The Church is dying and will die

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Wormwood:
Original poster…sorry. 😉
original players, optimistic pessimists, and O.P.P. should also listen up though.
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How about outgoing platypuses? Occasional psychologists? Orange people? 😛
 
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salival:
Really? Then why do we see this happening everywhere?

Why do we see it’s message being repudiated and ignored? It is only growing in those less developped countries. But that is just because those countries have not reached the same stage as Europe and USA, hell it is starting to die in South America already. Just as the country gets more technologically advanced and gains more knowledge and as science advances Catholicism is eroded, withers and dies. The example is clear in those two countries and in Canada as well.

It is as if knowledge destroys Catholciism.
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Oh no! Not the Church’s message being repudiated and ignored! 'Cause Jesus said that would never happen, and we’d always be popular! Oh, wait, no he didn’t. In fact, he seemed to hint that it would be hard to be a Christian and that there would be times when everyone else thought we were nuts and turned away. He also said that the Church would endure all of this, because it is He who sustains us. You really think that God isn’t more powerful than secularism? It is your faith that is dying, not Christ’s Church.
 
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salival:
Well, this topic sure got active. But most of the responses you all have posted, are based on the promise that Jesus said that The Church would not die. But how can you be sure of this if everything around you says other wise?
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In 312 AD a Roman General called Constantine fought his way into Rome and became Emperor, and Christianity became the official religion of the Empire. On 4th September 476 Rome fell to the invading barbarians, the Roman Empire was finished and we entered what are called the “Dark Ages”. But in fact it had been collapsing internally from corruption well before that and the descent into barbarism took Christianity (in Europe) down with it.

But God had things in hand.

Four years after the fall of Rome, St. Benedict was born, and by the time he died in 543 he had founded 12 monasteries and written his rule which became the basis not only for the Benedictines, but for many other monastic orders that spread throughout Europe. The re-Christianisation of Europe had begun. By the 14th century there were 15,000 Benedictine monasteries in Europe

In 597, 54 years after Benedict’s death, St. Augustine (a Benedictine) landed in England to start re-Christianising England from the south.

Why this history lesson? Well if we had been living in Benedict’s time it would have been looking pretty grim, and if we had only been looking upwards we might be thinking that the Church was dying. But as in St. Benedict’s time we need to look sideways. What do I mean by that?

Well the re-Christianisation of Europe came basically not from the Institutional Church, which was weakened by internal fighting from various heresies, not from the top down, but from a new thing that God was doing in the rise of monasticism. At that time you needed not to look up, at the hierarchy, but sideways where new things were happening. I don’t mean that the hierarchy was irrelevant. It was Pope Gregory the Great (himself a Benedictine) who sent St. Augustine, a Benedictine monk, to England, but it was the new monastic communities that were the power houses of that re-Christianisation.

And so in our own time we need to look sideways at what God is doing to see the light shining in the darkness. Not that I am ignoring the hierarchy. I see the name that Cardinal Ratzinger chose on becoming Pope, that of Benedict, to be very significant.

I can’t speak for the USA but here in Europe, and in England, despite the darkness I do see the Spirit moving. If I look up I see fewer priests, ageing priests, sexual scandals, shrinking congregations, closing parishes, and so on

But if I look sideways there are new things happening. In France particularly, since Vatican II, there have been new (charismatic) communities of lay people forming – for example the Beatitudes and Community Emmanuel which have spread from there around the world. These, and similar lay communities, are a source of at least half of the vocations in France. Here in England such communities are struggling, but I know of several. There are residential and non-residential communities. There are prayer groups, Lexio Divina groups, Bible study groups etc. all groups of people who come together regularly in communities of fellowship for worship and study. These are the new monasteries where faith is growing and spreading from.

And there are events that are growing and spreading, like Charismatic Conferences, Days of Renewal, Healing Masses. A few years ago the Good News magazine (the Magazine of Charismatic Renewal for England and Wales) hardly filled two pages in the Events section. Now it fills five.

So look sideways and you will see the Church alive and growing. The Church is not dying, but is changing.
 
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salival:
It is true. You just have to look around to see it. Churches closing everywhere, lack of priest, immorality of the priesthood, lack of unity within the hierarchy, no condemnation of errors and heresies, incredible decline in attendence and memberships, legalization of homosexual marriage, legalization of abortion, eutanasia, etc.

