The Church has got to be kidding on this one, right?

[Pug]

snoopy:

If a woman’s uterus is in danger of rupturing, then it is worn out. If it is worn out then she should have a hysterectomy. I can see no sin there. Good grief, if a woman’s appendix is ready to rupture, then it should be removed also. No one will dispute removal of an appendix, why should the uterus be any different.

No one disputes the removal of a uterus that poses a danger to the woman by its very presence, it has cancer, is shredded and thus bleeding unstoppably, etc. The issue is more when the uterus is perfectly safe to leave in the woman, but it would be risky to pursue pregnancy again. The Church would have you leave it in then, when it poses no medical danger by its presence.

Please see the vatican site here.

 

[Linnyo]

kage_ar:

Linnyo

Please respond to post # 11 regarding your claim that it is a sin to abstain in marriage.

Where does it say in the bible that Mary was ever virgin?? Or for that matter, sinless?? I’m not in a position to presume that I am certain of the answer to either.

 

[Linnyo]

Pug:

No one disputes the removal of a uterus that poses a danger to the woman by its very presence, it has cancer, is shredded and thus bleeding unstoppably, etc. The issue is more when the uterus is perfectly safe to leave in the woman, but it would be risky to pursue pregnancy again. The Church would have you leave it in then, when it poses no medical danger by its presence.

Please see the vatican site here.

That’s the whole point of this debate!

 

[kage_ar]

Linnyo:

Where does it say in the bible that Mary was ever virgin?? Or for that matter, sinless?? I’m not in a position to presume that I am certain of the answer to either.

Sorry, I thought you were Catholic.

 

[Pug]

Linnyo:

That’s the whole point of this debate!

Yes, perhaps I misunderstood! I do that often.

I posted what I did because snoopy compared it to an appendix about to burst, which is a current danger to the person, hence my discussion of a uterus that is a current danger, rather than one that is just fine if left alone. Presumably the appendix will not be just fine if left alone. I agree with snoopy in the case when the uterus can’t be left alone.

 

[Linnyo]

kage_ar:

Sorry, I thought you were Catholic.

I am. I just have a head full of reason and logic!

 

[kage_ar]

Linnyo:

I am. I just have a head full of reason and logic!

Well, may the Holy Mother of God pray for you.

When reading the CCC, you might want to underline:

“2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”"

 

[Linnyo]

kage_ar:

Well, may the Holy Mother of God pray for you.

When reading the CCC, you might want to underline:

“2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”"

I hope this wasn’t posted in sarcasm!

 

[kage_ar]

Linnyo:

I hope this wasn’t posted in sarcasm!

No, it was a real concern. To deny the Perpetual Virginity is to deny our Faith. That calls for real prayer.

Now, I’m done, this is turning into a hijack.

 

[rlg94086]

Another good resource is Webster’s Dictionary:

Main Entry: 2cafeteria
Function: adjective
: providing a selection from which a choice may be made <cafeteria benefit plan> <a cafeteria curriculum>

kage_ar:

Well, may the Holy Mother of God pray for you.

When reading the CCC, you might want to underline:

“2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”"

 

[maryj]

Linnyo:

I am. I just have a head full of reason and logic!

As Father Corrappi would say. If you do not believe in the doctines of the Catholic church, you are a heretic and therefore immediately excommunicated from the body of the church, thus meaning you are not Catholic. I am not stating this in Judgement just letting you know the TRUE ruling of the Catholic church, agree or not. I’m fairly certain someone knows where in the Catechism this can be found. You do know what the Catechism is ?

 

[Linnyo]

maryj:

As Father Corrappi would say. If you do not believe in the doctines of the Catholic church, you are a heretic and therefore immediately excommunicated from the body of the church, thus meaning you are not Catholic. I am not stating this in Judgement just letting you know the TRUE ruling of the Catholic church, agree or not. I’m fairly certain someone knows where in the Catechism this can be found. You do know what the Catechism is ?

Is that the book between Matthew and Mark?
If you read my post it said that I had a head full of reason and logic. I didn’t deny the church. I question everything and that would only be a fault if it led me away from God.

 

[Linnyo]

kage_ar:

No, it was a real concern. To deny the Perpetual Virginity is to deny our Faith. That calls for real prayer.

Now, I’m done, this is turning into a hijack.

I didn’t deny it, I questioned it and said I wasn’t sure. There is a huge difference.

 

[Pug]

Linnyo:

I didn’t deny it, I questioned it and said I wasn’t sure. There is a huge difference.

