The Chosen People

[Lev23]

No, we are not the same because many do not believe in Christ. Jesus came to the Jews to lead them to us. If you read the bible, and have common sense, you’ll see this.

Here is a chance for you to read the bible and practice common sense, read Romans 11:11-24.

**Romans 11:11-24
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!**

Remember St.Paul’s words the next time you comment on the Jews choseness of God-
“Do not be arrogant,…”

 

[DonLeon]

If the Jews are God’s Chosen People(a posit I happen to agree with),why have they suffered and been persecuted for millenia?.Especially during the Holocaust?

Isn’t it that God chastises those He loves? I also belive that, like Job, Satan is trying his best to get the Jews to turn away from God and God is allowing the Jews to be tested. Is it possible that those who died in the holocost apostacized? But then, how about those of other faiths, including priests and ministers, who also died in the Nazi gas chambers? For that I have no answer and cannot even speculate. I can only say that when we all meet our Maker we will be given the answer. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

In all honesty, do you think if the Jews believed in Christ the Holocaust would not of happened? Do they suffer because of this? Do they continue to suffer because of their rejection of Christ?
If Christ can tell Judas, the one who betrayed Him that “It would be better for you not to of been born”, I think anything is possible.

 

[Eleve]

Wow.

Blaming the Jews for the Holocaust.

“Profoundly disturbing” comes to mind. Most everything else I could say wouldn’t be appropriate for this forum.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Wow.

Blaming the Jews for the Holocaust.

“Profoundly disturbing” comes to mind. Most everything else I could say wouldn’t be appropriate for this forum.

Reread my post. Your profile states that you are “uncertain” about your religion/faith. Therefore I understand your misunderstanding of my post.

 

[Jon_Hus]

Wow.

Blaming the Jews for the Holocaust.

“Profoundly disturbing” comes to mind. Most everything else I could say wouldn’t be appropriate for this forum.

Eleve,

I appologize for OneTrueCathApos, this person is a hack, and not a good one at that.

 

[Eleve]

Reread my post. Your profile states that you are “uncertain” about your religion/faith. Therefore I understand your misunderstanding of my post.

Ahh, the “That wasn’t flagrantly wrong and offensive; you’re just stupid” card. I have more than one of those in my circular file.

 

[John7]

the Church is ‘the people of God’

read vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19911106en.html (its short)

What to do with religions that deny Jesus is the Christ?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist…"

How can a group NOW be ‘chosen’ if they are antichrist??

 

[DonLeon]

the Church is ‘the people of God’

read vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19911106en.html (its short)

What to do with religions that deny Jesus is the Christ?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist…"

How can a group NOW be ‘chosen’ if they are antichrist??

We have gone through this “Chosen” bit in another thread and it was explained in fairly good detail. All I can say is that although the Jews rejected God, He DID NOT reject them. They are still His chosen people under the old everlasting covenant. Also read Romans 11.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[John7]

We have gone through this “Chosen” bit in another thread and it was explained in fairly good detail. All I can say is that although the Jews rejected God, He DID NOT reject them. They are still His chosen people under the old everlasting covenant. Also read Romans 11.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

oh…I shall check/search the threads (you wouldn’t happen to know the name of that thread?), and read Ro 11

BTW
If Israel is chosen then what about Galatians 6:16’s ‘the Israel of God’
Who/what is considered Israel? The new state with major city Tel Aviv or…?

Matthew 2:6 “…Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people”
Israel"

aren’t those that Christ governs Christians? Or does he govern present day Judaism too?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I’ve been thinking alot about this subject for a while.

The first thing you have to ask is: chosen for what?

At a minimum, as has been stated by others, the Jews (Hebrews, Israelites) were chosen to bring forth the Messiah.

Clearly, also, the Catholic Church was chosen for a mission as well.

However, there is no reason to suppose or assume that the two missions are the same, i.e. that the Catholic Church has “replaced” the Jews.

Now it is a very interesting question: what is the role of Jews post 67AD. Having brought forth the Messiah and having otherwise destroyed themselves in wars with Rome, all that remained was a remnant that turned to Rabbinical Judaism.

