The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[tqualey]

Hi, Carl,

When I first read your post … I thought it was right on target, but could have been a little more charitable. And… then I put that thought on my mental ‘back burner’ and did something else.

Well…I just read his response… and you know … you were really more charitable then I had originally given you credit for! Sorry about that

I, for one, am tired of those Protestants who come on CAF with the sole goal of converting Catholics to any one of thousands of branches of Protestantism which is missing the fullness of truth. I suggest you actually pay attention to what we are saying in defense of the CAtholic Church, the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ, and let go of your belief in the mistaken teachings of someone who’s beliefs are even more radical than the original reformers! We give you Scriptures, we give you the Church Fathers, you claim “Sola Scriptura”, which itself was invented by Martin Luther.

Repeatedly ignoring what others have worked hard to provide is frustrating, indeed - but, you know, this list and these posts is more then just winning arguments with those who refuse to even take the time to read what is provided. It is about strengthening the Body of Christ through posts that show Christ’s love and courage to move forward in our lives. Others read these posts - and they can be encouraged in learning more about the Catholic Faith - and truly see the slim pickings offered in these pitiful Protestant responses that simply endorse the human teaching of SS and OSAS and ignore everything else that Christ taught, that the New Testament teaches and that the Catholic Church - the ONE founded by Christ continues to teach.

The TRUTH about redemption is this: it is not earned - but it is a singular Gifit (Grace) of Jesus Christ - the Second Person fo the Trinity, Who died so that we may all live. Our response to this tremendous Gift is that we must respond to (and that would be ‘Works’ as St. James talks about) what Christ told us to do if we expect to be with Christ in Heaven.

Oh, errr… on another topic… what or who is “Juror #3”? I am sure it is a joke … but, I did not get it…

God bless

 

[CWBetts]

Hi, Carl,

When I first read your post … I thought it was right on target, but could have been a little more charitable. And… then I put that thought on my mental ‘back burner’ and did something else.

Well…I just read his response… and you know … you were really more charitable then I had originally given you credit for! Sorry about that

Repeatedly ignoring what others have worked hard to provide is frustrating, indeed - but, you know, this list and these posts is more then just winning arguments with those who refuse to even take the time to read what is provided. It is about strengthening the Body of Christ through posts that show Christ’s love and courage to move forward in our lives. Others read these posts - and they can be encouraged in learning more about the Catholic Faith - and truly see the slim pickings offered in these pitiful Protestant responses that simply endorse the human teaching of SS and OSAS and ignore everything else that Christ taught, that the New Testament teaches and that the Catholic Church - the ONE founded by Christ continues to teach.

The TRUTH about redemption is this: it is not earned - but it is a singular Gifit (Grace) of Jesus Christ - the Second Person fo the Trinity, Who died so that we may all live. Our response to this tremendous Gift is that we must respond to (and that would be ‘Works’ as St. James talks about) what Christ told us to do if we expect to be with Christ in Heaven.

Oh, errr… on another topic… what or who is “Juror #3”? I am sure it is a joke … but, I did not get it…

God bless

I am an old movie buff. Juror #3 was the angry juror in “Twelve Angry Men” ( the good one with Henry Fonda). He refuses to the end to accept any evidence that the kid on trial may not be guilty, blindly clinging to his own prejudices and preconcieved notions. (Its a great flick. Don’t walk, RUN to the video store and rent it. You won’t be sorry.

 

[joe370]

Your arguments have been against trusting the bible as truth. My argument has been that scripture is truthful and trustworthy, regardless of any and all human teaching. The Holy Spirit will not lead anyone into any teaching that contradics the Word of God.
Reply With Quote

Hank, if you don’t mind me asking, why do you trust your bible, but distrust Jesus’ Church, the same church that gave you your bible, with the help of the H.S. guiding Jesus’ church in perpetuity? If the H.S. is responsible for sola scriptura, (of course he is not) then the Holy Spirit can’ be trusted, for there is a bevy of differing beliefs, all based on the authority of the bible. Where in the bible does it say the bible was given to the Apostles to distribute to every Christian who will then interpret the word of God?

