The Church is dying and will die

[dafalax]

Evolution doesn’t disprove anything. Number one, if God is infinite, then evolution can most certainly be a part of his plan. Number 2, evolution does not disprove the Adam and Eve theory. You obviously haven’t studied anything about evolution at all. I just got done with a sick biology class that made all kinds of excuses for the shortcomings of the Evolutionary theory, like why the missing links can’t be found, etc. and it is a theory full of holes. The scientists in the videos that accompanied this course basically said we would never have official proof of evolution as the source of our creation, but that all circumstantial evidence points to it. It’s B.S. and poor science. Positivists can’t do that, they have to be able to scientifically prove what they believe in, otherwise why can’t you just say that it was God who set the world in motion by organizing the first elements into a living cell that begat all other cells? There is a good catholic resource on why evolution IS NOT the end all be all explanation of why we’re here and why scientists are brushing GOOD SCIENTIFIC METHOD aside to push their biases. Unfortunately i cannot at this time remember what it is, but it was on EWTN, so i’m sure if you check their online library, you could find it pretty easily. People are so weak in their faith. They look for any excuse to not follow the teachings of the Church because they don’t wanna, and it’s pretty pathetic. If you cannot use science to prove the existence of God, then you cannot use Science to disprove Him, either. Also, i’m pretty sure you, Salival, just posted this to get a reaction out of everyone, and it wasn’t charitable. If you have an honest question, ask it, don’t try to intentionally hack everyone off. It makes you manipulative, you know.

 

[Ghosty]

Besides you can try the theory of evolution all you want but it can’t explain the big bang (kind of reminds me of “Let there be light” )

And the Big Bang was put forth by a Catholic priest, and stands well above evolutionary theory as one of the most fundamental and well-demonstrated scientific theories in human history.

In my opinion, the Big Bang is the Church’s way of saying “See, thanks to our theology we can even do science better than the secular world. Enjoy”.

 

[Fidelis]

bear06:

You should come to where I live. The Church is growing so much here that we’re having to build new churches to accomodate us all!

Same here. Our parish is busting at the seams (We have a 2000 seat sanctuary and no, we haven’t closed any existing parishes). My pastor has said if every non-practicing Catholic in our town came to Mass every Sunday, he doesn’t know where he’d put them.

I think it depends where you live. In liberal dioceses or parts of the country where the population is graying and ideas from the silly sixties and seventies still hold sway, the Church seems moribund. Where there is youth, and orthodoxy, and where authentic Catholic spirituality and devotions are encouraged to be lived in a non-mechanical way, there is life and growth.

 

[MonicaC]

I think with all that has happened this year. The death of Pope JPII and the death of Terry Shivio (sp) the election of the Pope and than World Youth Day. Every on most admite that the Church is Alive and it is Young. Is it wonderful! God is Good to his church. :clapping: :yup: It really gives me hope in this very secular world.

 

[tcay584]

Wormwood:

Man I hate telling this story but here goes… Scientists have recently unlocked the human genome. Basically that means they have mapped all of the pairs of genes that compose our physical makeup. Most of our genes can be accounted for in some evelutionary sense, that is to say that they can be traced back to the creatures that those gene pairs originated in. Before the experiment it was known that a common bacteria has roughly 9,000 gene pairs, so it was suspected that human beings would have hundreds of thousands of gene pairs. We have 30,000 as it so happens. At this point you could say that we are roughly only 3 times more complex than bacteria, or the optimist view which is that very few genes make a huge difference. Both are true. While almost all of the pairs could be accounted for there were 236 pairs that defied the logic of the whole evelutionary system, because we aquired them laterally, that is to say all at once, and not in progression. Not only that, we are the creature of origin, meaning no other creature has these genes. All other pairs were aquired one or two pairs at a time but human beings recieved 236 pairs all at the same time. What does this mean? Well We are roughly 1% different than chimps on a genetic level. It is that 1% that divides humans from the rest of the animal kingdom. 1% of 30,000 is 300 or roughly 236 gene pairs. Therefore based strictly on the evidence one could conclude that BOTH are in fact true. How’s that for an agnostic response?

