L
LaSainte
Guest
Is using a hot tub to lower sperm count ABC? What if you just really like hot-tubbing?
The church finally says ABC is ok!! What would you all think of that??
- Status
B
Bookcat
Guest
If one were to do anything with a contraceptive intent…it would be sinful.
D
Debora123
Guest
I am honestly not trying to convince anyone, and as you can see, I am giving no one any advice or attempting to stray them. I am merely giving my opinion and points of view, just as everyone else. I know many here won’t like it, but that’s ok.
I am not defending anything, just giving my opinion and sharing my point of view.
Mmmm no… that’s your assumption, and quite frankly, it is a false one. You don’t know me or what I’ve been through, so please don’t act as though you do and accuse me of something that isn’t true. If that is the impression you have gotten, then I am sorry for giving you the wrong impression.
Yeah… yeah it really did. I won’t go into detail about it, so I’d rather no one make any rash assumptions.
C
Catholic41506
Guest
If the Church is in error on an infallible doctrine then she is a false prophet, the gates of hell have prevailed against her and Christ was a false prophet as well.Once I made the decision, no, it did not bother me. I truly believe the Church is in error on this issue - or at least that it is not such a black and white thing. I did not come to this conclusion easily, and I hope people won’t judge me too harshly. It took a lot of praying and discerning, and even some talks with my priest. It’s helped our marriage and it’s helped our love making. My conscience is cleared.
If your conscience is clear that your conscience has not been formed properly and your in grave danger. It isn’t being judgemental, but showing concern for a brother/sister in Christ and attempt to bring them into conformity with Church teaching.
C
Catholic41506
Guest
Which shows that the spouse abstains. With condoms their is no abstaining. Condoms are wrong whether you choose to believe that or not, it doesn’t change that fact.
C
Catholic41506
Guest
You will abandon Peter to follow Judas because “your not alone by a long shot?”Lol then I either have a learning disability or I’m just plain stupid.
It’s ok. I’ve finally come to be at peace with my inability to grasp this supposed logical concept. At least I know I’m not alone. Not by a looong shot.
C
Catholic41506
Guest
It does make sense. Either you or your husband or both don’t understand so you choose to ignore it. If I don’t understand a commandment, can I ignore it and do what I want?NFP is open to life more so than something that is more open to life??
Yes, yes, I know that this is what the Church says. I also know it makes absolutely no sense. It’s ok.
C
Catholic41506
Guest
Judas wasn’t alone in his thinking either.
C
Catholic41506
Guest
The majority do, but they choose to ignore it. Self comes before Christ and His Church.
C
Catholic41506
Guest
You choose to talk in circles. Church teaching is clear and you ignore it. That means you are wrong. Those who like sin generally try to talk circles around Church teaching to prove their point and also try convincing others they are right.Wow, this discussion is all about word games! The key is in the wording used, lol
Seems like this thread is going in circles, as these discussions usually do.
God bless you all. It’s been fun.
C
Catholic41506
Guest
How about this question; What would you do if God said that ABC is wrong? Would you obey or ignore God’s command because you know better?
God has spoken through His Church.
God has spoken through His Church.
P
PatriceA
Guest
As you said, a perforated condom is approaved to collect a sperm sample, for medical testing only. Its not approved for normal sexual activity. Its only approved in special circumstances, to uncover a underlying medical problem in infertility in couples. The condom is no longer being used as ABC in this situation.
P
PatriceA
Guest
Wow Catholic41506, you’re on fire!
C
Calliso
Guest
I am sure if those who disagree with the Churchs teaching on contraception/sex actually heard from God that the Church was right they would obey. I think the problem is for some people simply the Church says so isnt a good enough argument and they just donlt understand the other arguments. The church isn;t actually God so it could be in error. I think some people just need to understand and see the logical reasoning behind a teaching before they accept it.
C
Corki
Guest
Because Jesus gave the Church the power to loose and bind. We are to give obedience to all lawful authority uness it is ordering us to sin.
This is the whole Gallileo story. He was ultimately proven to be “sort of” right about geocentrism. Not completely, but more right than the prevailing theories at the time, including the one held by the Church. His sin, for which he was punished by the Church, was disobeying an order not to publish his theory. Had he obeyed, he would not have been sinning.
