The Church is dying and will die

[Melanie01]

Do not be despondent, the Roman Catholic Church has always appeared tobe against the odds, but Jesus has promised the Gates of Hell will not prevail.So offer up prayers for the Church and for vocations and remember we as people can only see a tiny weeny bit of Gods plan a bit like not seeing the forest because of the trees.

Your fidelity to the Church matters and your fidelity to God, nothing else!

To Jesus Through Mary!

 

[Pythagoras]

yup the gates of hell will never prevail against it, that’s why he uses saints to repair the church

Jesus converted and used Paul

He used the Irish monks to save European Christianity who is suffering from rampant immorality in the 8th century

Four centuries later, he called St. Francis (as well as St. Dominc) to “repair his church” after so much corruption and immorality. The present pope then had this dream vision seeing Francis and Dominic saving the Church.

A lot of saints have given their lives to uplift the church
more like St. Francis of Sales, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. John Bosco, etct

 

[salival]

misterX:

will the church recover? yes. it will. it already is.

And how is it recovering? With the novus ordo abuses going rampant? With a possible schism between the USA and Rome? With the covering up of paedophile acts? By the closing of different Churches and the supression and futur criminalization (look at canada) of Catholicism? It is happening in the USA too, it is just a matter of time.

I don’t see this recovery, all I see is decline and erosion, watering down of dogmas and message, etc. I am serious, The Church has never faced this sort of challenge before, with the media and mass communication being available to everyone and the freedom of the press and all media, it has opened a pandora’s box of conflicting opinions and claims against The Church which she cannot control, that is what is making people lose credibility in it.

Im not a Jack Chick fan, I don’t even know who that is.

 

[salival]

Pythagoras:

yup the gates of hell will never prevail against it, that’s why he uses saints to repair the church

That is what you all continue to say, but how do you know this? How can you say that after seeing how everything is?

As far as saints go, where are them? When even the top of the top inside The Church are corrupt and do not follow what they teach, you’ll have a hard time finding any saints.

 

[salival]

twiztedseraph:

Puhlease! We’re 1000,000,000 strong!

I disagree. I contend that at least half of the 1 billion who call themselves Catholics are liberal Catholics or just Catholics in name. Most do not agree with everything the Church teaches, do not go to mass, support things like abortion, contraception and the like. So, i’d hardly count on that number.

 

[nkelly]

Salival,

With respect, you’re missing the point.

Jesus didn’t promise that the Church would never suffer or that it would remain unscathed. He promised that it would never be destroyed by the forces of Satan.

We all know there are problems in the church - we are frail humans and we err and make mistakes. I agree with you that things seem to have changed for the worse. I don’t know why the mass was changed, why altar rails were removed, patens no longer used, why communion is given in the hand etc. I think that Church is weakened but it’s far from dead!

Hang in there and don’t despair. Better to light a candle than curse the darkness! Pray the rosary.

God bless you,
Noel.

 

[salival]

nkelly:

I think that Church is weakened but it’s far from dead!

Yeah, but why? WHY must The Church be this way? WHY can’t people just accept The Church and obey God?

Why must The Church suffer? WHY is it rejected, mocked, ridicules, etc? Isn’t God in control of The Church? If so, then why must The Church go thru all this?

 

[twiztedseraph]

salival:

I disagree. I contend that at least half of the 1 billion who call themselves Catholics are liberal Catholics or just Catholics in name. Most do not agree with everything the Church teaches, do not go to mass, support things like abortion, contraception and the like. So, i’d hardly count on that number.

My friends keep pointing this out to me. That is what the media would have you believe after all. But lets think about this logically for a second. A pope’s teaching is scorned and disliked as backward, yet 2million attend his funeral? No, ofcourse in western countries a large portion is indeed liberal, but in the strongholds of Africa and Asia, I dare say that we have a conservative majority. Just remember the West is not the largest part of the Church. And those liberals are due mainly to bad teaching in Catholic Schools. I would prefer one Orthodox Priest teaching a 1000 kids, rather then 1 teacher who is liberal to a mere classroom. Its due to the lack of vocations, which in turn is due to the lack of education. Its a viscious cycle, but in about 10-20 years the liberal generation from Vatican 2 will die out and the John paul generation will take over. Theres hope yet.

 

[FCEGM]

salival:

Yeah, but why? WHY must The Church be this way? WHY can’t people just accept The Church and obey God?

Why must The Church suffer? WHY is it rejected, mocked, ridicules, etc? Isn’t God in control of The Church? If so, then why must The Church go thru all this?

The Church, since it is the Body of Christ, is not immune from the same treatment received by the Lord Jesus. The Church is the Incarnation extended into our time and place; just as the Lord suffered for our salvation, in His people He continues His salvific sacrifice. If you embrace this truth, you will experience great peace in the depths of your soul in the midst of attacks on Christ and His Church.