Man, I hate trashing your lovely theory, but how do you account for the fact that zooxanthellae (unicellular algae) have genomes far more complicated than ours, or any other mammal or bacteria for that matter? Have they evolved from us?
Genes do not get passed on in pairs, I assume you are referring to allelles, microsatellites, or nucleotide base pairs. You do inherit dominant and recessive genes, but the deal there is phenotypic determination based on ONE gene from each parent.
Lateral gene transfer does not refer to an order of acquisition, it simply means genes can be passed on by means other than sexual reproduction. This usually refers to the acquisition of genes from a bacterial or symbiotic source, it happens very rarely, and it is impossible to laterally transfer genes between mammals unless you are a molecular biologist. We did not laterally acquire anything from apes. If you look at genetic sequence alignments, 99% homology is not even enough for an assumption of relation.
Sorry…and now back to your regularly scheduled thread…

 

[TobyLue]

“We are living in an age in which subversive teaching has wrought universal havoc, produced hopeless mental confusion and resulted in an almost complete moral and social disintegration. The very concepts by which men think have been distorted and words have been wrenched from their original meaning. Hardly has a generation ever been farther away from the truth and less capable of finding its bearings………

… Sound doctrinal teachings to offset the errors of our days, a clear exposition of the essential duties of man to counteract the rampant moral dissolution, and the encouraging message of the divine assistance by means of grace and the Sacraments to supplement man’s moral helplessness are the antidotes for the evils of our times. The supernatural needs to be stressed in an age which enamored of its scientific progress and intoxicated by its mechanical achievements trust entirely to itself and repudiates help from above. True, mankind’s confidence in its own devices and resources is fast being shatter and lest utter despair descent on our race it must be reminded that with God there always is abundant redemption.”

This could very well have been written by somebody yesterday or today, but this was written back in 1938. This is from a book “Discourses on the Apostles Creed” and its no longer in print, the publishing company no longer exists and don’t even know who the author was. Excellent reading. So the trials and tribulations the Church is going through right now is nothing new. She will survive because Jesus said so and Jesus ain’t no liar

 

[AquinasXVI]

Salival:

GKChesterton said once that the church follows the path of Christ. It dies and it rises up again because the Catholic Church has a God that knows the way out of the grave. In another piece he said that the church always returns strong with the youth. Just stick around and see what the JP II youth will do in this millenium.

Read more history brother. Read about Athanasius, Brian Boru, Thomas More.

in XT.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

salival:

It is true. You just have to look around to see it. Churches closing everywhere, lack of priest, immorality of the priesthood, lack of unity within the hierarchy, no condemnation of errors and heresies, incredible decline in attendence and memberships, legalization of homosexual marriage, legalization of abortion, eutanasia, etc.

The plague of modernism has taken The Church by storm and while The Church has dealt with previous heresies and has survided them. This time around it is The Church that won’t survive.

A crucial factor is going to be the separation of Church and State, back then, The Church had the state to support it, but now it doesn’t, so it is more vulnerable and it is showing, she now can’t supress heresies or silence attacks against it. She can’t ban books or burn them, but people are free to publish anything they want about The Church even lies about it like the Da Vinci Code. Anybody now mocks and ridicules, questions the Pope. No less than 100 years ago, the Pope was respected and so were priests. But now, they are seen as corrupt people and the pope as a dinosour.

It won’t belong till it happen. Islam is also going to take over and conquer finally Catholicism after so many attemps, and then Catholicism will wither and die.

The conflic will then be between Islam and Modernism, that will bring some pain ot the world.

The Church is always dying - she has to, if she is bring forth fruit. Without death, there can be no Resurrection.​

She has been doing so for 1900 years.

Since she “bears about the dying of the Lord in [her] body”, in St. Paul’s words, this is anything but surprising. And she will continually die, until the end of the world. Since she must live out the Paschal Mystery in her life on earth, and since she must do so in order to be conformed to Christ Who died and was raised, and since this Mystery includes the Death of Christ, and since we cannot be His disciples unless we carry the Cross daily, dying is exactly what one would expect the Church to do ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

salival:

Really? Then why do we see this happening everywhere?