Now if someone in the Church tells you to do something that is sinful, you can disobey. But otherwise, as Catholics, we owe assent to the Church, even for things we don’t yet believe.
C
Corki
Guest
If you use the hot tub even knowing it might lower sperm count but you really like hot tubbing, nothing wrong with that. Same thing for wearing tighty whities or becoming a marathon runner (women). If you did any of those things** as an attempt **to reduce your fertility, you might have a sin. It wouldn’t be the same sin as contraception, however. It would possibly be a sin in the same category as denying your spouse. Best to discuss that one with your confessor.
T
TimothyH
Guest
In my life, the root cause of disagreement with the Church and disobedience to her teaching was always self love. I simply loved myself too much.
Only after I came to understand who Christ really was, and who I was in comparison, did I start loving Christ more than myself. Only then was I willing to suffter through the anxiety which comes with the consequences of obedience - like what would happen if I had more children than I thought I could handle, or what would happen if I actually gave a sizable check to the Church each Sunday instead of a five dollar bill here and there. Only then was I willing to do what was required to please God instead of pleasing myself.
Every time I have stepped out of my own self-love, my own desire for certain lifestyles or certain behaviors, and stepped into obedience to the truth, there was great reward. And so slowly, over time, I have come to trust God, and have learned to be humble - not as much as I want but it is a start. Trust is the issue. I love God, but more importantly, I **trust ** him.
There is great grace in obedience to Christ’s Church. But I think too many people focus on the rules and obedience instead of trust. I understand how hard it is to overcome self love and learn to trust God.
Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart. (1 Peter 1:22)
Most people arn’t familiar with that verse. But it is something we are all called to do. Obedience purifies us. It teaches us to trust God. We cannot love one another until we are purified and learn to trust God. And so yes, the rules are there, but they are only there so that we can learn to trust God, so that we can be under grace instead of under the law.
Trust and self-love are the root cause issues.
-Tim-
Only after I came to understand who Christ really was, and who I was in comparison, did I start loving Christ more than myself. Only then was I willing to suffter through the anxiety which comes with the consequences of obedience - like what would happen if I had more children than I thought I could handle, or what would happen if I actually gave a sizable check to the Church each Sunday instead of a five dollar bill here and there. Only then was I willing to do what was required to please God instead of pleasing myself.
Every time I have stepped out of my own self-love, my own desire for certain lifestyles or certain behaviors, and stepped into obedience to the truth, there was great reward. And so slowly, over time, I have come to trust God, and have learned to be humble - not as much as I want but it is a start. Trust is the issue. I love God, but more importantly, I **trust ** him.
There is great grace in obedience to Christ’s Church. But I think too many people focus on the rules and obedience instead of trust. I understand how hard it is to overcome self love and learn to trust God.
Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart. (1 Peter 1:22)
Most people arn’t familiar with that verse. But it is something we are all called to do. Obedience purifies us. It teaches us to trust God. We cannot love one another until we are purified and learn to trust God. And so yes, the rules are there, but they are only there so that we can learn to trust God, so that we can be under grace instead of under the law.
Trust and self-love are the root cause issues.
-Tim-
C
Corki
Guest
Exactly! As I said earlier, if the Church is in error on the teaching about contraception, she is also fallible about the rest of her teaching on marriage since the teaching on contraception is part of that whole. IVF, cloning, polygamy, homosexuality, etc. would all be “on the table” as well as the teaching on the indissolvubilty of marriage itself. Without the Sacraments, including Marriage, there would be no Church.
L
LaSainte
Guest
I don’t get this because even Humanae Vitae admits that couples who use NFP and ABC may very well have the same intent. The intent is to reduce the chances that one will conceive a child in both cases.
C
Calliso
Guest
Agreed I mean if that is the case how exactly is NFP not sinful then? I mean I get the feeling that for those that have trouble understanding the reasoning behind the Church teachings on sex that if NFP wasn;t in the equation things would be perhaps a little clearer. But to me at least NFP seems like a pretty big bending of the rules. I mean how is using NFP to avoid not having a contraceptive mindset? I mean if your carefully charting and observing your signs and making sure you are only having sex on your most infertile of times how exactly is that anymore open to life then other forms of birthcontrol like a condom?
- Status