The Church Fathers...

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That’s what I thought.

And it seems that that’s what they thought too judging by their writings.

I’ve just been introduced to some very unordothodox beliefs that they weren’t.

👍
 
The first reference to the Catholic Church was by Ignatius in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans about 100-110 A.D.
 
2ndGen said:
That’s what I thought.

And it seems that that’s what they thought too judging by their writings.

I’ve just been introduced to some very unordothodox beliefs that they weren’t.

👍
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Where [and from whom] do these 'belifs" come from?:rolleyes:
 
YADA said:
Where [and from whom] do these 'belifs" come from?:rolleyes:
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2ndGen was getting frustrated with the debate with the Orthodox so he came here to garner some moral support, The Fathers belonged to the Orthodox Catholic Church. The same church that produced the Nicene Creed and anathematized anyone who would alter that Creed in the Council of Ephesus.
 
Both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Church claim to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by the Apostles.
Rome claims that the other four patriarchates left the Catholic fold and the four patriachates and their daughter churches claim that Rome left the Catholic fold. Let us begin the presentation of evidence.

I submit definition of Faith in the 6 session of the Council of Ephesus.:

Definition of the faith at Nicaea [6th session 22 July 431]
The synod of Nicaea produced this creed: We believe … [the Nicene Creed follows]

It seems fitting that all should assent to this holy creed. It is pious and sufficiently helpful for the whole world. But since some pretend to confess and accept it, while at the same time distorting the force of its expressions to their own opinion and so evading the truth, being sons of error and children of destruction, it has proved necessary to add testimonies from the holy and orthodox fathers that can fill out the meaning they have given to the words and their courage in proclaiming it. All those who have a clear and blameless faith will understand, interpret and proclaim it in this way.

When these documents had been read out, the holy synod decreed the following.
  1. It is not permitted to produce or write or compose any other creed except the one which was defined by the holy fathers who were gathered together in the holy Spirit at Nicaea.
  2. Any who dare to compose or bring forth or produce another creed for the benefit of those who wish to turn from Hellenism or Judaism or some other heresy to the knowledge of the truth, if they are bishops or clerics they should be deprived of their respective charges and if they are laymen they are to be anathematised.
3)In the same way if any should be discovered, whether bishops, clergy or laity, thinking or teaching the views expressed in his statement by the priest Charisius about the incarnation of the only-begotten Son of God or the disgusting, perverted views of Nestorius, which underlie them, these should be subject to the condemnation of this holy and ecumenical synod. A bishop clearly is to be stripped of his bishopric and deposed, a cleric to be deposed from the clergy, and a lay person is to be anathematised, as was said before.

It is clear from the evidence above that when the bishop of Rome added to the Creed, he was was to be dismissed of his office. This concilar declaration included ALL bishops including the bishop of Rome. Sixtus III, bishop of Rome, himself accepted this decree and made no execption to himself or his episcopal successors. This is proof that the Roman Church left the Catholic Church when they unilaterally changed the creed and excommunicated the other four patriarchates for not following suit.
 
VARC said:
2ndGen was getting frustrated with the debate with the Orthodox so he came here to garner some moral support, The Fathers belonged to the Orthodox Catholic Church. The same church that produced the Nicene Creed and anathematized anyone who would alter that Creed in the Council of Ephesus.
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Frustrated…wow. Talk about projection.

Actually, I’ve been having a ton of fun and besides,
I had to post a thread specifically for this topic,
since you refused to respond to me over there.

(And it worked! Here you are! Like a moth to a flame!)

Now, this “not” being and unstructured thread,
you “have to” respond to the topic and can’t dance around the issue anymore.

😃

Where does it state that exactly?

That “The Fathers belonged to the Orthodox Catholic Church”?

Name one Church Father that stated that he was a member of The Orthodox Catholic Church.

Just one.

Matter of fact, one reference of The Orthodox Catholic Church (not the orthodox Catholic Church).

:coffeeread:
 
VARC said:
Both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Church claim to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by the Apostles.
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I don’t see any “Orthodox” Church mentioned there at all. 🤷

Did I miss the word “Orthodox” in your supposed proof?