Why do we see it’s message being repudiated and ignored? It is only growing in those less developped countries. But that is just because those countries have not reached the same stage as Europe and USA, hell it is starting to die in South America already. Just as the country gets more technologically advanced and gains more knowledge and as science advances Catholicism is eroded, withers and dies. The example is clear in those two countries and in Canada as well.

It is as if knowledge destroys Catholciism.

But we don’t ​

Not in China, not in Africa, not in large parts of South America.

The Church will still be here, even if there should be only a few dozen Catholics left in the whole world.

God cares far more for His Church than any of us could - the Church could not possibly be in better hands than His We have every reason to rejoice at His care for the Church. ##

 

[salival]

Well, this topic sure got active. But most of the responses you all have posted, are based on the promise that Jesus said that The Church would not die. But how can you be sure of this if everything around you says other wise?

I mean, Catholicism is God’s religion, you would think that it would be dominant, like maybe a 70 percent of the world or something, with only a few deviants. But it is not that, it is shrinking and on decline, so, why? How can God’s religion be in such a state?

I doesn’t makes any sense.

As far as Evolution goes, yes it destroys original sin, evolution says there was death before the fall and also polygenism and that there were meat eaters before the fall. But The Bible says the contrary. You can try and read it as methaphor but it still debunks original sin and us being descended form Adam.

salival

 

[MonicaC]

salival:

I mean, Catholicism is God’s religion, you would think that it would be dominant, like maybe a 70 percent of the world or something, with only a few deviants. But it is not that, it is shrinking and on decline, so, why? How can God’s religion be in such a state?

Now what in the world would ever give you this idea?

And can you show me where it is declining? In the West? Because like so many have stated it is not delclining in East or in Africa.

 

[petra]

salival:

Also, wanted to add. Another thing is the theory of evolution. It completelly destroys the Adam and Eve along with Original Sin story and weakens, in fact completelly debunks the fundations of Catholicism.

…As far as Evolution goes, yes it destroys original sin, evolution says there was death before the fall and also polygenism and that there were meat eaters before the fall. But The Bible says the contrary. You can try and read it as methaphor but it still debunks original sin and us being descended form Adam.

Macroevolution, guided by the hand of God, does not contradict the story of Adam and Eve and original sin in the slightest. There are many good threads on this board that explain why.

Where does the Bible say there was no physical death before the Fall?

 

[Ghosty]

But how can you be sure of this if everything around you says other wise?

Because this dude rose from the dead, just like He said He would, when everything indicated He was worm food. If He says the Church will be preserved, I’m taking the side of the guy who walked right out of His grave; He’s apparently got some funky mojo.

I mean, Catholicism is God’s religion, you would think that it would be dominant, like maybe a 70 percent of the world or something, with only a few deviants. But it is not that, it is shrinking and on decline, so, why? How can God’s religion be in such a state?

When did God ever claim that the majority of people would be faithful, would be saved? I seem to remember another time when only a single man and his family were preserved during a flood, as the rest of the known world was washed away. Then there was a time with the same outcome in a little town called Sodom. God’s people have never been the majority; the fact that the Church is as big as it is simply astonishes me given the history of righteousness and faithfulness in humanity. What blows my mind is that in this secular world of sex, violence, and philosophical suicide, my parish is standing room only at Mass on Sunday. That should not be! It’s a miracle that can’t be overstated.

Before you start doomsaying, remember that there was a time when Catholics literally worshipped underground because if they showed themselves in the light of day they would be fed to lions or publically scourged to death. We not only made it through that, we have a library of writings from that time that still stand as some of the greatest works of theology and philosophy the world has ever seen, and those works are hailed even in the secular world.

We’ve got staying power. We’re with the dude who rose Himself from the dead.

As far as Evolution goes, yes it destroys original sin, evolution says there was death before the fall and also polygenism and that there were meat eaters before the fall. But The Bible says the contrary. You can try and read it as methaphor but it still debunks original sin and us being descended form Adam.

Funny, the Magesterium (which put forth the doctrine of Original Sin in the first place) disagrees with you, and has explained numerous times and in numerous ways why it disagrees with you.