 

[nkelly]

Yeah, but why? WHY must The Church be this way? WHY can’t people just accept The Church and obey God?

Because we all have the gift of free will. God doesn’t force us to be faithful to His church. We can either choose to be faithful to the Gospel or we can reject it and thereby the wheat is separated from the chaff.

Why must The Church suffer? WHY is it rejected, mocked, ridicules, etc?

Because too many of us have been deluded and seduced by Satan and we fight against Jesus often without realizing it. Remember Jesus said “Whoever is not with me is against me”

Isn’t God in control of The Church? If so, then why must The Church go thru all this?

God is in control of everything even though it might not seem that way. In our arrogance we think we know better than God and we reject Him and follow our own free will to our detriment.
This life is a battle between good and evil - between Christ and Satan. Those who are save will replace the fallen angels in Heaven.

The greatest gift we can give God it to return our free will back to Him and thereby do His will instead of ours!

N.

 

[aaronjmagnan]

salival:

Also, wanted to add. Another thing is the theory of evolution. It completelly destroys the Adam and Eve along with Original Sin story and weakens, in fact completelly debunks the fundations of Catholicism.

No, it challenges an intellectual coming to terms with Adam and Eve and original sin, but it doesn’t A) debunk anything as it is not contradictory with symbolic interpretation B) contradict the creation story that suggests that man was created from the earth.

The Church does not hold a moral or faith-based position on evolution unless it comes into contradiction with the idea that God created it, and complete contradiction with the Bible account, which is not necessarily taken as completely literal, if not divinely inspired.

God bless
Aaron

 

[Peace-bwu]

The Church has lasted over 2,000 years, through much worse times than what we are facing today. We have Scriptural basis that Satan will never prevail against the Church. I would prefer to say we are becoming “concentrated” you know like frozen canned juice before you add the water? It’s very potent!

There will be many who fall away. The narrow gate is harder to enter. Sad but true. We are in times of great trial, but it is not much different from other struggles the Church has faced. We have the protection of the Holy Spirit. We must persevere in riteousness, even in while evil scratches at our doors and windows. Imagine how difficult it was to persevere in faith and hope in Nazi- occupied Poland? And look what came of it? Pope John II. One of the greatest Catholic men of all time! Never give up hope, trust in the Divine Mercy of the Sacred Heart of Jesus!

 

[Sherlock]

salival:

Yeah, but why? WHY must The Church be this way? WHY can’t people just accept The Church and obey God?

Why must The Church suffer? WHY is it rejected, mocked, ridicules, etc? Isn’t God in control of The Church? If so, then why must The Church go thru all this?

Good grief, what on earth do you think the Church is supposed to be? A vacation-spa for saints? Do you realize that what you just wrote above can pretty much be applied to the days of the early Church when Christians were persecuted? I guess you would have thrown in the towel back then…or to the Church in France during the Revolution? Guess you would have thrown in the towel back then too, and at a multiplicity of other periods in history. The world doesn’t contain the number of towels you’d be throwing in…Why do you think that Jesus said that His followers would be persecuted and reviled? Did you think he was joking, just having some chuckles with the Apostles (all but one of which were killed?)?

May I ask you a question? How old are you? I ask because you are sounding like a teenager filled with the usual gloomy teenager angst. And you didn’t answer the question I asked earlier: why have you thrown the theological virtue of hope out the window? Does it make it easier for you to NOT try and change yourself, or the culture? Usually, when a person is determined to see the world falling apart, there is some sort of “benefit” (often subconscious) that the person is getting out of it. Does dwelling on the troubles of the Church make it easy for you to do nothing? And, mind you, this does not mean that rejecting your Chicken-Little scenario implies that one has to be ignoring reality or wearing rose-colored glasses. It’s simply a question of historical perspective, faith, and trust in God. If you lack those things, then perhaps you should work on that before you post your adolescent angst. And, by the way, why do you think that the Church has to be the dominant religion in order to be valid? Jesus didn’t promise that at all.

 

[trth_skr]

stanley123:

I would have to agree with you.
For example, take a look at the number of annulments given out by the RCC in the USA:
In 1930 - 9 annulments total for the year.
In 1989 - 61, 416 annulments for that one year.

I ask this - is there any other Church, or any other religion which has experienced such an enormous increase in the number of annulments (or divorces or broken families) over this p;eriod of time?

I think in the USA and Europe, every other Church, as well as secular society saw this change.

The truly sad part is that Catholics went right along with it (perhaps slightly behind the secularists). Other than some clear cut and well catechised issues (such as abortion) I do not see much difference betweeen Catholics and “everybody else”. This is a new phenomenon. I hope Benedict XVI accepts God’s grace to turn this around.

I still disagree with the idea that the Church will “go away”. This may be the worst crisis it has ever seen, but it has seen some pretty bad ones. Imagine having three men stating they are the Pope. Who do you follow? Of course the difference then was individuals did not have to decide, there was political leadership who made the decision for regions.