The bible, where truth can be found thanks to the C.C. (the pillar and foundation of truth)-- says, *“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and **teaching them **to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
*
Jesus’ established church are the " teachers" charged with the mission of promulgating the good news --charged with the task of properly interpreting holy scripture?

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter :20

I would never claim to possess absolute perennial authority when it came to interpreting scripture; the bible forbids it.

If absolute perennial authority (not selective, short term authority, until the bible was written, as some non-Catholics bandy about, and then that authority was transferred to the bible, which completely undermines Jesus’ promise of perpetuity to His One Church) – wasn’t granted to the Catholic Church, then why should I trust the notion that what I read in my bible is in fact the word of god??? If complete authority lies within the pages of holy scripture, how can I be sure that the Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha and the Gnostic writings
are not inspired, after all the bible doesn’t come with a table of contents; that was put there by the Catholic Church?

Do you believe that Jesus’ Church established circa 33 AD is guided by the Holy Spirit, until Jesus’ return?

The bible tells us that Jesus will be with His established church (created in the 1st century) forever, through every century, until the end of time: GOD has said He will be with His Church (Ecclesia, “assembly, congregation, council”) forever! *"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, *I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. --“I will never leave you, neither will I forsake you.” Heb13:5; John 14:16 “…And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.” --In Mt 28:20, Jesus said, “and I am with you all days, even until the end of the world.” Jesus also said --“to him be glory in the church **and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.” Ephesians 3:21 That means Jesus will be with His Church every day in every century until the end of time.

The Bible tells us that nothing will ever vanquish His Church Matthew 16:18; It doesn’t say nothing will ever vanquish His bible --of course we know that will never happen because Jesus’ Church is the compiler and protector of the word of God. Many have tried in the past and many individual apostasies will plague His Church in the future; that is the very nature of the anti-Christ, “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Rev. 12:17 –So, if God can’t fail, then surely His Church built on Peter and the Apostles with Jesus as the Divine Cornerstone, keeping the whole thing together, or as some like to think, built on God Himself, which just gives my point even more credibility,** can’t fail either**! If the Church Jesus built circa 33 AD failed at some undisclosed period, and required mere men to fix what God apparently could not, then God failed as well. For those who say God did not fail, He just transferred His authority to someone else due to the failure of men, then that makes God a liar, after all Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit to His created Church to protect and guide His church forever.

Would you agree that private interpretation of scripture (an absolute no-no according to scripture) has lead to division, disunity, disharmony and dissension, and Jesus’ established Church has avoided these pitfalls? Protestant scholarship surely agrees with that fact?

Look forward to your response!!

 

[benedictus2]

Oh, thats pretty good… That’s my Christmas Picture, wadaya think?

Love it! Do you know where I can download a bigger version of that. I want to print it.

 

[benedictus2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbl9 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/viewpost.gif
and at the rate his (Luther’s) work is going it won’t be long and it will be a single person and their bible that has the truth:shrug:
Hank when was the last time the bible saved someone?NEVER.
people are brought into salvation by the witness of others not the bible.

It only takes one person to keep the true church alive. Only Noah was considered rightous in the whole world. The fact that the rest of the world thought he was wrong, didn’t change their fate, did it? They were all judged and drowned in the flood. So it is a great work if one believer is left when Jesus returns. That means that the truth will have made it to the end.

This is the kind of response that really irks me.

Hank, how does your post address fb19s post? fb19 was talking abuot the Bible’s inability to save anyone and you reply with Noah?

And remember, there was no Scripture in Noahs time.

Do you know what non-sequitur means?

 

[benedictus2]

Biblically, intercession of saints, would refer to the saints God has placed in our lives. I have many friends who I consider saints and have asked some of them to lift me up in prayer(intercede.) I have also asked for saints to keep me accountable with certain struggles I have.** Asking a saint who is no longer alive, is like trying to be a medium and communicate with the dead.** Scripture forbids this and the old testament says anyone who is a medium should be put to death. Only one time (Elijah) was a dead saint able to communicate with the living and he rebuked those who spoke with him. Do you find your bible to be inconsistant in this area or should you follow God’s word and not try to communicate with the dead?

