The Church is in rapid decline

[beischel]

Years ago I attended a business meeting that had a very interesting speaker. He talked about businesses that failed to change and are now out of business. He used Kodak, Blockbuster Video and a host of others as examples.

There was one thing he said that I will never forget - “If you don’t like change, then you are really going to hate extinction.”

I see this in our Church today. Not that it is heading for extinction, but it is in a rapid state of decline. Every Catholic Church that I have gone to mass in over the years has seen mass attendance plummet. Churches are closing. Catholic schools are closing. Priests are leaving. Homosexual and pedophile priests. Arrogant bishops. The Church is not changing to meet the needs of the people and as a result, people are leaving and the Church is declining.

I have thought about this quite a bit and here are where I see the major issues.

First, my opinion is that a Catholic education for our children is a RIGHT just like the Catholic Church believes healthcare is a right. But right now the average middle class family can no longer afford a Catholic education for their children. Sure if you are rich you can afford it. If you are poor you can in most cases get vouchers. But the middle class has been left behind by the Catholic Church and as a result, the middle-class is leaving the church.

When I was young, the Catholic School of the parish bright families together at the school. The school along with the church was the center of our universe. Without that school to unify people, people have migrated to the public schools and the Church has lost its importance. We need our schools and we need them to be affordable!

The second issue I see is the need for priests. I used to be against women priests, but why not? I was always in favor of married priests. At one time we had married priests in the early Church years. Eastern Rite has married priests and it works there just fine. The lack of spiritual leaders who are among the people is causing people to look elsewhere and moving to other non-Catholic churches that have an abundance of spiritual leaders/ministers to tend to the spiritual needs of the people.

We have priests being shared among two or even more churches. How can that one priest effectively address the needs of the people? You hardly ever see a priest today except at mass. We need to change and allow married priests and women priests.

End of Part 1

 

[adamhovey1988]

I’m confused by your rant, given that the pope has condemned socialism multiple times. Mass attendance has plummeted? You want to tell that to the areas here in the Southern United States, where the Church has grown exponentially? And not just because of immigration. If it seems like the pope condemns far right ideology more than he condemns far-left ideology, both of which are terrible ideas, keep in mind he lived under a right-wing dictatorship. The pope is The Shepherd of over 1 billion Christians, he is not your political representative. For the record, the title of the article is misleading anyway, because this is definitely not true in Africa and in much of Asia. You wax nostalgic for an era that never really existed, the Church has never had a perfect time period, just because it seems like things are terrible now, it doesn’t mean it’s any worse than it was. Christianity started, with Jesus picking people that he knew would betray him. I’m not saying things in the Church are perfect, but you’re exaggerating, and a bit too much at that.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

The Church is not changing to meet the needs of the people and as a result, people are leaving and the Church is declining.

Why would the church change scripture, tradition, and magisterial teaching just to appeal to the fickle preferences of the people?

“Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭NABRE

 

[Vico]

… The second issue I see is the need for priests. I used to be against women priests, but why not?..

When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church:

"She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include:

• the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men;
• the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men;
• and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God’s plan for his Church."
  – (Paul VI, Response to the Letter of His Grace the Most Reverend Dr. F.D. Coggan, Archbishop of Canterbury, concerning the Ordination of Women to the Priesthood (November 30, 1975); AAS 68 (1976), 599.)

https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-...p-ii_apl_19940522_ordinatio-sacerdotalis.html

I am an eastern Catholic, and we have married priests. A question to ask yourself is: are you willing to pay $25 more per week to have a married priest?

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

Why would the church change scripture, tradition, and magisterial teaching just to appeal the fickle preferences of the people?

I don’t think the OP is calling for a change in doctrine and beliefs, but in the perceived lack of accountability and dismissive attitude that some members of the hierarchy take towards the laity of the Church.

 

[beischel]

First, the Pope has become very political. The fact has he has gotten into the farce of man-made global warming is proof of that. Second, Argentina was run by left-wing Socialist dictators. At the beginning of the 20th Century, Argentina was one of the most prosperous countries in South American. Then, like the U.S., it started moving to Socialism with policies like healthcare of all and a host of other disastrous social programs. The country went into ruins and has never really recovered.

While the Pope may have condemned Socialism, he seems to embrace quite a bit of it.