 

[barsapp]

From a historical point of view we can say that the enlargement process of the Catholic Church has ceased. During more than two thousands years have been periods of conquering and periods of defense. From a theological point of view, this means nothing. As stated by jjoshil:

Luke 18:8: “when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”. One of the signs of the end of the world is the widespread apostasy. But the Church lives and will live forever, because is the Mystical Body of Christ. It is not possible for Her “to die”.

 

[Della]

salival:

Well, this topic sure got active. But most of the responses you all have posted, are based on the promise that Jesus said that The Church would not die. But how can you be sure of this if everything around you says other wise?

Because he is the Son of God.

I mean, Catholicism is God’s religion, you would think that it would be dominant, like maybe a 70 percent of the world or something, with only a few deviants. But it is not that, it is shrinking and on decline, so, why? How can God’s religion be in such a state?

I doesn’t makes any sense.

No, it doesn’t from the world’s point of view. St. Paul told us that the Faith was nonsense to the Greeks (Gentiles) and a stumblingblock to the Jews. It doesn’t appeal to many because it calls for a reformation of life–a complete giving of oneself to God in total love. Fallen, selfish human beings don’t want that, they want to live in material luxury not take a chance on God actually being real and demanding anything of them. And for many the idea that God became man is too scandalous to their nice sensibilities. They want him to stay totally divine so they can dismiss him while pretending to serve him, even though they refuse to believe him in dispite of the Resurrection.

As far as Evolution goes, yes it destroys original sin, evolution says there was death before the fall and also polygenism and that there were meat eaters before the fall. But The Bible says the contrary. You can try and read it as methaphor but it still debunks original sin and us being descended form Adam.

Sorry to disillusion you but there is not a scrap of evidence that macro-evolution is anything but a theory born out of wanting to have a simple, non-Christian answer to why we are here and what we are. Theories are not truths.

salival

 

[AquinasXVI]

Salival:

Are you a Catholic? Atheist? Pessimist? Fundamentalist?

 

[In_Petto]

salival:

It is true. You just have to look around to see it. Churches closing everywhere,

lack of priest

Some parishes have closed in inner cities where there has been a changing of the neighborhoods. in America, maybe, but the rest of the world is doing well. Even in the U.S., the more orthodox seminaries are getting tons of people applying–it seems the more conservative and faithful to the magisterium, the more good men you get-hmmm…,

immorality of the priesthood

again–mostly in the U.S. and with a direct link to “progressive” seminaries, which are the part of The Church actually dying out.,

lack of unity within the hierarchy, no condemnation of errors and heresies

there are plenty of condemnations of errors and heresies if you know where to look,

incredible decline in attendence and memberships

that WAS true, but it’s coming back pretty strongly,

legalization of homosexual marriage,

not in the Catholic Church, which is the rock of civilization.

legalization of abortion

see above,

eutanasia, etc.

see above

The plague of modernism has taken The Church by storm and while The Church has dealt with previous heresies and has survided them. This time around it is The Church that won’t survive.

The world has heard that before.

A crucial factor is going to be the separation of Church and State, back then, The Church had the state to support it, but now it doesn’t, so it is more vulnerable and it is showing,

Didn’t need it for a long while during the first centuries–and hasn’t had it for another long while.

she now can’t supress heresies

she can identify them and ban heretics

or silence attacks against it.

Does she need to?

She can’t ban books or burn them, but people are free to publish anything they want about The Church even lies about it like the Da Vinci Code.

It has always been thus.

Anybody now mocks and ridicules, questions the Pope. No less than 100 years ago, the Pope was respected and so were priests. But now, they are seen as corrupt people and the pope as a dinosour.

Somewhat true, yet the Pope and Catholic priests have long been attacked and slandered. And how many people solemnly watched JPII’s funeral—2 million or more in person? 100 million or more on TV across the globe–all crying and praying.

It won’t belong till it happen. Islam is also going to take over and conquer finally Catholicism after so many attemps, and then Catholicism will wither and die.

Islam is the thing dying it seems. There is a direct correlation between education and a decline or even a complete dropping of Muslim beliefs.