Okay, here are a few question for you:

1. When you die and presumably go to heaven, are you dead in heaven or are you alive in heaven?
2. If you answer dead in question one, what is the point of heaven if you remain dead anyway?
3. If you answer alive in heaven, then why can’t we ask the Saints who are alive in heaven to intercede for us.

You are totally clueless as to Scripture if you equate mediums and the invocation of the dead with the saints in heaven.

Conjuring of the dead is an evil practice. Saints on the contrary are with God.

Question 5) And if you say you are not sure these people are in heaven, well then, you are putting your doctrine of OSAS into question. That means even you are not sure you are going to heaven in spite of your claims.

 

[benedictus2]

Your arguments have been against trusting the bible as truth. My argument has been that scripture is truthful and trustworthy, regardless of any and all human teaching. The Holy Spirit will not lead anyone into any teaching that contradics the Word of God.

But you are the one who is not trusting the Bible as truth.

You pick and choose passages to shore up your heretical doctrine.

And you are right, the Holy Spirit will not lead anyone into any teaching that contradicts the Word of God.

Since YOU are evidently contradicting the Word of God in your interpretation, who is guiding you then? Hmmm, scary throught.

 

[Alindawyl]

Biblically, intercession of saints, would refer to the saints God has placed in our lives. I have many friends who I consider saints and have asked some of them to lift me up in prayer(intercede.) I have also asked for saints to keep me accountable with certain struggles I have. Asking a saint who is no longer alive, is like trying to be a medium and communicate with the dead. Scripture forbids this and the old testament says anyone who is a medium should be put to death. Only one time (Elijah) was a dead saint able to communicate with the living and he rebuked those who spoke with him. Do you find your bible to be inconsistant in this area or should you follow God’s word and not try to communicate with the dead?

You appear to be quite confused on this. There is no general restriction against communicating with the departed. What we are not permitted to do is use the services of a middle man who acts as a communications facilitator by conjuring up spirits.

When a medium or necromancer or what have you does their thing, they are claiming to either relay a message from the departed or handle two-way communication of some sort. What means do we have of verifying the truth of what the medium is claiming? How do we know they aren’t lying to us and haven’t even contacted a spirit, or have contacted a spirit but an evil spirit which tells lies? Either way we receive a lie, and we have no way of verifying the truth of anything a medium says. It makes perfect sense to not avail ourselves of such questionable “services”.

When we ask for the intercession of a saint, we’re asking them to make a prayer to God on behalf of us or someone else. We’re not expecting a message from the saint, there’s no two-way communication, and most importantly there is no third party operating between us and the saint. It’s not even remotely the same thing.

As the book of Revelation indicates in at least two chapters, the saints in heaven offer up our prayers to God. Why in the world would we not ask for their intercession? They are members of the Body of Christ in a much more perfect way than we who are still living in this world.

 

[joe370]

**

But that just generates yet another question. Who determines when they were inspired and when they were just being guided by their own spirit?

Good point! If Jesus’ Church, the C.C. wasn’t necessary, paramount in the process of selecting, collecting, collating, codifying and canonizing the bible, which every Christian scholar, regardless of denomination concedes --isn’t necessary, paramount in ANY decision making, whatsoever, then why was the Holy Spirit sent to His Church on Pentecost? Why wasn’t the H.S. sent to each individual, guiding them to properly interpret scripture? Surely if that would have been the preferred medium through which the H.S. worked, the bible would make mention of it!

Unless the Church is infallible all through out history, then there is a chance they they were not fallible even when they were deciding on the cannon.

Why this question doesn’t weigh heavy on the minds of those who don’t belong to Jesus’ One Church, I’ll never know! It always bothered me as a former Lutheran. If the H.S. is guiding Jesus’ One Church, how can it not be infallible vis-a-vis the Deposit of Faith? To question the authority of C.C. IS TO QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND EFFICACIOUSNESS OF THE H.S. --GOD!

**Aaah yes, the protestants have decreed that the Church was infallible at the time of the cannonization of the books but not before or after. **

I know! My sister believes that silly notion --Classic non-sequitur. The inference doesn’t follow the premise. If Jesus’ Church, the C.C. failed, then the Holy Spirit failed, and everyone knows that God cannot fail; individuals can and do fail, but Jesus’ Church, as an Institution, His Mystical Body, the House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth --with Jesus as the Head of It all, the Savior of it ALL cannot fail --period!