Your statements about the Church growing in Africa and other areas kind of helps prove my point. These areas are usually poorer. The Church has always helped the poor and always takes care of the rich. It’s the middle-class they have abandoned. So while it may be growing in Africa, it is declining in the United States. It seems like the Church does well among the less fortunate because of its message of hope, but in the developed world, it is in decline. Just look at mass attendance in the U.S., Europe and Latin America.

BTW, I do not feel I am overstating the issue. I have talked to many current and fallen away Catholic and most feel the same way. Even former cradle Catholics in their 60’s, who I thought would never leave the Church, have walked away.

This is another problem with the Church. It either fails to recognize the problems or just ignores the problems.

 

[beischel]

Thank you Johann_du_Toit - exactly!

 

[beischel]

(name removed by moderator) - it is NOT impossible. The only reference you made that is accurate is that it is based on tradition.

Let’s recall that Jesus came over 2,000 years ago. 2,000 years ago women were not perceived as equals; they were subservient to men. Jesus was merely working with the situation at that time. He would not have selected women as they could not have performed effectively to evangelize the faith at that period of time.

Your reference to Jewish tradition is the same, but even earlier than the time of Jesus so the same goes for the earlier times when women were just not considered equal.

If the Church hold women as equal, even if they have differing roles due to gender, there is still no logical or theological reason women and married men cannot serve as priests.

Frankly, something is going to have to have to change. If we don’t change, there will eventually be so few priests that we will have no one to say mass.

 

[beischel]

Hi Vico, the question you should be asking is are we ready for almost no priests? I put in the amount I am able to afford. I will say that when I do my taxes each year, by far the most money I donate is to my church and to Catholic schools.

You are looking at this as a zero sum game. More priests, but the same amount of parishioners. I submit that with more priests who are more active in ministering to the people and a wife who is active, more would come to church, more would join the church and more donations would come into the church to support a family. Frankly, the Protestants are able to do it just fine.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

The Church in which country is in rapid decline?

 

[Vico]

Hi Vico, the question you should be asking is are we ready for almost no priests? I put in the amount I am able to afford. I will say that when I do my taxes each year, by far the most money I donate is to my church and to Catholic schools.

You are looking at this as a zero sum game. More priests, but the same amount of parishioners. I submit that with more priests who are more active in ministering to the people and a wife who is active, more would come to church, more would join the church and more donations would come into the church to support a family. Frankly, the Protestants are able to do it just fine.

It is not any kind of game. For the Byzantine Catholic Church, many parishes have many older members dying (including priests) and thus they get parishes combined or one priest going to multiple parishes. In 2017 the Byzantine statistics are: 670 parishes with 564 priests and 8 bishops. That means, including bishops, 417795 members / 572 priests and bishops ~ 730 members/priest or bishop. However since a parish territory may include an entire state the attendance may be less than 100.

 

[Vico]

…
Even former cradle Catholics in their 60’s, who I thought would never leave the Church, have walked away.
…

We are saved by grace, but if we fail to cooperate with that grace and choose sin we may then may begin to a dissent with the teachings of the Church and fail to participate.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

mrsdizzyd:

Why would the church change scripture, tradition, and magisterial teaching just to appeal the fickle preferences of the people?

I don’t think the OP is calling for a change in doctrine and beliefs, but in the perceived lack of accountability and dismissive attitude that some members of the hierarchy take towards the laity of the Church.

I don’t think you read all of what he wrote. The scandal and accountability piece is only one aspect of his response that also suggested women priests and the end of confessions amongst other things…

 

[Aquinas11]

Confessing sins to another is not humility, it is humiliating. God forgives sins. We should be allowed to confess to God directly and ask for forgiveness directly

No because not only do we need priest as mediator to God but practically going to God directly on our own removes essential element of accountability. It’s much difficult to share with another in addition to God but also more rewarding. A problem shared is a problem halved, as saying goes. Plus as a sinner I can’t trust my mind alone to distinguish the true thoughts from false rationalizing thoughts about sin, hence need objective third party

 

[jeeter]

I hate to sound negative, but I blame a lot of the negative changes on the “Spirit of Vatican II”. Yes, V2 was a valid council, so I’m not referring to the council itself, but the attitude that’s developed afterward, essentially reducing the Faith to “just another religion.”

First, my opinion is that a Catholic education for our children is a RIGHT just like the Catholic Church believes healthcare is a right. But right now the average middle class family can no longer afford a Catholic education for their children. Sure if you are rich you can afford it. If you are poor you can in most cases get vouchers. But the middle class has been left behind by the Catholic Church and as a result, the middle-class is leaving the church.

