The Church is dying and will die

[Catolico]

salival:

But most of the responses you all have posted, are based on the promise that Jesus said that The Church would not die. But how can you be sure of this

hmmmm let me see here oh yeah… yeah
How about…because the promise has been kept for over 2000 years and counting

Now I don´t mean to be rude but that 70% argument you came up with is just laughable :yup:

 

[Pace]

MrS:

This is nothing new… “…many of his disciples turned away and no longer followed him…”

Isn’t is awesome that the Church has survived in spite of all these big problems? We know it will because Jesus will allow the weeds to grow with the wheat. He will separate them at the end, not now. Further we are told that these evil things should be used to help us realize a GOoD thing when we see it. Look for the good, and don’t permit the (d)evil to take over your life

This is the problem. There are so many errors coming at once. There is so much separating of light and dark to be done. How can the Church keep up? The Church only has so much energy. This is where I think the original post is correct. I believe that God is (and has been for a long time now) orchestrating the ‘fall’ of the Church. If satan has returned to Eden and set up his throne there, why should we be surprised if our humble God takes the measly role of the serpent, to ‘tempt’ the people to Love? Nobody in hell wants the role of serpent anymore. It is the only unwatched pathway. So, that is the one way that is allowed to God. And I believe that he has chosen it.

And what is this reverse-temptation that God offers the world to restore it’s sacramental sight? it is the movie Mulholland Drive. This is why I brought up before that MD may be the (first emergence of the face of the) Second Coming.

“The secret of art lies in the fact that one seeks not, but finds.”

• Pablo Picasso

 

[Ghosty]

Beebs:

Sorry Ghostly, but the Big Bang is scientific principal (fact) that began with Hubble’s discover that all galaxies were moving away from each other (red shift). This proof helped Einstein remove the cosmological constant from his theory of relativity.

The cosmological constant was a fudge number Einstein used believing the universe was constant and not expanding.

This fact has been a problem for many atheists because scientists know the universe began with a violent explosion from one single point in space.

Futile they try all sorts of un proved theories (alternate universes, continuous big bang and big crunches…etc) to explain the point before the big bang.

It is interesting that this violent explosion is very much like "let there be light.

Anyone interested in a more in depth reading on these topics should read “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist” Geisler & Turek and “Case for the Creator” Strobel.

Beebs

Hubble’s work came out after Lemaitre’s; it actually proved his theory. It was an observation of the fact that Fr. Lemaitre had set forth in his original theory. Lemaitre put forth the notion as a physicist and a priest, based on Einstein’s own calculations, but without the errors that Einstein had built into his system. Lemaitre and Einstein even discussed and debated it before Hubble made his famous observation; Hubble’s observations simply backed up Lemaitre’s sound scientific theory and Einstein and the rest of the scientific community was forced to accept it.

space.about.com/cs/glossaryb/g/bigbangtheory.htm

space.about.com/cs/astronomerbios/a/lemaitrebio.htm

catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0022.html (this one has a neat picture of Lemaitre and Einstein standing together).

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

salival:

Also, wanted to add. Another thing is the theory of evolution. It completelly destroys the Adam and Eve along with Original Sin story and weakens, in fact completelly debunks the fundations of Catholicism.

I don’t know if this was answered, but you’re completely 100% wrong.

Catholics don’t have to believe the creation story literally. They simply must believe it is some sort of literal or metaphoric story as to the downfall of man.

 

[reen12]

Dear salival,

I read your original post, with interest.

Many of the original heresies, which appeared one at
a time, have seen a resurgence…all at the same time.

In the eyes of the world, the RCC is in great difficulty…
at least, here, in the U.S.

Modernism runs rampant - as does secular humanism,
in the secular culture.
The attempt is being made to marginalize *all *Christians
from the “public square.” [That is, religion should
remain a “private” matter of “personal belief.”]

An uncomfortable percentage of “entertainment” has
introduced the culture to the “sewer”. [including an
increasing number of TV commercials, IMO.]

World events are wearying, as well as alarming, to contemplate.

The notion of “authority” of any kind, is rejected in much
of the Western World, again, IMO.
[Look at the commercials that utilize the idea of
“play by your own rules”, or variations of same.]

Yet…Christ is Lord of History, the perfect sacrifice is
offered to God, daily, around the world - and whatever
happens, in our own, personal “history”, will be endurable, because
Christ will be with each of us, throughout it all.

I’m glad that I was born in 1946. I’ve endured the
Cold War, the Sixties, the Vietnam War, inflation
in the seventies - I’ve witnessed the collapse of the
Soviet Empire, the fall of the Berlin Wall *. I’ve seen
the first, and now the second war in the Middle East.
The insanity of the destruction of the World Trade Towers.
*

My point is, each generation has to confront realities
that they’d rather not have to confront.
My parents generation lived thru the Depression, as
children, and reached young adulthood in time to
be swept up in World War II. They further experienced
the Sixties - watching in dismay, as their values
were trashed, publicy, and continue to be trashed,
to this day.
I look to the generations behind me, to continue to
fight the good fight, to carry forward the love of God
and, yes, to behave nobly.