Rabbinical Judaism, as distinct from Biblical Judaism, seems designed to be anti-Christian. It’s tempting, therefore, to assume that the Jews were discarded by God, having served their purpose.

I don’t think this is a safe assumption. There is nothing that prevents Jews from becoming followers of Jesus other than their choice in the matter.

However, when Jews become Catholic they lose their distinction as Jews (minimally through intermarriage or by otherwise violating the Mosaic Law). This is a slippery slope that began as soon as Peter and Paul started reaching out to the gentiles. Which is why Messianic Judaism is so interesting.

Was the assimilation of Jewish Christians into the gentile Church inevitable? Or was it merely the consequence of Israel’s wars with Rome?

I have no idea what God has planned but I think it is a mistake to ignore God’s promises.

A couple final thoughts: much of Jewish suffering follows from a few things:

1. Everybody is watching. Other tribes and cultures have met worse fates but don’t attract attention, and
2. Higher expectations. As a Chosen People, the Jews have a role from which God did not allow them to shrink.
3. Self infliction. Much of the suffering of the Jews was the result of bad choices in 1C-2C AD.

 

[DonLeon]

oh…I shall check/search the threads (you wouldn’t happen to know the name of that thread?), and read Ro 11

BTW
If Israel is chosen then what about Galatians 6:16’s ‘the Israel of God’
Who/what is considered Israel? The new state with major city Tel Aviv or…?

Matthew 2:6 “…Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people”
Israel"

aren’t those that Christ governs Christians? Or does he govern present day Judaism too?

I don’t remeber what thread it was, but it was fairly recent. As to Israel, it is the whole of Judaism. If you want a physical representation then I guess it would be the modern state.
Remember the everlasting covenant with God. This means that Judaism is still under the law of Moses.Judaism, therefore it will be judged by the law. Those Jews that accept Jesus as the Messiah are no longer under the law and will be judged along with the rest of us. And, Yes. Christ governs us all, Christians and Jews alike…

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Answersplease]

From my understanding that the Jews where the chosen people till Jesus crucifixion, after that anyone who believes in God/God’s Word/God’s Spirit is considered to be a child of God which is an upgrade to the chosen one.

John 1:11
He came to His own, and those who were HIS OWN DID NOT RECEIVE HIM.
John 1:12
But AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, to them He gave the right to become CHILDREN OF GOD,
even to those who believe in His name.

Mark 3:33
Answering them, He said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?”
Mark 3:34
Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers!”
Mark 3:35
“For whoever DOES THE WILL OF GOD, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

Some Jews followed Jesus The Christ.
Some Jews rejected Jesus The Christ.

All who receive Jesus The Christ are The Children Of God.

---

“Look in the mirror, and behold, the work of our Lord’s hand.”

 

[Answersplease]

We have gone through this “Chosen” bit in another thread and it was explained in fairly good detail. All I can say is that although the Jews rejected God, He DID NOT reject them. They are still His chosen people under the old everlasting covenant. Also read Romans 11.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

---

God was willing to destroy His people and make a great nation out of Moses:

Exodus 32:9
The LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people.”
Exodus 32:10
“Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”​

Moses convinced God to change His mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.​

Moses divides the people into those who obey, and those who don’t:

Exodus 32:26
then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him.​

Moses puts his soul on the line so God will forgive the sins of those who are left alive.

Exodus 32:32
“But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!”​

But God does not give in to Moses, and God judges the sinners anyway:

Exodus 32:33
The LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.”​

A new Covenant is made:

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a BETTER COVENANT, which has been enacted on better promises.
Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, He says, “Behold, days are coming, says the LORD, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;”
Hebrews 8:9
“Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in My covenant, and I did not care for them, says the LORD.”​

The old covenant is obsolete and is ready to disappear:

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."​

Jesus The Christ tells that the kingdom of God will be taken away from some and given to others:

Matthew 21:43
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”​

Jesus The Christ tells the fate of those that reject Him:

Matthew 21:44
“And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”​

Some Jews accept Jesus The Christ, some Jews reject Jesus The Christ:

John 1:11
He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,​

 

[Answersplease]

I’ve been thinking alot about this subject for a while.

The first thing you have to ask is: chosen for what?