*"And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him (Jesus) as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way. If the Church is Jesus’ Mystical Body, then there can be only one church, for there is only one Christ and one truth –the “spirit of truth.”

Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body… Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it…That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish…For no man ever yet hated his own body; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church… This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."* Jesus and His Church are synonymous.

**So now we have a group of people deciding on the infallibility of the infallibility of the Church that determined the infallibility of scripture . **

Protestants permit selective authority, as opposed to perennial authority. If they didn’t, then that would cast some doubt on their man-made doctrine of sola scriptura. Again, to negate and undermine the importance of Jesus’ Church, the C.C., is to negate and undermine the Holy Spirit.

Question is, shouldn’t they claim infallibility as well to be able to determine someone elses infallibility?** Good question, I wish someone would attempt to answer it. Claiming that the bible is infallible, while also claiming that the church that gave us the bible failed, begs the question, why should I trust my bible? If Jesus’ church got it wrong regarding doctrines like the Immaculate Conception, or the Eucharist, then maybe they got it wrong regarding the codification and canonization of the bible. This was a major contributor to me becoming a Catholic. If the Holy Spirit is guiding and protecting Jesus Church, Jesus’ Mystical Body in perpetuity, then Jesus’ Church will always make infallible decisions. Unity is to be the Hallmark of Christianity and Unity, Oneness and Harmony, all virtues spelled out in the bible, to describe Jesus’ One Church can only be found in the C.C. The E.O.C. comes in second place, and endeavors are being made to bring the two closer together.

 

[joe370]

Okay, here are a few question for you:

1. When you die and presumably go to heaven, are you dead in heaven or are you alive in heaven?
2. If you answer dead in question one, what is the point of heaven if you remain dead anyway?
3. If you answer alive in heaven, then why can’t we ask the Saints who are alive in heaven to intercede for us.

You are totally clueless as to Scripture if you equate mediums and the invocation of the dead with the saints in heaven.

Conjuring of the dead is an evil practice. Saints on the contrary are with God.

Question 5) And if you say you are not sure these people are in heaven, well then, you are putting your doctrine of OSAS into question. That means even you are not sure you are going to heaven in spite of your claims.

*"Jesus answered them, “You are mistaken because you don’t know the Scriptures or God’s power, because in the resurrection, people neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven. As for the resurrection from the dead, haven’t you read what was spoken to you by God when he said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, **but of the living.”

---

This, all by itself invalidates “soul” sleep!!! If when we die, we cease to live, God would in fact be the God of the dead, rendering scripture errant!

Jesus said, God is the God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob – and not will be the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. He IS their God right now!

Not all protestants believe in “souls” sleep; the fact that Hank does, is proof that he embraces the traditions of his church. (and we all know what scripture teaches regarding the traditions of men vs the Traditions of the Apostolic Church --If he says he believes in “soul” sleep because it is spelled out in the bible, as opposed to the traditions of his church, then he contradicts the way other churches/denominations interpret scripture, rendering sola scriptura totally untenable. The bible alone doctrine can ONLY work if it teaches the same thing to everyone! Period! Truth is not variegated; there can be only one truth regarding any particular subject.

For me personally I will always follow Jesus’ One Church when it comes to infallible decisions, for the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth) will always guide Jesus’ One Church to Truth!

 

[HankZ]

Your arguments have been against trusting the bible as truth. My argument has been that scripture is truthful and trustworthy, regardless of any and all human teaching. The Holy Spirit will not lead anyone into any teaching that contradics the Word of God.
Reply With Quote

Hank, if you don’t mind me asking, why do you trust your bible, but distrust Jesus’ Church, the same church that gave you your bible, with the help of the H.S. guiding Jesus’ church in perpetuity?

Look forward to your response!!

