The Church Fathers...

[Gabriel_of_12]

Both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Church claim to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by the Apostles.
Rome claims that the other four patriarchates left the Catholic fold and the four patriachates and their daughter churches claim that Rome left the Catholic fold. Let us begin the presentation of evidence.

I submit definition of Faith in the 6 session of the Council of Ephesus.:

Definition of the faith at Nicaea [6th session 22 July 431]
The synod of Nicaea produced this creed: We believe … [the Nicene Creed follows]

It seems fitting that all should assent to this holy creed. It is pious and sufficiently helpful for the whole world. But since some pretend to confess and accept it, while at the same time distorting the force of its expressions to their own opinion and so evading the truth, being sons of error and children of destruction, it has proved necessary to add testimonies from the holy and orthodox fathers that can fill out the meaning they have given to the words and their courage in proclaiming it. All those who have a clear and blameless faith will understand, interpret and proclaim it in this way.

When these documents had been read out, the holy synod decreed the following.

1. It is not permitted to produce or write or compose any other creed except the one which was defined by the holy fathers who were gathered together in the holy Spirit at Nicaea.
2. Any who dare to compose or bring forth or produce another creed for the benefit of those who wish to turn from Hellenism or Judaism or some other heresy to the knowledge of the truth, if they are bishops or clerics they should be deprived of their respective charges and if they are laymen they are to be anathematised.

3)In the same way if any should be discovered, whether bishops, clergy or laity, thinking or teaching the views expressed in his statement by the priest Charisius about the incarnation of the only-begotten Son of God or the disgusting, perverted views of Nestorius, which underlie them, these should be subject to the condemnation of this holy and ecumenical synod. A bishop clearly is to be stripped of his bishopric and deposed, a cleric to be deposed from the clergy, and a lay person is to be anathematised, as was said before.

It is clear from the evidence above that when the bishop of Rome added to the Creed, he was was to be dismissed of his office. This concilar declaration included ALL bishops including the bishop of Rome.

VARC, What Pope added to the Credo from your statement above I don’t see it? and if he did what was it that your sources tell you that he added to the Credo?

**Sixtus III, bishop of Rome, himself accepted this decree and made no execption to himself or his episcopal successors.

How does a Pope Sixtus III 432-440 a.d Prove any changes made to the Nicene Creed 325 a.d.?

I thought the Orthodox church began in the 11th century? You see where I am getting confused about your individuals and dates?**

This is proof that the Roman Church left the Catholic Church when they unilaterally changed the creed and excommunicated the other four patriarchates for not following suit.

Do you have a date when this Nicene Creed was changed and occurred? and any document I can research why the Orthodox got excommunicated?

asking for clarification? anyone?

 

[Mickey]

Ok.

Quote “one” stating what you profess.

But they were all Church fathers of the (true) (correct) universal faith. What more do you want? Your question has been answered. They were all Orthodox Catholic. It is a fact.

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen;3278705:

Google Roman catholic church. For something that doesn’t exist, it sure has a lot of hits.

I did. I saw no institution proclaiming to be a “Roman catholic church”.

I saw articles on Catholicism, but none on a “Roman catholic church”.

Maybe it was on latter pages.

Do you have a direct source that there is an institution called “Roman catholic church”?

If you do, why don’t you show me the exact book, instead of pointing to a library and saying, “there it is”?

===========================================

Why does The Orthodox Catholic Church ordain women?

(Oh yeah, I Googled “Orthodox Catholic Church” and I got an institution that calls themselves that that ordain women)

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen;3278705:

For something that doesn’t exist, it sure has a lot of hits.

That’s a pretty weak attack.

There are only 4 million hits for “Roman catholic church”.

For “aliens” there are over 51 million.

Do you believe in “aliens” now because of the number of hits?

:hypno:

 

[2ndGen]

But they were all Church fathers of the (true) (correct) universal faith. What more do you want? Your question has been answered. They were all Orthodox Catholic. It is a fact.

So, do you have a quote or not?

First of all, let’s look at the definition as “you” are using them (which is incorrectly):

The Catholic Church is the orthodox Christian faith, not the Orthodox Christian faith.

The Orthodox Church is “not” The Catholic Church.

That might confuse you, but here’s why:

Capitol C Catholic means The Catholic Church.
Small c catholic means the universal Church.

The Church Fathers capitolized the C when describing The Catholic Church.

