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Wesrock
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The first post reads like a “what a USA conservative evangelical thinks the Church should be.”
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beischel
Guest
Salmonslayer - what makes it physically impossible for a woman to be a priest? Nothing a priest does in the performance of their duties requires one to be of the male gender. If it is the name alone, so change the name for a female priest.
Or another solution would be for the Church to allow married priests to see if that would grown the number of men to be priests. What is happening now is no longer working.
Or another solution would be for the Church to allow married priests to see if that would grown the number of men to be priests. What is happening now is no longer working.
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EXdrinker
Guest
It sounds like you want the Catholic Church to change into a protestant church. What is the point? There are thousands of those already.
And, so we can quit wasting our time with women priests, Pope St. John Paul II (who will one day be a doctor of the church for his work on men and women in his theology of the body) gave us this gem…
“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”
And, so we can quit wasting our time with women priests, Pope St. John Paul II (who will one day be a doctor of the church for his work on men and women in his theology of the body) gave us this gem…
“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”
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beischel
Guest
1ke - I know why they were affordable in the past. We had more religious working in the schools. Hence one of the problems I identified - not enough religious because we are failing to make required changes.
Second, the Church has branched out into so many areas that they have spread themselves out too thin. For example. the Church offers mental health counseling. Why? Those services are already offered in the private sector. In our diocese, we used $400,000 to buy a house for the bishop. Why? Well he wanted to have a house near the seminary to entertain seminary students. Why not just use the residence at the cathedral that the previous Archbishop used. That money could have been better spent on Catholic education.
Third the money many diocese had was stripped away to pay for abuse settlements. The Church failed to protect children then and children today have to suffer. Most likely having married priests would have prevented the sexual perversion that has hurt the Church immensely. We are sexual beings and denying that to an individual can surely lead to sexual perversion, and thus the drain of financial resources to pay victims.
The Church needs to focus on critical areas and not waste money spreading itself too thin.
What I do understand very well is that a failure to change is killing off Church membership.
Second, the Church has branched out into so many areas that they have spread themselves out too thin. For example. the Church offers mental health counseling. Why? Those services are already offered in the private sector. In our diocese, we used $400,000 to buy a house for the bishop. Why? Well he wanted to have a house near the seminary to entertain seminary students. Why not just use the residence at the cathedral that the previous Archbishop used. That money could have been better spent on Catholic education.
Third the money many diocese had was stripped away to pay for abuse settlements. The Church failed to protect children then and children today have to suffer. Most likely having married priests would have prevented the sexual perversion that has hurt the Church immensely. We are sexual beings and denying that to an individual can surely lead to sexual perversion, and thus the drain of financial resources to pay victims.
The Church needs to focus on critical areas and not waste money spreading itself too thin.
What I do understand very well is that a failure to change is killing off Church membership.
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beischel
Guest
OK, EXdrinker to do away with the possibility of women priests, then let’s at least have the Church focus on married priests to try to get more priests. Or even married nuns for that matter. We need more religious and what we are doing now is just not working.
No, not trying to turn the Church into a Protestant Church. The Eucharist is always at the center and what they are missing. But how they run their churches and how they minister to the spiritual needs of the members.
Even our diocese sent a priest out to the local Crossroads church to see why they are getting so many Catholics.
No, not trying to turn the Church into a Protestant Church. The Eucharist is always at the center and what they are missing. But how they run their churches and how they minister to the spiritual needs of the members.
Even our diocese sent a priest out to the local Crossroads church to see why they are getting so many Catholics.
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
I’m surprised that people really still think this is a viewpoint that will be given any time on this website.We need to change and allow married priests and women priests.
I also completely disagree here. We need the visible signs of forgiveness provided by confession. General conferring of the sacrament makes no allowance for penance or for contrition, all it does is make it easy. Church, Catholic life, they shouldn’t be easy. They are, rightly, hard to follow, but incredibly rewarding to get right.Confessing sins to another is not humility, it is humiliating. God forgives sins. We should be allowed to confess to God directly and ask for forgiveness directly. Or, confer the sacrament at the beginning of mass.
