The church finally says ABC is ok!! What would you all think of that??

[Bookcat]

(bump)

Lets speak of some fictional persons…but use a different moral issue (though still a grave matter like Contraception) Sometimes this helps …and though they are fictional…and hopefully more far fetched then real (though given our world it is possible) …I hope they will help.

Leo and Sally are married…they are engaged in adultery with others…and are very unhappy. They have a conversion …and repent of their deeds and set out to follow Christ faithfully and to be faithful to each other. The find this really also helps their marriage. And they find that they have new life in him here…and look forward to being with him…happy they are not longer living in a way that would send them to hell but are following he who is life. Many like couples experience the same and objectively they are doing good.

Sam and Sue are married. Their marriage is troubled. They are always fighting about Sam’s unhappiness about Sue not want sexual relations so often. They are terribly unhappy. Sam prays about it…and decides that God will understand if he finds a companion on the side for the sake of his family…heck men have done so in all ages. Sam decides to have an affair on the side. The fighting practically goes away entirely…the affair continues for years and years…and they report their marriage is now happy. Sam in a discussion with a friend with similar problems…suggests he get a girl on the side…for this has saved their marriage and they are now happy…and he is not bothered by his conscience cause he knows this is bringing them peace. Sam is not even bothered when he goes to Church each week with his happy family…thinking God will understand my situation…I had to save my family…

So it can be said that some find that adultery is helpful to their marital happiness…

Does that make it “good”?

No.

Can there be spiritual consequences to such…yes …of the most grave kind.

The ends do not justify the means.

Adultery and other gravely evil proposals are always and everywhere evil …they are contrary to God…and even if someone experiences some “temporal” happiness or even says their conscience is ok with it…does not make it good or ok. Some have deadened in fact their conscience…for they get used to doing such…many do not see the truth due to their emotions or even their will …they just think “this will help my marriage”…or “this is good for such and such”…“I need to do such and such otherwise such and such will happen”…

It is the age old thing that the Bible talks about…the choosing of some temporal or “apparent” happiness…over God and true happiness…true life.

Now is it possible that they have a really erroneious conscience that God will take into account?..it is possible…is it possible for some other things to reduce the culpability?..yes it is…but I would not count on either…for often we can be at least guilty along the way in getting there… and these are very dangerous waters…to say the least…and we have a duty to correct a conscience in error…

Many rationalize things away…and think in terms of the temporal good…“this helps my marriage” …“I need to do what the Church thinks is wrong but it is the Church that is wrong” (misunderstanding the nature of the Church and her authority etc)…or “If I do not do X …Y will happen and Y will be bad for me or for my family”…etc…

Jesus is very clear though: what does it profit for a man to gain the whole world…and loose his soul…? ( see Mark 8:36)

 

[paddy22]

Specifically this paragraph:

‘Harsh word use aside, it’s hard to hear a fellow Catholic like yourself proclaim often on CAF that you use condoms and that our Church is “in error” for prohibiting them because they frustrate the objective procreative nature of the marital act. If you have prayed over the matter and determined that condom use was God’s will for you, then you can conclude with complete confidence that those thoughts come from the serpent below, not God. As you know, we Catholics, unlike Protestants, don’t rely on good feelings and “God told me so” thoughts alone when determining how to proceed with moral actions. We do have actual graces that can come to us from God, but when we conclude that we should use condoms as a result of prayer and meditation, then that thought, feeling, or emotion most definitely DOES NOT come from God. We know that because use of condoms directly contradicts the Church’s teaching magisterium.’

Do you really believe that you are in the right, and the Church is in error? And what did vsedriver assume?

 

[Debora123]

You’ve got to try pretty hard to turn his words around to justify the morality of condom use. What about the first part of his response: ‘She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution…’ What does that mean to you?

I never said it ultimately justified all condom use, per se. I only said it definitely is far from saying condoms are intrinsically evil. That is all.

 

[Bookcat]

I never said it ultimately justified all condom use, per se. I only said it definitely is far from saying condoms are intrinsically evil. That is all.

Again read the document from Holy See on the matter…your understanding is not correct.

As for intrinsically evil…the Church (and the Pope of course!) teaches that contraception is:

“The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life” Vademecum for Confessors 2:4)

Though I hear for example there are various non-contraceptive uses…for the sheath

 

[Veritas41]

No way – the Church teaches that contraception is an *intrinsic evil, *and there is no way an intrinsic evil can ever turn into something good and acceptable.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

ASSUME…

definition - to make an “A*s” out of “U” and “ME.”