The Church Fathers were all orthodox Catholics, not Orthodox Catholics.​

Cath·o·lic
–adjective

1. of or pertaining to a Catholic church, esp. the Roman Catholic Church.
2. Theology. a. (among Roman Catholics) claiming to possess exclusively the notes or characteristics of the one, only, true, and universal church having unity, visibility, indefectibility, apostolic succession, universality, and sanctity: used in this sense, with these qualifications, only by the Church of Rome, as applicable only to itself and its adherents and to their faith and organization; often qualified, especially by those not acknowledging these claims, by prefixing the word Roman.
   b. (among Anglo-Catholics) noting or pertaining to the conception of the church as the body representing the ancient undivided Christian witness, comprising all the orthodox churches that have kept the apostolic succession of bishops, and including the Anglican Church, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Church of Sweden, the Old Catholic Church (in the Netherlands and elsewhere), etc.
3. pertaining to the Western Church.
   –noun 4. a member of a Catholic church, esp. of the Roman Catholic Church.

---

cath·o·lic
–adjective

1. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.
2. universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.
3. pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.

---

or·tho·dox /ˈɔrθəˌdɒks/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[awr-thuh-doks] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or conforming to the approved form of any doctrine, philosophy, ideology, etc.
2. of, pertaining to, or conforming to beliefs, attitudes, or modes of conduct that are generally approved.
3. customary or conventional, as a means or method; established.
4. sound or correct in opinion or doctrine, esp. theological or religious doctrine.
5. conforming to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early church.
6. (initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or designating the Eastern Church, esp. the Greek Orthodox Church.
7. (initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Orthodox Jews or Orthodox Judaism.​

That is, unless you can find me a quote that The Church Fathers say that The Church is an Orthodox (Capitol C) Church?

If they were all “Orthodox Catholic” as you say, why is there no such term until the 11th century and why is The Church only mentioned as “Catholic”?

 

[2ndGen]

Do you have a date when this Nicene Creed was changed and occurred? and any document I can research why the Orthodox got excommunicated?

asking for clarification? anyone?

Wait a minute, they were “excommincated”?

They said “we” left “them”.

Be right back…gotta Google!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

…what “Church” did they belong to?

In the beginning from scriptue they belonged to the NEW WAY CHURCH, This New Way Christian Church started with Peter and the Apostles. In scripture Peter is always held as the authority figure, He is the one who has the final say in council.

First century, the successors to the apostles. The Ruling Romans and Jews continued to look to the Bishop of Peter, as one holding the authority to the what is now called the Universal Catholic Church (Christianity). It was the Bishop that they sought to kill in order to stop the Catholic Church from growing. In fact I believe the first 20-30 Popes Bishop of Rome were Martyred. I could be mistaken of the number.

 

[2ndGen]

Hey, we did excommunicate them.

I didn’t know that.

Then, the excommunicatees, tried to excommunicate the excommunicator…if they were excommunicated, by what authority could they excommunicate?

 

[2ndGen]

In the beginning from scriptue they belonged to the NEW WAY CHURCH, This New Way Christian Church started with Peter and the Apostles. In scripture Peter is always held as the authority figure, He is the one who has the final say in council.

First century, the successors to the apostles. The Ruling Romans and Jews continued to look to the Bishop of Peter, as one holding the authority to the what is now called the Universal Catholic Church (Christianity). It was the Bishop that they sought to kill in order to stop the Catholic Church from growing. In fact I believe the first 20-30 Popes Bishop of Rome were Martyred. I could be mistaken of the number.

I’ve heard it called “The Way” and have actually seen a reference in The New Testament where disciples are told to adhere to “the way” as a group.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I’ve heard it called “The Way” and have actually seen a reference in The New Testament where disciples are told to adhere to “the way” as a group.

“The Way” is recorded in scripture. Memory recalls secular Jewish and Roman documents to distinguish Jews from the Jews who were converting to the “New Way” (Christianity)

 

[2ndGen]

“The Way” is recorded in scripture. Memory recalls secular Jewish and Roman documents to distinguish Jews from the Jews who were converting to the “New Way” (Christianity)

Ok, so first we have “The Way”,
then say for about 90 years,
they evolved into The Catholic Church which still exists today.

So for the first 400+ years or so (The Church Fathers Age),
did any of these Church Fathers ever proclaim an allegiance to any other Church other than The Catholic Church?

 

[VARC]

Do you have any place that you could refer me to that would show me that The Catholic Church was called The Orthodox Catholic Church before the 11th Century?

.