When I was young, the Catholic School of the parish bright families together at the school. The school along with the church was the center of our universe. Without that school to unify people, people have migrated to the public schools and the Church has lost its importance. We need our schools and we need them to be affordable!

I agree. Catholic schools have historically played a key role in teaching kids the Faith, and contributing to a unique Catholic identity, that sets Catholicism apart. My pastor actually spoke about this recently, how when he was a kid it was unheard of for a Catholic family to pay for their kids to go to a Catholic school. But the schools require money for salaries, supplies, etc. If people aren’t donating money, or if funding dries up because of dwindling parish size, the school won’t be supported.

The lack of spiritual leaders who are among the people is causing people to look elsewhere and moving to other non-Catholic churches that have an abundance of spiritual leaders/ministers to tend to the spiritual needs of the people.

True, and part of that seems to be a lack of conviction that the Church is the true faith, established by Christ, with rules and laws for a reason. If I’m given a poor foundation in my faith, then what, in my mind, sets Catholicism, with its strict rules on marriage (to pick just one example) apart from Jimbo’s Church of Jesus that opened up down the street?

You hardly ever see a priest today except at mass.

Yep, and even when you do see a priest (or nun), you generally don’t recognize them as such, since they no longer wear traditional garb. Back to my thoughts on Catholic identity. If the pope and cardinals are recognizable for what they wear daily, wouldn’t it be a good thing for priests to do the same?

 

[Carmelite1983]

Over the past 5 years it seems our attendance at daily mass, not just weekend mass, has almost doubled.
When I traveled across the American Southwest last summer, many churches I went to for weekend mass were filled to the brim. Granted, some were not so full, but I can’t say I’m too worried about attendance as a whole.

 

[Cordelil]

Agree, the pope is way too political. He obviously has a socialist if not Marxist point of view. He seems to enjoys bashing capitalism. Seriously doubt he knows much about economics.

I wasn’t in the Church way back when but from my Catholic neighbors it seemed there was in the 1950’s a discernible Catholic culture. Their children went parochial schools, most of the boys wanted to be priests, families were much larger, and mass was attended weekly not every so often which for many is the case now.

The not enough priests issue is becoming more problematic as time goes by. In my diocese one of the ways they use to ameliorate it is importing clergy from West Africa.

The sex scandals involving clergy, religious and those who are employed by the Church is beyond the pale bad. I could care less when comparisons are made with society in general - with it being large sinful stain on the Roman Catholic Church. So far, they seem they have made progress on how to deal with it, but their is more room for improvement especially with regards to the bishops. Nevertheless, with state attorney generals now conducting their own investigations which mandates the Vatican must move more quickly in order to get a proper handle on it, which they seem reluctant to do.

When it comes to confession it is apparent that many rarely if never utilize it. Even if it was made more available which I personally find problematic I doubt many would avail themselves of it.

 

[1ke]

We need our schools and we need them to be affordable!

Oh wise one, give us the magic answer as to how to make Catholic schools affordable. Do you understand why they were “affordable” in the past?

As to women priests— that matter is closed. Read Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. It is not possible to ordain women. That is a doctrine. Ordaining a married man is a disciplinary matter that has been discuss and is not currently on the table in the Latin Rite.

As for the rest, it seems clear you lack a solid understanding of the Church and of the Sacraments.

 

[jeeter]

It’s physically impossible for a woman to be a priest. It’s like asking a man to be a mother. Neither meets the prerequisites.

Does that mean Caitlyn Jenner isn’t “really” a woman?

 

[beischel]

(name removed by moderator) - with all due respect, that is absolute silliness to say if it was in God’s plan 2,000 plus years ago we would have had this and that back then. The Jews did not eat pork. the Jews permitted divorce - while it was permitted by God however reluctantly, it was permitted. Today we eat pork, do not allow for divorce. There was no confession back in the Old Testament. We have confession today. So using what happened 2,000 to 10,000 years ago as justification for what we do today just does not hold water.

True, God does not contradict Himself, but the Bible has shown that He has changed his position at the bequest of man.

Second, He has vested the authority to change with Peter and the succession of Popes. “What you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven.” Jesus in His infinite wisdom knew the Church would have to be dynamic and change to meet the changing times and the spiritual needs of the people.