I think you’re “adding” words to the text there.
 
VARC said:
It is clear from the evidence above that when the bishop of Rome added to the Creed, .
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Is adding so bad?

Ok…then would “adding” the word “Orthodox” to the title of The Church “innovating” the name of The Church?

:hmmm:

Or are you going to say that
"The Catholic Church was always called Orthodox,

but we deleted the term “Catholic” and added the
term “Orthodox”,

but we are The Church that The Church Fathers are referring to

when they say The Catholic Church is the true Church even though

they don’t say The Orthodox Church is the true Church"?

 
bengal_fan said:
the same church all Christians belong to. the universal Christian church. catholic meaning one or universal.
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So then, you agree that The Church that has been historically known been referred to as The Catholic Church is The Church that the Church Fathers belonged to?

👍

Cool beans!
 
VARC said:
The Fathers belonged to the Orthodox Catholic Church.
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Where does it say this?

In a Church document?

Is there a secular historical reference that you can cite?

Or is this the belief of “one” group of Christians that history shows didn’t exist as an organized religion until the 11th century?

:confused:
 
2ndGen said:
I don’t see any “Orthodox” Church mentioned there at all. 🤷

Did I miss the word “Orthodox” in your supposed proof?

I think you’re “adding” words to the text there.
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You must be young.
 
Zenas said:
The first reference to the Catholic Church was by Ignatius in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans about 100-110 A.D.
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Yes.

The successor of St. Peter, at his original See of Antioch (consecrated by St. Peter himself, and knew the rest of the Apostles). The Orthodox Catholic Patriarch Ignatius IV is his precent successor.

The Smyrna Church was transferred to New Smyrna after WWII, and the descendants of Ignatius’ time attend the Orthodox Catholic churches. The city of Smyrna remains attached to Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, first hierarch of the Orthodox Catholic Church.
 
2ndGen said:
Frustrated…wow. Talk about projection.

Actually, I’ve been having a ton of fun and besides,
I had to post a thread specifically for this topic,
since you refused to respond to me over there.

(And it worked! Here you are! Like a moth to a flame!)

Now, this “not” being and unstructured thread,
you “have to” respond to the topic and can’t dance around the issue anymore.

😃

Where does it state that exactly?

That “The Fathers belonged to the Orthodox Catholic Church”?

Name one Church Father that stated that he was a member of The Orthodox Catholic Church.

Just one.

Matter of fact, one reference of The Orthodox Catholic Church (not the orthodox Catholic Church).

:coffeeread:
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Tell us one that says he belonged to the Roman catholic church.

Quite a shell game, 2nd.
 
2ndGen said:
So then, you agree that The Church that has been historically known been referred to as The Catholic Church is The Church that the Church Fathers belonged to?

👍

Cool beans!
Click to expand...
Sooo, do you worship Jupiter? That is the Roman god, no? You are Roman catholic, no? And his chief priest is the pontifex maximus. Who is the present holder of that title? Benedict XVI.

Just because you share a name doesn’t identify you as the same. According to ancient texts, Barabbas was Jesus Barabbas. Could you tell the difference between him and Jesus Christ?

Yes, and those Church Fathers at the 2nd Council who wrote “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church,” didn’t add “Roman,” nor “Petrine.”

The hierarch who presided at the opening of that Council, St. Meletius, successor of St. Peter at Antioch, was at the time condemned and excommunicated by Rome at the time. Rome had appointed another, Paulinus. Paulinus’ line died out, and even your present bishops of Antioch claim successinon to St. Meletius.

St. Gregory, the bishop of Constantinople at the time, was not recognized by Rome.

Flavian and Nectarius, the successors of Meletius and Flavian, were not recognized by Rome. But they remained none the less, and promulgated the Nicene Creed we recite today. Eventually you joined the rest of us, until you decided to change it.

You Ultramontanists are going to have to find other heros.

Of course, the problem is that your popes have recognized all of the above (except Paulinus, I believe) as saints.
 
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