At a minimum, as has been stated by others, the Jews (Hebrews, Israelites) were chosen to bring forth the Messiah.

Clearly, also, the Catholic Church was chosen for a mission as well.

However, there is no reason to suppose or assume that the two missions are the same, i.e. that the Catholic Church has “replaced” the Jews.

Now it is a very interesting question: what is the role of Jews post 67AD. Having brought forth the Messiah and having otherwise destroyed themselves in wars with Rome, all that remained was a remnant that turned to Rabbinical Judaism.

Rabbinical Judaism, as distinct from Biblical Judaism, seems designed to be anti-Christian. It’s tempting, therefore, to assume that the Jews were discarded by God, having served their purpose.

I don’t think this is a safe assumption. There is nothing that prevents Jews from becoming followers of Jesus other than their choice in the matter.

However, when Jews become Catholic they lose their distinction as Jews (minimally through intermarriage or by otherwise violating the Mosaic Law). This is a slippery slope that began as soon as Peter and Paul started reaching out to the gentiles. Which is why Messianic Judaism is so interesting.

Was the assimilation of Jewish Christians into the gentile Church inevitable? Or was it merely the consequence of Israel’s wars with Rome?

I have no idea what God has planned but I think it is a mistake to ignore God’s promises.

A couple final thoughts: much of Jewish suffering follows from a few things:

1. Everybody is watching. Other tribes and cultures have met worse fates but don’t attract attention, and
2. Higher expectations. As a Chosen People, the Jews have a role from which God did not allow them to shrink.
3. Self infliction. Much of the suffering of the Jews was the result of bad choices in 1C-2C AD.

Jews who become Catholic don’t lose their distinction as Jews.

“In one tragic instance, the Archbishop of Utrecht was warned by the Nazis not to protest the deportation of Dutch Jews. He spoke out anyway and in retaliation the Catholic Jews of Holland were sent to their death. One of them was the Carmelite philosopher, Edith Stein.”
catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp

I doubt if Saint Paul thought he lost his distinction as a Jew.
Acts 22:3
“I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers,being zealous for God just as you all are today.”

Ebionites (Jewish Christians) may have been heretical, but they did not lose their Jewish distinction.
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9405hotm.asp

The modern Catholic Church is composed of Jews who are the descendents of the first Jewish Catholics, and modern Jewish converts to Catholicism, and descendents of the first Gentile Catholics, and modern Gentile converts to Catholicism.

The Catholic Church claims that Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism.

The Catholic Church was founded by a Jew (Jesus The Christ) on a Jew (Peter) and composed of Jews (the Apostles and early Jewish followers), the Catholic Church can’t replace something it has always been.

---

“Look in the mirror, and behold, the work of our Lord’s hand.”

 

[ZAKI]

If the Jews are God’s Chosen People(a posit I happen to agree with),why have they suffered and been persecuted for millenia?.Especially during the Holocaust?

because they are not. All men are equal in the face of God.
Also if they jews ARE the chosen people of God-why don’t all the christians just become jews and therefore become the chosen ppl of God?

wasalam

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Remember the everlasting covenant with God. This means that Judaism is still under the law of Moses.Judaism, therefore it will be judged by the law. Those Jews that accept Jesus as the Messiah are no longer under the law and will be judged along with the rest of us. And, Yes. Christ governs us all, Christians and Jews alike.

The lawyer in me really likes the above quote.

And it makes sense too: A “covenant” (b’rith), in the ancient Near Eastern sense, is much like our Common Law contract. God makes a covenant with Israel. Jesus is “The New Covenant”, but Jesus cannot abrogate the Old Covenant any more than God could flood the earth again (remember the rainbow?).

Similarly, if I make a contract with you that I will paint your house for $1,000 and you accept, I still have to paint your house if you give me that $1,000, even if I later offer to paint your house if you replace my roof, and even if I paint the houses of others who have replaced my roof.

However, as a Catholic myself, I cannot hand over to God $1,000 (i.e. observe the mitzvoth), and expect him to paint my house (i.e. salvation) because I have already agreed to replace his roof (ie. through baptism, confirmation).