I do trust Jesus’ church. I also trust that the RCC is not Jesus true church. Furthermore, I trust that at the time the bible was put together by the “catholic church,” the “catholic church” meant nothing short of universal church in which all believers were part of Jesus church no matter where they came from and it was no longer limited to the Jewish nation but to all people everywhere who trusted fully in the Savior, Jesus Christ. There may be some catholics that are saved, but the catholic church is not THE church. Jesus church is all of His believers. Jesus would not have created a church for men to abuse as rapist and child molesters to thrive in and be rewarded for their horrible acts, by being given a new congegation to molest and rape. You can explain the hoorible acts of the leaders of the catholic church if you choose, but the catholic church has caused many children to be abused when it was their responsibility to protect these children. They not only turned a blind eye to what the leaders of the church were doing, but actually covered up these atrocious acts and gave them fresh blood regularly so as not to let them get caught.

 

[HankZ]

This is the kind of response that really irks me.

Hank, how does your post address fb19s post? fb19 was talking abuot the Bible’s inability to save anyone and you reply with Noah?

And remember, there was no Scripture in Noahs time.

Adam died a short time before Noah was born. There were many men alive that had spoken with Adam and were able to give him many truths that came directly from Adam. Adam knew God well and these men would have had a large amount of knowledge of God to pass on to Noah. To say he needed to have scripture is like saying Jesus had to write the bible Himself in order for it to be true.

Do you know what non-sequitur means?

I have no idea but I’m sure you believe it is somehow important.

 

[CWBetts]

I do trust Jesus’ church. I also trust that the RCC is not Jesus true church. Furthermore, I trust that at the time the bible was put together by the “catholic church,” the “catholic church” meant nothing short of universal church in which all believers were part of Jesus church no matter where they came from and it was no longer limited to the Jewish nation but to all people everywhere who trusted fully in the Savior, Jesus Christ. There may be some catholics that are saved, but the catholic church is not THE church. Jesus church is all of His believers. Jesus would not have created a church for men to abuse as rapist and child molesters to thrive in and be rewarded for their horrible acts, by being given a new congegation to molest and rape. You can explain the hoorible acts of the leaders of the catholic church if you choose, but the catholic church has caused many children to be abused when it was their responsibility to protect these children. They not only turned a blind eye to what the leaders of the church were doing, but actually covered up these atrocious acts and gave them fresh blood regularly so as not to let them get caught.

The Roman Catholic Church IS the Church founded by Christ. All Protestant denominations are splinter groups with invented Doctrine that can only be found by taking Scripture out of context. By shifting to the scandal, you are saying you have nothing pertinent to give is to defend Protestantism. ANd for the record, teachers get shifted sround from school to school on a regular basis. More childeren are raped by family members than by priests. So drop this nonsense and stick to the issues at hand…if you can.

 

[HankZ]

Okay, here are a few question for you:

1. When you die and presumably go to heaven, are you dead in heaven or are you alive in heaven?

It is appointed unto men once to die, then the judgement.

1. If you answer dead in question one, what is the point of heaven if you remain dead anyway?

Dead to this world or this life. Moses died on the mountain over looking the promised land, right? Why would scripture say he died if he was in fact not dead? There is a difference between being alive in the flesh and alive in Christ.

benedictus2:

1. If you answer alive in heaven, then why can’t we ask the Saints who are alive in heaven to intercede for us.

There is only one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. Isn’t Jesus enough? It was through suffering and death on the cross that Jesus was able to break the curtain which separated us from God and gave us the ability to approach the throne of grace, boldly. To take Jesus work on the cross and go arround Him to saints who can do nothing, is a slap in God’s face. What good is it to pray to saints that can do nothing to help you and avoid praying every prayer to God Himself, who alone is the giver of life?

You are totally clueless as to Scripture if you equate mediums and the invocation of the dead with the saints in heaven.

Are you sure or is this another of man’s doctrines? The bible never addresses praying to those who are no longer alive in the flesh or alive in Christ. Talking to the dead is the same as talking to the dead no matter how you define it.

Conjuring of the dead is an evil practice. Saints on the contrary are with God.

Was Elijah a saint or an evil spirit when they conjered him? Weren’t they doing a good thing by your definition to conjure a saint? Then why did they get rebuked for doing such an evil thing?

Question 5) And if you say you are not sure these people are in heaven, well then, you are putting your doctrine of OSAS into question. That means even you are not sure you are going to heaven in spite of your claims.

Your presumption is incorrect. This has nothing to do with OSAS.

