The Chosen People

  • Thread starter Thread starter Soutane
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
In Israel, I presume?

What, in your professional opinion, are the legal impediments to the reconstruction of the Temple of Jerusalem?

What, in your opinion, are the political impediments to the resumption of animal sacrifices at a reconstructed Temple?

I ask because it is my impression that the modern state Israel has no interest in rebuilding the Temple and has, in fact, made promises not to disturb the Mosque that sits on the temple mount.

Also, I have never met a Jew who was keen on the idea of resuming animal sacrifices though I know that there are a handful thinking about it seriously.
Some Christians point to the destruction of the second temple as an indication somehow that the Jews were being punished for rejecting Yehoshua bar Yosef as anything more than a human being. It would therefore follow, if the Jews were punished, that Yehoshua bar Yosef was indeed whom his followers said he was.

Other Christians view Judaism after the destruction of the second temple as inherently different than Judaism at the time of Yehoshua bar Yosef. This they say is an indication that the Jews of today are not the same Jews of the time of Yehoshua bar Yosef. This is pertinent to our discussion because it solves for them the problem of the covenant between God and the Jewish people.

Still other Christians long for the rebuilding of the Temple as it would be a further sign for them of the approaching of the messianic age and the return of their messiah.

Now of course the destruction of the second temple happened two generations after the death of Yehoshua bar Yosef. The destruction of the first temple happened at an earlier time and place. This would indicate that the destruction isn’t connected to that particular person.

The Jews of the first century of the common era made up one in every ten people in the Roman empire. They were spread along its length and breadth. The synagogue as opposed to the Temple was already an established institution. Prayer as opposed to animal sacrifice already being established. Jews and Judaism does not require an intermediary priest. The development of the oral law from out of Torah was so far advanced that in the first century of the common era Jews had come to universal male literacy (some 1700 hundred years before the gentile world). So while the destruction of the second temple was psychologically devastating it did not derail the development of Judaism or the Jewish people.

Now you are quite right in your posts that when discussing whether the Jews are the “chosen people” you are discussing whether there is an eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people and you are seeking an answer from your Christian perspective.

(you’ll forgive me its been a long work day and I have much to write about and my english is deteriorating so I shall continue tomorrow where I left off)
 
Some Christians…Other Christians …Still other Christians…
Actually, although my questions (which I still hope you will answer) are relevant here my immediate motivation in posing them to you was the claims of a Jew in another thread that the rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple was both necessary and immiment. I bet him it was more likely that Israel would be destroyed a second time (in this case by the Muslims) than that the Jerusalem Temple would be rebuilt. I’m willing to give good odds on that bet.

I take it from your roundabout answer that you are agreed with me that Rabbinical Judaism sees no need to rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem and resume animal sacrifices. Is that a fair summation?

Now it is an interesting question whether Rabbinical Judaism can keep the Torah without the Jerusalem Temple, and therefore, whether Rabbinical Jews are “real Jews”. But let’s set that question aside for the moment as I know it will lead to a heated discussion.
Now of course the destruction of the second temple happened two generations after the death of Yehoshua bar Yosef.
More like one (33AD vs. 67AD). But I would argue that it was the result of the Jewish wars with Rome, a case of really bad judgement on the part of your ancestors. However, there is a historical connection between the rejection of Jesus and the wars with Rome in that the Christian Jews learned from Jesus to “turn the other cheek”, to “carry the Roman pack another mile”, and to “give to ceaesar what is his due” and it is entirely reasonble to infer that if more Jews had listened to Jesus, if only on this one point, then there would have been no Jewish/Roman wars and thus no destruction of Jerusalem and Israel and no “Palestine”.
 
CHOSEN PEOPLE
Code:
I don't intend to continue this dialogue as we obviously disagree. But let me make a few final points.

(1) You apparently don't believe that the Jews are the Chosen People, but many Orthodox Jews (and fundamentalist Christians) certainly do. The continual seizure of West Bank lands is often justified because they were part of ancient Judea and Samaria and therefore promised to the Jews. By the way, you haven't justified what probably troubles me more than any other one Israeli action: that Israel has kept building and expanding settlements on the West Bank. What do you think of that?

 (2) I am pro-Israel. Israel, however, will not survive if it continues to thumb its nose at the rest of the world. The UN keeps voting resolutions by overwhelming votes - opposed usually only by US and Israel and a couple Pacific islands, etc - condemning Israeli activities, but the US vetoes them. It's like drinking. True friends tell friends that they ought to stop drinking when it puts them in serious danger. The problem: the present government of Israel doesn't pay attention. 

 (3) Arab terrorism is outrageous. I trace the main origins of it to mistaken US policy in the Middle East. Had we properly and generously compensated the displaced Palestinians after 1948 the problem likely would have gone away. Instead the US always backed Israel financially, militarily and diplomatically. Why? AIPAC influence on our politicians plus the impact of Christian fundamentalists who believe that the resurgence of Israel meant the end times when Jesus would come back, the battle of Armageddon would be fought in the Holy Land, and the Jews who survived would finally accept Jesus as their Messiah. 

  (4) What if Mexico, which owned California, New Mexico, Arizona, etc., demanded that they have a right to take those states back (and only after 150+ years)? Would Americans say, fine, you have that right? Of course not. This idea that the Holy Land belongs to the Jews after nearly 2000 years is questionable. If they had bought it gradually, as early Zionists were doing, okay. But seizing it by military force - no. It smacked of old-fashioned European imperialism to much of the world.