I posted this to prove to 2ndGen that the term Orthodox Church was applied to the Catholic church 100s of years before the schism with Rome but I want to post it here for the benefit of those who are new to 2ndGen diatribe. This is from the Catholic encyclopedia…

**How “Orthodox” became the proper name of the Eastern Church it is difficult to say. It was used at first, long before the schism of Photius, especially in the East, not with any idea of opposition against the West, but rather as the antithesis to the Eastern heretics — Nestorians and Monophysites. Gradually, although of course, both East and West always claimed both names, “Catholic” became the most common name for the original Church in the West, “Orthodox” in the East. **

So you see that 2ndGen thinks that fallacious arguments are effective but I know that nobody here is impressed with his argument that: “We are the True Church because we’ve adopted the name Catholic and you’ve adopted the name Orthodox”

Fallacy. Nonsequitor.

 

[VARC]

Hey, we did excommunicate them.

I didn’t know that.

That’s elementary church history. Perhaps you should brush up before you just dive right in.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Who are the “Orthodox Catholic Fathers”?

As posted previously:

St. Meletius of Antioch, St. Gregory Nazianzus, St. Flavian of Antioch, etc.

 

[VARC]

Do you have a date when this Nicene Creed was changed and occurred? and any document I can research why the Orthodox got excommunicated?

asking for clarification? anyone?

The addition of Filioque was orignally perpetrated by the Visigoths in the forth council of Toledo in 636. But the orthodox popes of Rome (especially Pope Leo III) always condemned the addition until 1014. In 1014, Pope Benedict VIII, under pressure from the Germans of the “holy roman” empire, changed the Nicene Creed by adding Filioque to the Creed in Rome. After one generation, in 1054, Rome and rest of the Catholic Church mutually excommunicated each other.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The addition of Filioque was orignally perpetrated by the Visigoths in the forth council of Toledo in 636. But the orthodox popes of Rome (especially Pope Leo III) always condemned the addition until 1014. In 1014, Pope Benedict VIII, under pressure from the Germans of the “holy roman” empire, changed the Nicene Creed by adding Filioque to the Creed in Rome. After one generation, in 1054, Rome and rest of the Catholic Church mutually excommunicated each other.

VARC

I left a post for you on the unstructured thread.

 

[VARC]

More from the Catholic Church on altering the Creed…

The Definition of Faith. 6th Ecumenical Council

(Found in the Acts, Session XVIII., L. and C., Concilia, Tom. VI., col. 1019.)

…These things, therefore, with all diligence and care having been formulated by us, we define that it be permitted to no one to bring forward, or to write, or to compose, or to think, or to teach a different faith. **Whosoever shall presume to compose **a different faith, or to propose, or teach, or hand to those wishing to be converted to the knowledge of the truth, from the Gentiles or Jews, or from any heresy, any different Creed; or to introduce a new voice or invention of speech to subvert these things which now have been determined by us, all these, if they be Bishops or clerics let them be deposed, the Bishops from the Episcopate, the clerics from the clergy; but if they be monks or laymen: let them be anathematized.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Ok, so first we have “The Way”,
then say for about 90 years,
they evolved into The Catholic Church which still exists today.

So for the first 400+ years or so (The Church Fathers Age),
did any of these Church Fathers ever proclaim an allegiance to any other Church other than The Catholic Church?

At this time we have all the church Fathers under the Catholic church for the next 1500 yrs.

The saints during this time wrote about the authority of the Chair of Peter ( the Pope) (WHERE THE BISHOP OF ROME IS, THERE IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Now many schisms broke out among the magestarium and religious, who were excommunicated from teaching in error, some recanted others did not and many of there heretical teachings died out, and have surfaced in and out of history.

** Its important for Christians to learn about the early Church Fathers, because they denounced heretical christian teachings that many ** non Catholic christian churches in the U.S today, are teaching these heretical christian teachings again from the past., that the early Catholic Christian Church denounced.

I dont think there is any doubt or question of the (Catholic) early church Fathers. I believe its what they taught, that today non-Catholic christians dont know. Many are being mislead from the Vine of Truth. Many will find that What the early Church Fathers taught, has not changed today in the Roman Catholic Church.

For Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is the same yesterday, today and forever more.

 

[RAR]

Let’s play it cool here, guys. The Orthodox and RCs are very much in line with one another. I’d hate for someone sincerely investigating the Eucharist and Catholic (both of us) church to be frustrated and confused by some of our bickering. Besides our little “argument” over the Filioque (for example) doesn’t amount to a difference in theology, it’s purely semantic.

Let’s remember we’re one in theology and pray for our coming back together in the very near future. Can you imagine how awesome (truest sense of the word) a truly united Catholic church would be???

God bless!

RAR

 

[2ndGen]

I posted this to prove to 2ndGen that the term Orthodox Church was applied to the Catholic church 100s of years before the schism with Rome but I want to post it here for the benefit of those who are new to 2ndGen diatribe. This is from the Catholic encyclopedia…