I thought the Church was in error long BEFORE I switched to condoms. Before I was even engaged. And during that time I full heartedly intended on using NFP, and thus invested much time and money on the method.

Moral of the story? Please don’t make false judgements and accusations.

I have a question for you…please don’t answer here just think about it personally.

When Pope Paul sat down to compose Humanae Vitae do you think he prayed, was in a state of grace, and close to the sacraments? I am pretty sure that he was, because as the Vicar of Christ, the Pope the Holy Spirit guides him.

Now, you state that you’ve done the same thing, prayed etc to get an answer from God. He gave you a different answer? Why would He confuse us that way? His Vicar gets one answer, a young newlywed gets another.

How could that be?

I mean this in gentleness, because I care. Think about it.

 

[Debora123]

ok, I’m the one who said delusional but I didn’t call you delusional. I said what you posted was delusional. Big difference.

Corki, your post #294:

If you believe you are doing nothing wrong, you are delusional.

It’s ok though, I am not angry or offended. I just called people out on it, that’s all. And I did so because it is rude, uncharitable, and against forum rules. I won’t report you though, so no worries.

 

[Debora123]

Yes, bad people go to heaven all the time. They repent, confess and ammend their lives before they die.

Absolutely! They repent, confess and ammend their lives. They become good. No one walks into heaven as a bad person. :getholy:

 

[jessiepie]

He created out bodies. WE create the space. The “barrier.”

And we do so by purposely not making love to our spouses when their bodies or not convenient for us. AKA, fertile.

I think what you’re missing is that NFP is only to be used in GRAVE circumstances, not just because you don’t “feel like” becoming a parent. One of the main purposes of the vocation of marriage is to create and raise children. Maybe the fact that you cannot understand this moral theology is God telling you that you are not yet ready for the vocation of marriage. Marriage = babies. Not ready for babies? DON’T GET MARRIED!****

 

[Debora123]

Specifically this paragraph:

‘Harsh word use aside, it’s hard to hear a fellow Catholic like yourself proclaim often on CAF that you use condoms and that our Church is “in error” for prohibiting them because they frustrate the objective procreative nature of the marital act. If you have prayed over the matter and determined that condom use was God’s will for you, then you can conclude with complete confidence that those thoughts come from the serpent below, not God. As you know, we Catholics, unlike Protestants, don’t rely on good feelings and “God told me so” thoughts alone when determining how to proceed with moral actions. We do have actual graces that can come to us from God, but when we conclude that we should use condoms as a result of prayer and meditation, then that thought, feeling, or emotion most definitely DOES NOT come from God. We know that because use of condoms directly contradicts the Church’s teaching magisterium.’

Do you really believe that you are in the right, and the Church is in error? And what did vsedriver assume?

Yes, I truly believe that.

Driver assumed I only believe the Church is in error so that I can justify my position.

 

[Debora123]

I think what you’re missing is that NFP is only to be used in GRAVE circumstances, not just because you don’t “feel like” becoming a parent. One of the main purposes of the vocation of marriage is to create and raise children. Maybe the fact that you cannot understand this moral theology is God telling you that you are not yet ready for the vocation of marriage. Marriage = babies. Not ready for babies? DON’T GET MARRIED!****

No, I understand that we should only avoid pregnancy for grave reasons. I will absolutely only avoid pregnancy for grave reasons. I am excited about being a stay at home mom and feel it is my calling in life.

It irks me a little bit when random people on this forum tell me I shouldn’t have gotten married because I have grave reasons for not becoming pregnant in the first year of our marriage.

No problem though. I’ll just say a quick prayer and let it pass by me without allowing it to cause distress.

God bless you.

 

[Debora123]

Debora,

I realize some on CAF can sound harsh and uncharitable and I realize you’re sensitive to that, and to which I can appreciate. There are certainly better ways to state the Church’s teachings than some have done here. However, after reading through this thread, I think there are many good Catholics (those of us who are striving to follow all the teachings of our Catholic faith, including the difficult commandments) who are probably frustrated with your open acceptance of condoms, though it’s clear to you and to us through numerous Church teachings, that contraceptive use – including condoms – is serious matter and gravely opposed to our Church’s teaching.

Harsh word use aside, it’s hard to hear a fellow Catholic like yourself proclaim often on CAF that you use condoms and that our Church is “in error” for prohibiting them because they frustrate the objective procreative nature of the marital act. If you have prayed over the matter and determined that condom use was God’s will for you, then you can conclude with complete confidence that those thoughts come from the serpent below, not God. As you know, we Catholics, unlike Protestants, don’t rely on good feelings and “God told me so” thoughts alone when determining how to proceed with moral actions. We do have actual graces that can come to us from God, but when we conclude that we should use condoms as a result of prayer and meditation, then that thought, feeling, or emotion most definitely DOES NOT come from God. We know that because use of condoms directly contradicts the Church’s teaching magisterium.