 

[HankZ]

The Roman Catholic Church IS the Church founded by Christ. All Protestant denominations are splinter groups with invented Doctrine that can only be found by taking Scripture out of context. By shifting to the scandal, you are saying you have nothing pertinent to give is to defend Protestantism. ANd for the record, teachers get shifted sround from school to school on a regular basis. More childeren are raped by family members than by priests. So drop this nonsense and stick to the issues at hand…if you can.

This is the best you can do to explain the supposed “true church” as a helper of rapists and pedifiles? Lying to people and covering up the acts of perverts who are wrongly trusted to be men of God?

 

[benedictus2]

benedictus2;4602813:

This is the kind of response that really irks me.

*Hank, how does your post address fb19s post? fb19 was talking abuot the Bible’s inability to save anyone and you reply with Noah? *

And remember, there was no Scripture in Noahs time.

Adam died a short time before Noah was born. There were many men alive that had spoken with Adam and were able to give him many truths that came directly from Adam. Adam knew God well and these men would have had a large amount of knowledge of God to pass on to Noah. To say he needed to have scripture is like saying Jesus had to write the bible Himself in order for it to be true.

And you just did it again! **fb19 **was asking you whether the Bible can save you? Both times with the example of Noah and Adam you miss the boat completely.

When will you properly address fb19s point. Does **fb19 **have to explain to you what he means by this question?

benedictus2;4602813:

Do you know what non-sequitur means?

I have no idea but I’m sure you believe it is somehow important.

Yes it is important because your replies are so way off target.

Non-sequitur means does not follow. Your arguments are non-sequiturs because they do not follow from the post you are responding to.

To Illustrate:
Mr A: I say that it will not rain today because the Sun is shining.
Mr B: You’re wrong. The Sun is the centre of the solar system and the earth revolves around it.

Get that? Mr. Bs comment does not even come close to answering Mr As assertion. And the way Mr B responded is the way YOU have been responding to a lot of posts. Totally non-sequitur.

 

[benedictus2]

I do trust Jesus’ church. I also trust that the RCC is not Jesus true church.

Let’s take it in bite size pieces.

By this post you believe that Jesus established a Church based on Matthew 16:13-19.

Now in that passage He establishes A (single) Church on Peter. Jesus says “Upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH”.

He also promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.

Since this is God’s Church, Christ being God, therefore that Church (singular) would still be here today because surely we can believe in God’s promise. He never lies.

Take away the Catholic Church since you say she is not the true Chruch, which of the 30,000 or so Churches then is Christ’s true Church?

You have to be able to trace that church back HISTORICALLY with a timeline back to Peter.

 

[HankZ]

You appear to be quite confused on this. There is no general restriction against communicating with the departed. What we are not permitted to do is use the services of a middle man who acts as a communications facilitator by conjuring up spirits.

When a medium or necromancer or what have you does their thing, they are claiming to either relay a message from the departed or handle two-way communication of some sort. What means do we have of verifying the truth of what the medium is claiming? How do we know they aren’t lying to us and haven’t even contacted a spirit, or have contacted a spirit but an evil spirit which tells lies? Either way we receive a lie, and we have no way of verifying the truth of anything a medium says. It makes perfect sense to not avail ourselves of such questionable “services”.

When we ask for the intercession of a saint, we’re asking them to make a prayer to God on behalf of us or someone else. We’re not expecting a message from the saint, there’s no two-way communication, and most importantly there is no third party operating between us and the saint. It’s not even remotely the same thing.

As the book of Revelation indicates in at least two chapters, the saints in heaven offer up our prayers to God. Why in the world would we not ask for their intercession? They are members of the Body of Christ in a much more perfect way than we who are still living in this world.

To go through a saint, is totally against the work of Jesus that open the communication offered for believers to go directly to God, through Jesus. What good is it to spit this back and try to approach God in another way than the one He gave? This is perfectly rebelious to God to not accept His offer bought with the price of His only Son’s blood.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Hank,

You know, I have come to a lot of understandings about these posts.