The plague of modernism has taken The Church by storm and while The Church has dealt with previous heresies and has survided them. This time around it is The Church that won’t survive.

A crucial factor is going to be the separation of Church and State, back then, The Church had the state to support it, but now it doesn’t, so it is more vulnerable and it is showing, she now can’t supress heresies or silence attacks against it. She can’t ban books or burn them, but people are free to publish anything they want about The Church even lies about it like the Da Vinci Code. Anybody now mocks and ridicules, questions the Pope. No less than 100 years ago, the Pope was respected and so were priests. But now, they are seen as corrupt people and the pope as a dinosour.

It won’t belong till it happen. Islam is also going to take over and conquer finally Catholicism after so many attemps, and then Catholicism will wither and die.

The conflic will then be between Islam and Modernism, that will bring some pain ot the world.
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There are indications in the prophecies of the saints of the Church that after some really dark days our Church will boom, and rule hearts woirldwide. I believe that those days are near.
 
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salival:
It is true. You just have to look around to see it. Churches closing everywhere, lack of priest, immorality of the priesthood, lack of unity within the hierarchy, no condemnation of errors and heresies, incredible decline in attendence and memberships, legalization of homosexual marriage, legalization of abortion, eutanasia, etc.

The plague of modernism has taken The Church by storm and while The Church has dealt with previous heresies and has survided them. This time around it is The Church that won’t survive.

A crucial factor is going to be the separation of Church and State, back then, The Church had the state to support it, but now it doesn’t, so it is more vulnerable and it is showing, she now can’t supress heresies or silence attacks against it. She can’t ban books or burn them, but people are free to publish anything they want about The Church even lies about it like the Da Vinci Code. Anybody now mocks and ridicules, questions the Pope. No less than 100 years ago, the Pope was respected and so were priests. But now, they are seen as corrupt people and the pope as a dinosour.

It won’t belong till it happen. Islam is also going to take over and conquer finally Catholicism after so many attemps, and then Catholicism will wither and die.

The conflic will then be between Islam and Modernism, that will bring some pain ot the world.
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Well, Christ promised to remain with His Church until the end of time, so presumably, Salival, whenever His Church comes to its final end, you Salival, will come to your final end, as time will also have come to its final end. 👍
 
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MariaGorettiGrl:
How about outgoing platypuses? Occasional psychologists? Orange people? 😛
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Not to mention Oriental pachyderms, olfactory phenomena, and other problems ##
 
You have to be crazy to think that the church will ever die. Christ won’t let that happen.

Don’t you know that the more you persecute Catholics the stronger their faith becomes?

The modernists won’t ever be able to change the church with their social marketing. That is why they hate us so much. When they realize this they will become more confrontational and even physical.

Regardless, the catholic church has survived far worse problems then anything the modernists can throw at us. Compared to the Roman Empire these modernists are a joke. What are they going to do throw us to the lions?

I do agree with one poster that technology is putting a stake right through the heart of all media. It won’t be long and we won’t have to watch TV any more. Everything will be on demand and integrated into the internet. The stuff we read and the shows that we watch won’t be controlled.
 
The church will never die but I think Salival might have…

We haven’t heard his view lately…
 
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salival:
Really? Then why do we see this happening everywhere?

Why do we see it’s message being repudiated and ignored? It is only growing in those less developped countries. But that is just because those countries have not reached the same stage as Europe and USA, hell it is starting to die in South America already. Just as the country gets more technologically advanced and gains more knowledge and as science advances Catholicism is eroded, withers and dies. The example is clear in those two countries and in Canada as well.

It is as if knowledge destroys Catholciism.
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It is not “WE” seeing anything. It is “YOU” and some others.

I am a scientist, studied biology and veterinary medicine in college. I find no contradictions between God, Catholicism, Creation and scientific evidence. John Paul II himself has stated that evolution is an accepted scientific fact. Evolution would be ONE mechanism at work in the Creation.

At the risk of offending you, you sound depressed to me. I know because I have been there.
 
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kev7:
You have to be crazy to think that the church will ever die. Christ won’t let that happen.
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That point of view is a safe one to take. A man with all the faith of Peter once said the same thing of Christ. Christ even asked his Dad not to let it happen to Him, and that didn’t stop it. You might be crazy to go against Peter’s faith or Christ’s prayer. Maybe I got that backwards. :whacky:
The stuff we read and the shows that we watch won’t be controlled.
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No, but our education will, cradle to grave, by the government.