   (5) Everyone should read the book "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy" by two professors, one from Harvard, the other from the University of Chicago, to get a fuller picture. Our media obviously is very biased on this issue - again, because of pressure from AIPAC, advertizers, etc. All I ask, frankly, is that both sides be presented, that the matter be debated freely. That's where much of my frustration comes in.

   (6) Europeans - Nazis, especially - were responsible for the Holocaust, and certainly not the Palestinians. But they are the ones who continue to suffer because of it. 

   (7) There is no separation of 'church and state' in Israel even though perhaps much  less than 25% are religious. I recall how buses don't run, television wa suspended, and much else on the Sabbath. There are restrictions on Christian evangelism, on religious intermarriage, etc. Only Jews can come to Israel and become citizens there. What kind of democracy is this?

   (8) Fortunately, there are many Jews, in Israel and in the USA - more and more here, it seems - who recognize that the Palestinians have been treated unfairly. Jews have been admired because of their humanitarian work, and how sad it is that this one issue has so clouded that reputation. When I was in the civil rights movement - jailed twice as I said earlier - Jews were represented well above their percentage. But when it comes to Israel, there seems to be a moral blackout. I think I understand it in light of Jewish history and the tendency of people the world over to be tribal, but I don't share this so I feel that I can be far more objective. 

   (9) I have spent time in Bethlehem on four occasions when I was in the Holy Land. I found the Christians there strongly anti-Israel. True, they also were concerned about growing Muslim pressure, also. The Christians are suffering in part because they often are identified with the US. You will find that many (maybe most?) Arab Christian leaders and organizations in the Holy Land have spoken out sharply against Israeli policies there. It's true that the Maronites in Lebanon have generally been more sympathetic to Israel, but they are the exception. There is a Christians-for-Israel group that I visited while in Jerusalem, but they turned out to be Christians from the US and the West, not Arabs.

  (10) That's all. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem. That will not come fully and finally until there is justice for the Palestinians. The Arabs have made serious errors, also, and if you were defending them I would be presenting other arguments. But you are an Israeli apparently, and you need to know how many quiet Americans feel. We are inclined to say 'a plague on both their houses' but keep hoping for a two-state solution that can bring reconciliation. Our constant backing of Israel cost us so much, including our problems in Iraq and Afghanistan. And now Israel holds out the possibility that it may bomb Iran! I try to follow Jesus, a Jew, who sought to lead us to love one another. I believe it would work, but it has never been really tried. All my life I have known wars, families who lost loved ones, huge expenditures for 'new and improved' means of killing, and I'm tired of it. There is a better way. Sadly, the US and Israel haven't tried it. And don't bring up the canard about 2000 and giving the Palestinians all they wanted! That is typical of the spin we get all the time in our media.

  Having said all this - my final commentary on this subject - I wish you and the people of Israel, the Palestinians (who, you seem to deny really exist), the Iranians, the Americans and all God's children faith, hope and love.
 
Hi, Bubba, well I somehow managed to start a new thread about the split between the jews and Chrsitians instead of answering it here. Dumb fingers.

anyways, I let it stand alone. Please read the answer to you question there. Sorry everyone.
 
Actually, although my questions (which I still hope you will answer) are relevant here my immediate motivation in posing them to you was the claims of a Jew in another thread that the rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple was both necessary and immiment. I bet him it was more likely that Israel would be destroyed a third time (in this case by the Muslims) than that the Jerusalem Temple would be rebuilt. I’m willing to give good odds on that bet.

I take it from your roundabout answer that you are agreed with me that Rabbinical Judaism sees no need to rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem and resume animal sacrifices. Is that a fair summation?

Now it is an interesting question whether Rabbinical Judaism can keep the Torah without the Jerusalem Temple, and therefore, whether Rabbinical Jews are “real Jews”. But let’s set that question aside for the moment as I know it will lead to a heated discussion.

More like one (33AD vs. 67AD). But I would argue that it was the result of the Jewish wars with Rome, a case of really bad judgement on the part of your ancestors. However, there is a historical connection between the rejection of Jesus and the wars with Rome in that the Christian Jews learned from Jesus to “turn the other cheek”, to “carry the Roman pack another mile”, and to “give to ceaesar what is his due” and it is entirely reasonble to infer that if more Jews had listened to Jesus, if only on this one point, then there would have been no Jewish/Roman wars and thus no destruction of Jerusalem and Israel and no “Palestine”.
 
Hi, Bubba, well I somehow managed to start a new thread about the split between the jews and Chrsitians instead of answering it here. Dumb fingers. anyways, I let it stand alone. Please read the answer to you question there. Sorry everyone.
Acutally, the new topic really is different and so it deserves its own thread. I’ll reply there.
 
:confused:If the Jews are God’s Chosen People(a posit I happen to agree with),why have they suffered and been persecuted for millenia?.Especially during the Holocaust?
The Jews of today are no longer God’s chosen people. Catholics are ever since Christ died.
 
The Jews of today are no longer God’s chosen people. Catholics are ever since Christ died.
I don’t think that is quite the position of the Catholic Church. While it is true that the New Covenant establishes Christians as the Chosen People, this doesn’t invalidate the Old Covenant.

Catechism of the Catholic Church said:
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top