The Church has weathered 20 centuries of war, mayhem,
outright hostility…it is an “old hand” at negotiating the
circumstances of history.

Please keep in heart that Christ is Lord of History.

God bless you, salival,

reen12**

 

[bones_IV]

Salival, are you being influenced by the liberal main stream media? It sure seems that way.

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

In Petto:

Whoa! Where did you hear that? Thats quite interesting to say the least! I’d love it if you had a source. It’s a cool thing to think of education crumbling Islam as Catholicisim stands fast against the storm.

 

[Liberian]

salival:

Also, wanted to add. Another thing is the theory of evolution. It completelly destroys the Adam and Eve along with Original Sin story and weakens, in fact completelly debunks the fundations of Catholicism.

Salival,

Dateline 1920’s: The new cosmological theory, called the “Steady-State Theory,” states that the universe has existed from eternity and shows no sign of ever ending. This latest result of scientific research, held with great assurance by all the modern astronomers and cosmologists, completely destroys the Christian myth of a creation and weakens, in fact completely debunks the foundations of Catholicism.

As Saint Cyprian said, “The Church is an anvil that has worn out a good many hammers.” And if I may expand on his metaphor a bit, an anvil is always getting pounded on.

• Liberian

 

[In_Petto]

Islam is one religion that doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny. A lot of it just plain doesn’t add up or make sense, which is why you have so much variance in mosque teaching around the world. The vast majority of committed Muslims are poverty-level and illiterate. All the models you read about of Islam taking over Christianity are too simple. They all say—“Islam is growing at x%, Christianity is growing at y%, therefore, Islam will overtake Christianity in z# of years”

One reason the terrorists are fighting so hard in Iraq is because they sense the end of that type of hard commitment to Islam coming.

The exposure to western culture will make a lot of those religious ideas implode. Islam is waaaaay more affected by modern culture than is any other world religion.

Islam is a (relatively) short-term threat. The long-term threat to Christianity remains athiesm and relativism.

 

[reen12]

Hi, Liberian,

quote: Liberian

As Saint Cyprian said, “The Church is an anvil that has worn out a good many hammers.”

What a great quote!

reen12

 

[Brian_Ingram]

salival:

Also, wanted to add. Another thing is the theory of evolution. It completelly destroys the Adam and Eve along with Original Sin story and weakens, in fact completelly debunks the fundations of Catholicism.

How?

You have to demonstrate the validity of your assertion. Otherwise it is a meaningless.

Pax

Brian

 

[Brian_Ingram]

salival:

Well, this topic sure got active. But most of the responses you all have posted, are based on the promise that Jesus said that The Church would not die. But how can you be sure of this if everything around you says other wise?

I mean, Catholicism is God’s religion, you would think that it would be dominant, like maybe a 70 percent of the world or something, with only a few deviants. But it is not that, it is shrinking and on decline, so, why? How can God’s religion be in such a state?

I doesn’t makes any sense.

As far as Evolution goes, yes it destroys original sin, evolution says there was death before the fall and also polygenism and that there were meat eaters before the fall. But The Bible says the contrary. You can try and read it as methaphor but it still debunks original sin and us being descended form Adam.

salival

Lets look at the Bible
Gen 2:17 “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
The death that would come from eating of the fruit is not a physical death but a spiritual one. Spiritual death being the separating of man from God and the divine life, the corruption of mans spiritual nature, and a loss of innocence
We see that it was not physical death in the following verse

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So Adam and Eve after their sin could still have become immortal through eating of the fruit.

This would have a disaster for man, as he would have been cut of from God for eternity.

However God in His mercy drove out man from the Garden of Eden and away from the tree of life. Deprived of that man is destined to die

Christ by his death and atoning sacrifice on the cross paid for Adams transgression and our sins and redeemed mankind to God

By His resurrection he overcomes death and destroys its hold on mankind and makes possible our physical resurrection.

The Garden of Eden repesents the state of being that Adam was created in. A state that we can speculate on that was similar to the risen Christ body, able to appear instantly to move through solid objects etc. In this state the faculties of the physical body is different than that which Adam found himself removed from the Garden of Eden, and which we endure on earth.

In the animal kingdom the natural state was always one that was going to lead to physical death and decay. The bible talks about death coming into the world through Adam transgression but it is as I have said a spiritual death that it is talking about.

Pax

Brian

 

[aaronjmagnan]

It is true. You just have to look around to see it. Churches closing everywhere, lack of priest, immorality of the priesthood, lack of unity within the hierarchy, no condemnation of errors and heresies, incredible decline in attendence and memberships, legalization of homosexual marriage, legalization of abortion, eutanasia, etc.

That message is seen everywhere “now” because the current media cababilities show it now. These are all problems we have seen before.

Read “Ship of Fools” by Sebastian Brandt (is that his name?). There is a section on priests who should not be in the priesthood. The text was written a few hundred years ago.

The Romans practiced homosexuality freely for centuries, and they were mass-converted.