Seriously–it doesn’t seem so bad to me.

 

[ekim61]

salival:

It is true. You just have to look around to see it. Churches closing everywhere, lack of priest, immorality of the priesthood, lack of unity within the hierarchy, no condemnation of errors and heresies, incredible decline in attendence and memberships, legalization of homosexual marriage, legalization of abortion, eutanasia, etc.

The plague of modernism has taken The Church by storm and while The Church has dealt with previous heresies and has survided them. This time around it is The Church that won’t survive.

A crucial factor is going to be the separation of Church and State, back then, The Church had the state to support it, but now it doesn’t, so it is more vulnerable and it is showing, she now can’t supress heresies or silence attacks against it. She can’t ban books or burn them, but people are free to publish anything they want about The Church even lies about it like the Da Vinci Code. Anybody now mocks and ridicules, questions the Pope. No less than 100 years ago, the Pope was respected and so were priests. But now, they are seen as corrupt people and the pope as a dinosour.

It won’t belong till it happen. Islam is also going to take over and conquer finally Catholicism after so many attemps, and then Catholicism will wither and die.

The conflic will then be between Islam and Modernism, that will bring some pain ot the world.

There are probably hundreds of ways I coulod refute you statements but how about (other than Jesus will not abandon his church):
I hardly think that 1.1 billion Catholics will wither and die!

 

[Valz]

salival:

based on the promise that Jesus said that The Church would not die. But how can you be sure of this if everything around you says other wise?

So, you are saying that God is a liar? That his Word and his Church are in error? I mean, on what basis do you say somthing like that? God said he would keep his promise and you are now saying this is not true? Why?

I mean, Catholicism is God’s religion, you would think that it would be dominant, like maybe a 70 percent of the world or something, with only a few deviants. But it is not that, it is shrinking and on decline, so, why? How can God’s religion be in such a state?

God didn’t say that his Church would convert the whole world. He said that few would endure till the end remaining faithful to The Church. That is what The Bible says, not what you imply here. And in what “state” is Catholicism in? Dying you say? No, what is happening is that people are falling from the faith, but The Church is alive and well, God protects it.

I doesn’t makes any sense.

It makes perfect sense to me! God made a promise and it has held for 2000 years, what makes you think that The Church is not going to endure the current heresies? Do you think that this is anything compared to previous heresies like the arian heresy? This is nothing, The Church is on some inner turmoil now, that is true, but as uual she rights hereself and becomes stronger and flourishes.

As far as Evolution goes, yes it destroys original sin, evolution says there was death before the fall and also polygenism and that there were meat eaters before the fall. But The Bible says the contrary. You can try and read it as methaphor but it still debunks original sin and us being descended form Adam.

I do not accept MACROevolution. It is a theory, and only a theory. It cannot be stablished as a fact. So, how can it contradict The Bible? It doesn’t because it is just a theory.

Islam is also going to take over and conquer finally Catholicism after so many attemps, and then Catholicism will wither and die.

Islam?? That’s absturd! If there is anything to which modernism is a threat it is to Islam, THAT religion dies FAST if it ever has to face modernism.

Valz

 

[Beebs]

Ghosty:

And the Big Bang was put forth by a Catholic priest, and stands well above evolutionary theory as one of the most fundamental and well-demonstrated scientific theories in human history.

In my opinion, the Big Bang is the Church’s way of saying “See, thanks to our theology we can even do science better than the secular world. Enjoy”.

Sorry Ghostly, but the Big Bang is scientific principal (fact) that began with Hubble’s discover that all galaxies were moving away from each other (red shift). This proof helped Einstein remove the cosmological constant from his theory of relativity.

The cosmological constant was a fudge number Einstein used believing the universe was constant and not expanding.

This fact has been a problem for many atheists because scientists know the universe began with a violent explosion from one single point in space.

Futile they try all sorts of un proved theories (alternate universes, continuous big bang and big crunches…etc) to explain the point before the big bang.

It is interesting that this violent explosion is very much like "let there be light.

Anyone interested in a more in depth reading on these topics should read “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist” Geisler & Turek and “Case for the Creator” Strobel.

Beebs