…that last comment brought to you by the Noid in me:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Alan
 
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salival:
Yeah, but why? WHY must The Church be this way? WHY can’t people just accept The Church and obey God? :confused:

Why must The Church suffer? WHY is it rejected, mocked, ridicules, etc? Isn’t God in control of The Church? If so, then why must The Church go thru all this? :confused:
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Why did Christ suffer? Why was he mocked, rejected, ridiculed, etc? If we are to be like Him will we not bare the same?

All the things you have mentioned, far from being signs of impending death, are signs of true life!

We should count is all joy to share in our Lord’s passion.

Peace
 
ahem…, didn’t anyone tell you that Jesus rose, He lives!! He told us that the gates of hell would not prevail and that He would be with us to the end of an age (that means He will always be with us.) Fear not little flock, for it has pleased the Father to give you the Kingdom. :love:
 
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salival:
It is true. You just have to look around to see it. Churches closing everywhere, lack of priest, immorality of the priesthood, lack of unity within the hierarchy, no condemnation of errors and heresies, incredible decline in attendence and memberships, legalization of homosexual marriage, legalization of abortion, eutanasia, etc.

The plague of modernism has taken The Church by storm and while The Church has dealt with previous heresies and has survided them. This time around it is The Church that won’t survive.
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The Church cannot be distroyed; Jesus said “I will found my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” and “And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”

So, if His Church doesn’t survive, it is the end of the world and won’t matter, there will be a new heaven and a new earth.
 
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MGEISING:
When the church is at its darkest … greater saints emerge! That is fact, that is historical.

You seem very angry. 😦
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Yes! I firmly believe that we WILL get through this. Some pruning needs to be done and some wounds need to heal, but there will emerge an even stronger church! After all, Jesus said he will be with it till the end.
That is the hope I have.
 
Another thing is the theory of evolution. It completelly destroys the Adam and Eve along with Original Sin story and weakens, in fact completelly debunks the fundations of Catholicism.
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Actually, the truth is quite the reverse. It is the Theory of Evolution that has been thoroughly debunked and destroyed.

There are two places to look for verification of the Theory of Evolution: the fossil record and breeding experiments with animals. If the Evolution theory is correct, the fossil record should show innumerable slight gradations between earlier species and later ones. Even Darwin was aware, however, that the fossil record of his day showed nothing of the sort, and not only mentioned this is his book, he devoted an entire chapter to it entitled “The imperfection of the fossil record”.

The fossil record still shows exactly what it showed in Darwin’s day-that species appear suddenly in a fully developed state and change little or not at all before disappearing… Paleontologist Stephen Stanley writes that “the fossil record does not convincingly demonstrate a single transition from one species to another.” The scientific evidence shows that “Evolution” has never occurred, not even once, ever.

Since we do not see species changing into other species in the fossils, the only other place to look is breeding experiments. But here the evidence also goes against Evolution. Breeders can change the color of a pigeon or the size of a cow to some degree, but they can only go so far. In fact, all breeders have the same experience: If they try to go too far in one direction, the animal or plant in question either becomes sterile or reverts back to the original type. If you have a thousand-point mutation in the genes of a fruit fly, a statistical impossibility, it is still a fruit fly. Modem genetics shows that DNA programs a species to remain stubbornly what it is. There are minor fluctuations around a norm, but nothing more. Dogs remain dogs; fruit flies remain fruit flies, chimps remain chimps, humans remain humans.

All the major body plans we see today in animals and insects appeared at once in the Cambrian era, a fact which does not fit Evolution’s model. Many species like the lungfish, various reptiles, and numerous insects have not changed at all in over 300 million years despite major shifts in their environment, which flatly contradicts the theory of Evolution.

A biologist who works at the American Museum of Natural History summed the situation of evolutionary theory today: "We know that species reproduce, that there are different species now than there were a hundred million years ago, and that there are species here now that were here a hundred million years ago. Everything else is propaganda.’

It was recently discovered that the earliest “modern man” and the (currently accepted) most advanced “ancestor” that Evolutionists try to connect actually co-existed. This rules out evolution as impossible, period.
 
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