There have been schism that “threatened the unity of the hierarchy” but that’s not the truth.

Decline in membership can be matched with the guarantee of “the Advocate” to step in to save the world. DO NOT DESPAIR.

Those legalizations are American laws, not Catholic laws.

God bless, and seek your faith.

Aaron

 

[Beebs]

Ghosty:

Hubble’s work came out after Lemaitre’s; it actually proved his theory. It was an observation of the fact that Fr. Lemaitre had set forth in his original theory. Lemaitre put forth the notion as a physicist and a priest, based on Einstein’s own calculations, but without the errors that Einstein had built into his system. Lemaitre and Einstein even discussed and debated it before Hubble made his famous observation; Hubble’s observations simply backed up Lemaitre’s sound scientific theory and Einstein and the rest of the scientific community was forced to accept it.

space.about.com/cs/glossaryb/g/bigbangtheory.htm

space.about.com/cs/astronomerbios/a/lemaitrebio.htm

catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0022.html (this one has a neat picture of Lemaitre and Einstein standing together).

Impressive. Well you learn something new everyday.
Thanks
Beebs

 

[stanley123]

salival:

It is true. You just have to look around to see it. Churches closing everywhere, lack of priest, immorality of the priesthood, lack of unity within the hierarchy, no condemnation of errors and heresies, incredible decline in attendence and memberships, legalization of homosexual marriage, legalization of abortion, eutanasia, etc.

The plague of modernism has taken The Church by storm …

I would have to agree with you.
For example, take a look at the number of annulments given out by the RCC in the USA:
In 1930 - 9 annulments total for the year.
In 1989 - 61, 416 annulments for that one year.

I ask this - is there any other Church, or any other religion which has experienced such an enormous increase in the number of annulments (or divorces or broken families) over this p;eriod of time?

 

[twiztedseraph]

salival:

It is true. You just have to look around to see it. Churches closing everywhere, lack of priest, immorality of the priesthood, lack of unity within the hierarchy, no condemnation of errors and heresies, incredible decline in attendence and memberships, legalization of homosexual marriage, legalization of abortion, eutanasia, etc.

The plague of modernism has taken The Church by storm and while The Church has dealt with previous heresies and has survided them. This time around it is The Church that won’t survive.

A crucial factor is going to be the separation of Church and State, back then, The Church had the state to support it, but now it doesn’t, so it is more vulnerable and it is showing, she now can’t supress heresies or silence attacks against it. She can’t ban books or burn them, but people are free to publish anything they want about The Church even lies about it like the Da Vinci Code. Anybody now mocks and ridicules, questions the Pope. No less than 100 years ago, the Pope was respected and so were priests. But now, they are seen as corrupt people and the pope as a dinosour.

It won’t belong till it happen. Islam is also going to take over and conquer finally Catholicism after so many attemps, and then Catholicism will wither and die.

The conflic will then be between Islam and Modernism, that will bring some pain ot the world.

Puhlease! We’re 1000,000,000 strong! look at WYD! We’re growing, we’re the true Church, we’re never gonna disappear…

 

[Ghosty]

Beebs: Makes for some fun spit in the eye of atheism, doesn’t it?

 

[Wormwood]

have genomes far more complicated than ours, or any other mammal or bacteria for that matter? Have they evolved from us?

It is possible. A few of the gene pairs that we did share with other creatures were found only in bacteria. The scientists said is was impossible to tell if we aquired the genes from them or vice versa.

Lateral gene transfer does not refer to an order of acquisition, it simply means genes can be passed on by means other than sexual reproduction

Ok first of all that was the point of the whole story, and secondly I was speaking from the macro evolutionary standpoint of the scientist that cracked the humane genome. That the data all fit into what they already believed about evolution, except human beings.

We did not laterally acquire anything from apes.

Also the same point I was trying to make. Maybe you should reread my post because it sounds like we are on the same page. My point was that evolution was at work on the planet, but that human beings could not be accounted for by evolution alone, there was most certainly in my opinion, some level of creationism taking place. Is THAT what you are disagreeing with?

 

[misterX]

salival:

It is as if knowledge destroys Catholciism.

It seems to me that you think that these things only apply to the catholic church. are you a jack chick fan?
yes the church is going through hard times. but not as hard as other lesser christian faiths …(like the one you belong to)As is judaism…will the church recover? yes. it will. it already is. Evolution doesn’t hurt our faith. no “theroy” will. (and yes it’s only a theroy) So i’m sorry to burst your little bubble of joy. but the church is alive and well…

 

[nkelly]

Salival,

I understand your concerns, it’s easy to become despondent and lament the state of the Church.

Don’t ever forget though that Our Lord has promised us faithfully that “the gates of hell will not prevail”. The Church is the bride of Christ. Do you think Jesus would let his bride die, that he wouldn’t protect her?

The Church is like a ship that has been battered by storm after storm but it’s still sailing. Certainly there a few rats on board and several of the passengers have fallen over-board but nevertheless it still weathers every storm.

May God bless you and give you consolation.

Noel.

Matthew 10:22

“And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.”