It is a given that God will judge each of us fairly because He is All-Just. But He established a Church that upholds his ten commandments that He expects us to follow, whether it be inconvenient, harsh, or seemingly unreasonable to us. It comes across in some of your posts (paraphrasing here) “God will understand my condom use because he knows my heart and my particular situation.” True, he knows both, but he has also commanded us to do certain actions (attend Mass on Sunday) and avoid certain actions (use of contraception, including condoms) through his Church. We’re expected to follow those commandments in order to arrive at our final heavenly destination. He wants our hearts and actions to conform to his Will.

Cheesehead, (haha, cheesehead??)

You have always been very kind to me. I remember our PM conversations a few months ago and you really reached out to me.

I know for a fact that you are being genuine with your intention, and that you truly care. I appreciate that very much.

It is nice knowing that I have people like you who I can reach out to for guidance if I ever feel God is calling me to change my views on contraception. I thank you very much for that, as it means a lot to me. God bless, brother. :hug3:

 

[Bookcat]

No, I understand that we should only avoid pregnancy for grave reasons. I will absolutely only avoid pregnancy for grave reasons. I am excited about being a stay at home mom and feel it is my calling in life.

Again…the ends do not justify the means. No grave reason can do so…and it is in fact not even marital intercourse…

Catechism:

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

 

[Debora123]

Again…the ends do not justify the means. No grave reason can do so…and it is in fact not even marital intercourse…

I understand the teaching. My response was to the person who accused me of avoiding pregnancy because I “don’t feel like being a parent.”

Which couldn’t be farther from the truth.

 

[Corki]

Absolutely! They repent, confess and ammend their lives. They become good. No one walks into heaven as a bad person. :getholy:

They may or may not have a chance to become good depending on how close to death they make that confession. They enter heaven a forgiven person.

vsedriver was saying that you can’t be a good person and continue to sin. It’s not a scale where as long as you are more good than bad, you get into heaven.

Yes, I truly believe that.

Driver assumed I only believe the Church is in error so that I can justify my position.

It doens’t matter if you believe the Church is in error or not. It matters how you act. You can assent or disobey. Assenting to Church authority will never be sinful unless someone is ordering you to do something that is sinful (not the case here). Disobeying Church authority will always be sinful unless someone is ordering you to do something sinful.

 

[Debora123]

They may or may not have a chance to become good depending on how close to death they make that confession. They enter heaven a forgiven person.

vsedriver was saying that you can’t be a good person and continue to sin. It’s not a scale where as long as you are more good than bad, you get into heaven.

Well, however it is you want to word it is fine. But I think we both agree on the same thing, so no need to argue it any further.

 

[Debora123]

It doens’t matter if you believe the Church is in error or not. It matters how you act. You can assent or disobey. Assenting to Church authority will never be sinful unless someone is ordering you to do something that is sinful (not the case here). Disobeying Church authority will always be sinful unless someone is ordering you to do something sinful.

I understand the above concept.

But the truth is, I disagree on the issue of contraception being such a black and white, intrinsic evil.

 

[Debora123]

Genisis, 38 it both mentions it and condems it.

Genesis 38 says nothing of the sort.

 

[Corki]

I understand the above concept.

But the truth is, I disagree on the issue of contraception being such a black and white, intrinsic evil.

Something doesn’t have to be evil to be wrong. For a non-sexual example, a precept of the Church is to receive Communion at least once a year during the Easter season. If you think that rule is silly and you receive your once-a-year Communion in the middle of Advent, you still incur the sin of disobedience. Receiving Communion in Advent isn’t evil. Skipping Communion on any given day during the Easter season isn’t evil. Disobeying is the sin.

You either believe that the Church has the authority to teach or not.

 

[Debora123]

Something doesn’t have to be evil to be wrong. For a non-sexual example, a precept of the Church is to receive Communion at least once a year during the Easter season. If you think that rule is silly and you receive your once-a-year Communion in the middle of Advent, you still incur the sin of disobedience. Receiving Communion in Advent isn’t evil. Skipping Communion on any given day during the Easter season isn’t evil. Disobeying is the sin.

You either believe that the Church has the authority to teach or not.

Evil… a sin… whatever you want to call it lol. Either way, you know where I stand.