not believe in Scripture or the Word of Jesus?

I do believe in scripture. It tells me that all believers in Jesus will be given the Holy Spirit. I get the feeling from this, you think that only the church leaders are allowed the Holy Spirit. Is that what you’re saying?

 

[tm30]

The Holy Spirit is the best teacher we have.

Really? Where can I find a copy of the Protestant Catechism?

You know, a unified deposit of teaching from the Holy Spirit.

I haven’t seen one, and the plethora of denominations is proof positive that, if it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to teach us all individually, without any controlling authority, then He’s failed miserably.

 

[tm30]

twb1621;4551296:

I do believe in scripture. It tells me that all believers in Jesus will be given the Holy Spirit. I get the feeling from this, you think that only the church leaders are allowed the Holy Spirit. Is that what you’re saying?

The Holy Spirit is received in the method and matter of the Sacraments. If you believe that everyone is just “given” the Holy Spirit, I presume you view baptism as empty ceremony?