 

[ZAKI]

The lawyer in me really likes the above quote.

And it makes sense too: A “covenant” (b’rith), in the ancient Near Eastern sense, is much like our Common Law contract. God makes a covenant with Israel. Jesus is “The New Covenant”, but Jesus cannot abrogate the Old Covenant any more than God could flood the earth again (remember the rainbow?).

Similarly, if I make a contract with you that I will paint your house for $1,000 and you accept, I still have to paint your house if you give me that $1,000, even if I later offer to paint your house if you replace my roof, and even if I paint the houses of others who have replaced my roof.

However, as a Catholic myself, I cannot hand over to God $1,000 (i.e. observe the mitzvoth), and expect him to paint my house (i.e. salvation) because I have already agreed to replace his roof (ie. through baptism, confirmation).

I didn’t really get that but yeah… welcome to the forum

wasalam

 

[Answersplease]

I don’t remeber what thread it was, but it was fairly recent. As to Israel, it is the whole of Judaism. If you want a physical representation then I guess it would be the modern state.
Remember the everlasting covenant with God. This means that Judaism is still under the law of Moses.Judaism, therefore it will be judged by the law. Those Jews that accept Jesus as the Messiah are no longer under the law and will be judged along with the rest of us. And, Yes. Christ governs us all, Christians and Jews alike…

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

DorianGregorian:

Absolutely not. The Jews were God’s chosen people, and as such they were given the privilege of hearing the Word of God first.

However look at the exchange of words between the crowd and Pilate in Matthew 27:17-26. “His blood be upon us, and our children.”

Footnote from the NAB: “The responsibility for Jesus’ death is accepted by the nation that was God’s special possession (Exodus 19:5), his own people (Hosea 2:23), and they thereby lose that high privilege.”

“The Sinai Covenant, is indeed superseded” - Cardinal Ratzinger, Many Nations, One Covenant, P. 70.

Mystici Corporis - The New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished. - Pope Pius XII

“Council of Florence, DS 712: “It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosiac law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally.”
“All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. Therefore, it commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism’ to cease entirely from circumcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation.”

It is my opinion, that you should not be posting a topic that makes it seem like it is OK to leave the Church. In effect, your promoting people to leave the Church.

Laus Deo

I would add this: Descendents of the first Jews who accepted Jesus The Christ, as well as modern Jewish converts to Catholicism are still God’s chosen people.

---

“Look in the mirror, and behold, the work of our Lord’s hand.”

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Jews who become Catholic don’t lose their distinction as Jews.

That would depend entirely on what it means to be a Jew.

“In one tragic instance, the Archbishop of Utrecht was warned by the Nazis not to protest the deportation of Dutch Jews. He spoke out anyway and in retaliation the Catholic Jews of Holland were sent to their death. One of them was the Carmelite philosopher, Edith Stein.”

Edith Stein was a convert.

I doubt if Saint Paul thought he lost his distinction as a Jew. Acts 22:3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers,being zealous for God just as you all are today.”

Simlarly. See Romans 10:12 where he declares no distinction.

Ebionites (Jewish Christians) may have been heretical, but they did not lose their Jewish distinction.

The Ebionites are the closest thing in history to a continuous Jewish Christian community. But was their heresy a happenstance or was it intrinsic to their desire to maintain their Jewish identity? And does the fact that they disappeard from history tell us anything about Jewish Christian communities? Why are there no other examples?

The closest modern parallel are Messianic Jews which is why I mentioned them earlier.

The modern Catholic Church is composed of Jews who are the descendents of the first Jewish Catholics, and modern Jewish converts to Catholicism, and descendents of the first Gentile Catholics, and modern Gentile converts to Catholicism.

No doubt there is Jewish blood, Jewish genes, in the Christian gene pool. But not with any distinction. Jewish converts inevitably assmilate and lose their distinction.

Messianic Jews follow a more Protestant model of Christianity. But could a large community of Catholic Jews maintain their identity over generations? Note what that would entail: minimally, it would require that Jewish Catholic children not marry non-Jewish Catholics which, in turn, would require all the Jewish customs of separation because we all well know that when you throw different people together inter-marrriage is inevitable.