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[LSK]

Really? Then why do we see this happening everywhere?

We also see the rebirth of the Catholic Church in Russia and Africa.

Why do we see it’s message being repudiated and ignored? It is only growing in those less developped countries

Does where it is growing troubling to you? Why is that?

But that is just because those countries have not reached the same stage as Europe and USA, hell it is starting to die in South America already. Just as the country gets more technologically advanced and gains more knowledge and as science advances Catholicism is eroded, withers and dies.

I cannot speak for everyone, but I have no problems reconciling science and my Catholic Faith. Neither does the Catholic Church. That is why it is not against our Faith to believe in, or to consider, the theory of evolution. Remember, the Church teaches that, if there seems to be a contradiction between science and theology the fault lies not in The Truth but in our inability to completely discern The Truth at this time - in other words, more will be revealed as our understanding deepens.

The example is clear in those two countries and in Canada as well.

Well, no. I think, my friend, you are letting the sin of despair beat you down. I understand that - I fight it in my personal life and know how hard it can be to combat feelings of uselessness and self-pity. Recently someone suggested I add Eucharistic Adoration to my spiritual life. I have - just once a week - and it has helped me so much. May I suggest you try? And if you are doing this all ready, forgive me for being presumptious - perhaps add the prayer “Jesus, grant me the Grace to sustain my faith and bear this pain”.

It is as if knowledge destroys Catholciism.

Knowledge cannot destroy Jesus’ Church. Why? Because God is the author of all knowledge.

Hang in there. You will be ok.

 

[Tom]

I thought I’d just add some statistics here, they don’t seem to support any imminent death to me. The Catholic Church is actually growing, both in the United states and elsewhere in the world. In 1995 there were aprox 700,000 Catholics in 2005 there are over 1.1 Billion, that’s what a 50% increase in 20 years?
As far as the United States, I just dug up stats from 2002, if anyone has later stats please publish.
The following is extracted fro a table in a study titled “Americans Struggle with Religion’s Role at Home and Abroad”, released on March 20, 2002. (I know, it’s 3 years old already)

The authors listed are:
Andrew Kohut, director of The Pew Research Center For The People & The Press
Melissa Rogers, executive director of The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
Denomination
1990 Est.
Adult Pop. 2001 Est.50,873,000
Adult Pop. 2004 Est.71,796,719
Est. % of U.S. Pop.,24.5%
2001 % Change +11%
1990 - 2001
Catholic 46,004,000

This indicates an 11% increase in those 11 years, and worldwide over a 50 % increase in the past 20 years. Where are you getting your figures that the Church is declining? Sounds like wishful thinking on non-Catholics part. Consider that the United States only represents about 6% of Catholics worldwide and you’ll understand our “problems” are not going to “kill” the Church.

The 2005 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches reported the following figures, based primarily on 2003 denominational reporting data:

1. Roman Catholic Church: 67.2 million.
2. Southern Baptist Convention: 16.4 million.
3. United Methodist Church: 8.2 million.
4. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: 5.5 million.
5. Church of God in Christ: 5.4 million.
6. National Baptist Convention USA: 5 million.
7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America: 4.9 million.
8. National Baptist Convention of America: 3.5 million.
9. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): 3.2 million.
10. Assemblies of God: 2.7 million.

Satan would love you to believe the Church that Jesus established is on it’s last leg, perhaps some would loose their faith. Don’t spread this misconception (I resist to call it a lie). Keep your faith and strengthen your fellow Christian.

 

[Tom]

Sorry, the formatting must have gotten lost on those stats, if you want to see them just do a search. Fact is the Church is not in a death spiral.

 

[FCEGM]

Sherlock:

. . .Does dwelling on the troubles of the Church make it easy for you to do nothing? And, mind you, this does not mean that rejecting your Chicken-Little scenario implies that one has to be ignoring reality or wearing rose-colored glasses. It’s simply a question of historical perspective, faith, and trust in God. If you lack those things, then perhaps you should work on that before you post your adolescent angst. And, by the way, why do you think that the Church has to be the dominant religion in order to be valid? Jesus didn’t promise that at all.

Excellent food for Salival’s thought, Sherlock! And, funny enough, just before I signed on I was thinking precisely about Chicken Little and Salival’s bewailing an acorn.

 

[tcay584]

Wormwood:

My point was that evolution was at work on the planet, but that human beings could not be accounted for by evolution alone, there was most certainly in my opinion, some level of creationism taking place. Is THAT what you are disagreeing with?

AH HA! Yes…I mean no…I mean…let me go back and reread your post .

 

[Valz]

I guess that people who focus too much on the bad things will only see bad things.

salival does not sees the good things that are happening to The Church today, he only focuses on the bad. If you continue to think this way you will be always like you are now.