Can you clarify? Are you saying that you do not know whether or not the perpetual viginity of Mary is true? So if I asked if you think it is true, you would say, “No, I don’t think that. I am unsure. It could be true or it could be false. I just don’t know.”

Or instead are you saying that you do think it is true, but you don’t happen to know where to find the doctrine in the bible? What are you saying you are unsure of?

 

[Studens]

Pug:

No one disputes the removal of a uterus that poses a danger to the woman by its very presence, it has cancer, is shredded and thus bleeding unstoppably, etc. The issue is more when the uterus is perfectly safe to leave in the woman, but it would be risky to pursue pregnancy again. The Church would have you leave it in then, when it poses no medical danger by its presence.

Please see the vatican site here.

So in the event of such a horrible condition, is it a sin for a married woman who has had a morally acceptable hysterectomy to later have sexual intercourse with her husband? Let’s assume that neither of them is opposed to having children and each of them would eagerly welcome a miraculous birth if the Lord so chose to bless them. But let’s also assume that they are convinced that no such miracle will occur. Is it sinful for them to participate in the conjugal act?

 

[rlg94086]

I’m not sure where all this confusion comes from. Participation in the conjugal act within a marriage does not require fertility, just being open to fertility. Here’s some of the Catechism:

V. THE GOODS AND REQUIREMENTS OF CONJUGAL LOVE
[1643](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1643.htm’) "Conjugal love involves a totality, in which all the elements of the person enter - appeal of the body and instinct, power of feeling and affectivity, aspiration of the spirit and of will. It aims at a deeply personal unity, a unity that, beyond union in one flesh, leads to forming one heart and soul; it demands *indissolubility *and *faithfulness *in definitive mutual giving; and it is open to fertility. In a word it is a question of the normal characteristics of all natural conjugal love, but with a new significance which not only purifies and strengthens them, but raises them to the extent of making them the expression of specifically Christian values."152

Here’s what it means to be “open to fertility”:

[*](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1652a.htm’) The openness to fertility

[1652](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1652.htm’) "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."162

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.163

[1653](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1653.htm’) The fruitfulness of conjugal love extends to the fruits of the moral, spiritual, and supernatural life that parents hand on to their children by education. Parents are the principal and first educators of their children.164 In this sense the fundamental task of marriage and family is to be at the service of life.165 1654 ***Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life full of meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice. ***

Therefore, it is sinful to stop fertility by artificial means, but it isn’t a sin to have sex if you are not fertile. Hope that clears it up.

Studens:

So in the event of such a horrible condition, is it a sin for a married woman who has had a morally acceptable hysterectomy to later have sexual intercourse with her husband? Let’s assume that neither of them is opposed to having children and each of them would eagerly welcome a miraculous birth if the Lord so chose to bless them. But let’s also assume that they are convinced that no such miracle will occur. Is it sinful for them to participate in the conjugal act?

 

[Pug]

Studens:

So in the event of such a horrible condition, is it a sin for a married woman who has had a morally acceptable hysterectomy to later have sexual intercourse with her husband?

According to Catholic teaching, a sterile couple may have relations with eachother. It is not a sin. Elderly couples may have relations, women who lost their wombs to cancer may have relations, etc. Sterility by itself is not an impediment to getting married. The Church will marry people who are sterile.

 

[slyboots]

Pug:

No one disputes the removal of a uterus that poses a danger to the woman by its very presence, it has cancer, is shredded and thus bleeding unstoppably, etc. The issue is more when the uterus is perfectly safe to leave in the woman, but it would be risky to pursue pregnancy again. The Church would have you leave it in then, when it poses no medical danger by its presence.

Please see the vatican site here.

Thank you for posting the Vatican site. Sometimes people are uninformed on this topic and are judgmental. At 41 I was one of the women for whom hysterectomy was a medical necessity. It had nothing to do with contraception. It saved my life. My GYN is a practicing Catholic. And a great doctor.

 

[Studens]

rlg94086 & Pug, thank you very much for your responses. That’s very good to know.

 

[jack_roscoe]

Great discussion. In the final analysis, as Catholics we are required to form our conscience based upon the teachings of our church. All of her teachings combined with scripture and tradition.

When making the decision to use birth control (not NFP), a person must use their rightly formed conscience to decide. No sin is committed if this is followed. If the woman, for example, in a marriage is convinced that having another child will end their marriage and her husband will not use NFP, she may decide to use birth control without sinning. For Catholics, a rightly formed conscience is the final arbiter for which we will be held accountable.