I have come to understand that you have difficulty with:

 **1- long sentences in general and long sections of the Bible quoted to reference a particular concept,

 2- responding clearly and on topic to a clearly stated question,and finally,

 3- referencing where you get your ideas.**

But, for some reason I mistakenly believed that you had a sense of pride in what you wrote and a basic knowledge of history. This last post is profoundly disappointing because it lacks both sincerity and character. It is also light when it comes to content. And, really, awarding yourself three thumbs-up for this non-response shows very little objectivity and sense of proportion.

So, let’s take a look at what you have and how you can do better - but, only if you try.

I do trust Jesus’ church. I also trust that the RCC is not Jesus true church. :

And, just WHAT or WHICH Chruch would that be? The absence of anything actually being said here is noticiable. And HOW is it you know that the RCC is not Jesus’s True Chruch? Again, there is tendency to make unsubstantialted statements - expecting others to take them at face value - and then you move on still more. This is not the way a logical presentation is made.

Just what do you think was happening to the followers of Christ during the first 1500 years after His Life, Death, Resurrection? The Bible that you claim to cling to was not delivered by the H.S. on Pentecost Sunday. Each Book that is in the Bible was carefully review by the Early Church Fathers and the Canon of Sacred Texts was closed by the Synod of Hippo, in 393. Luther did not nail his “95 Thesis” until 1517 - or, 1,124 years after the Canon was closed - by the Catholic Church.

Just what do you think was happening for over 1100 years?

What Church was teaching about Jesus Christ and His Commands to Love God and Neighbor, the Sacraments, Papal Authority and that the Holy Spirit would be guiding His Chruch?

Your comments about the sexual abuse of children and young adults by priests being a scandal are totally correct. There is no excuse for these sins and anyone that had anythng to do with such monsterous deeds will have to answer for their conduct before the Divine Judge.

But, let’s keep our dates straight. While there have always been people who abused authority - the sexual scandal you identified did not make the news until 1992 - and this was in the sense that it had become public. Both Pope John Paul II and the current Pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI have apologized for these misdeeds, and serious actions have been taken to ensure that those reponsible have been punished and that misdeeds like this have no place to hide.

Don’t foget Christ chose Peter to build His Chruch on (Matt 16:18) and it was this same Peter (in the next sentence!) that Christ told to “Get behind me, Satain!” He chose 12 Apostles: 1 denied Him, 1 betrayed Him, 10 ran away (and only St. John came back to be with Christ on Calvary. By any human measurement - this is a rather flaky crew to entrust such a responsibility. But, we are not into ‘human measurements’ are we? God’s ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8) - and, it is our job to line up ‘our ways’ with His - not the other way around.

The other posters have been rather tolerant of your indifference to fact, disregard of plain courtesy and on-going insults to others. My request is that you get a life and grow up. If you insist on posting on this list, do so in an effort to learn rather then an attempt to annoy others with ignorant and self-serving remarks. You can do it - but, as I said, only if you want to.

God bless

 

[HankZ]

"Jesus answered them, “You are mistaken because you don’t know the Scriptures or God’s power, because in the resurrection, people neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven. As for the resurrection from the dead, haven’t you read what was spoken to you by God when he said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, **but of the living.”
**

This, all by itself invalidates “soul” sleep!!! If when we die, we cease to live, God would in fact be the God of the dead, rendering scripture errant!

Jesus said, God is the God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob – and not will be the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. He IS their God right now!

Not all protestants believe in “souls” sleep; the fact that Hank does, is proof that he embraces the traditions of his church. (and we all know what scripture teaches regarding the traditions of men vs the Traditions of the Apostolic Church --If he says he believes in “soul” sleep because it is spelled out in the bible, as opposed to the traditions of his church, then he contradicts the way other churches/denominations interpret scripture, rendering sola scriptura totally untenable. The bible alone doctrine can ONLY work if it teaches the same thing to everyone! Period! Truth is not variegated; there can be only one truth regarding any particular subject.

For me personally I will always follow Jesus’ One Church when it comes to infallible decisions, for the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth) will always guide Jesus’ One Church to Truth!

Do not suppose to understand my beliefs or my unbeliefs. "soul’ Sleeping, I have never heard of such a thing, nor do I believe this rubish. It is rude to talk about others and presume to understand their beliefs when it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about.