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promethian_rule
Guest
This is wrong thinking. The shortage of priests has less to do with celibacy (and nothing to do with the all-male priesthood) and more to do with the lack of children in Catholic families in the West. For all the discussion of a priest shortage, there are only 10K fewer priests today than 60 years ago… but the problem is isolated to the West, where each family has an average of 2.3 children. If a man has a single son, he’s not going to push that son to go into the priesthood.The second issue I see is the need for priests. I used to be against women priests, but why not? I was always in favor of married priests. At one time we had married priests in the early Church years. Eastern Rite has married priests and it works there just fine. The lack of spiritual leaders who are among the people is causing people to look elsewhere and moving to other non-Catholic churches that have an abundance of spiritual leaders/ministers to tend to the spiritual needs of the people.
Touring Hohenzollern Castle, I appreciated that there were three alcoves in the banquet room: the first for kings (the firstborn sons), the second for military officers (the second born son) and the third for bishops (the third born sons). That holds true today too… if we want to ease pressure so that men feel inclined to become priests, then lay Catholic families need to start having enough children such that potential priests don’t also feel the burden of carrying on the genetic survival of their family!
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beischel
Guest
Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman, the visible sign of forgiveness is the priest stating to the congregation that their sins are forgiven. For penance the priest can ask everyone to say three Hail Marys, Our Fathers or whatever…just like they do with the few people going to confession today. It’s not that difficult.
I remember my daughter telling me that a priest asked her in confession if she masturbated. Frankly, inappropriate question of a woman. I wonder if that priest would have asked his mother that same question?
I remember my daughter telling me that a priest asked her in confession if she masturbated. Frankly, inappropriate question of a woman. I wonder if that priest would have asked his mother that same question?
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
One anecdote doesn’t discount the essential nature of personal confession. Some people on this website have issues with “Were my sins really forgiven?” even after absolution is declared. This would be even worse with your general confession idea, because they wouldn’t see that God’s love is greater than even their sins.
Also, part of what helps people avoid sin in the future is the counsel given after confessing. General absolution doesn’t allow for that. My priest’s advice in confession was essential in overcoming my vice of masturbation, and without it, I don’t know where I’d be.
God doesn’t, and shouldn’t, change for individuals. They need to change for Him, or get left in the dust. We are Christians, followers of Christ. It isn’t the other way around.
Also, part of what helps people avoid sin in the future is the counsel given after confessing. General absolution doesn’t allow for that. My priest’s advice in confession was essential in overcoming my vice of masturbation, and without it, I don’t know where I’d be.
God doesn’t, and shouldn’t, change for individuals. They need to change for Him, or get left in the dust. We are Christians, followers of Christ. It isn’t the other way around.
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beischel
Guest
promethium_rule, yes I agree, Parents with a single son are going to want grandchildren. Now if a single son were allowed to be a married priest, I am sure many more Catholic parents would push their children to a religious life.
The lack of children is caused by one main factor today. It has become too expensive to have a large family. My elementary Catholic education was under $200 a year. My high school education was about $500 a year. My college education at a Jesuit institution was $1,000 a semester my freshman year and $2,000 the last semester of my senior year. My father’s income was under $100,000 a year and there were three in the family.
My oldest daughter has five children. Elementary school tuition is around $5,000 a year per child. Catholic high school is around $10,000 to $15,000 per child per year. Colleges are $20,000 at the low end and typically around $30,000 + average on the high end. Middle-Class average kids get little to no financial assistance. It’s just too expensive to have a lot of children today and raise them with a Catholic education. I don’t know what my son-in-law makes, but he does well, but the cost of tuition is still a strain. The cost of tuition is up, so are incomes from when I was young, but the tuition costs have grown many more times over the growth of incomes.
Taxes are also way higher. Why many women have to work today. With two parents working and struggling, it is hard to set-aside time for parents educating their children in the faith and hence why there is more of a need now for affordable Catholic education.
The lack of children is caused by one main factor today. It has become too expensive to have a large family. My elementary Catholic education was under $200 a year. My high school education was about $500 a year. My college education at a Jesuit institution was $1,000 a semester my freshman year and $2,000 the last semester of my senior year. My father’s income was under $100,000 a year and there were three in the family.
My oldest daughter has five children. Elementary school tuition is around $5,000 a year per child. Catholic high school is around $10,000 to $15,000 per child per year. Colleges are $20,000 at the low end and typically around $30,000 + average on the high end. Middle-Class average kids get little to no financial assistance. It’s just too expensive to have a lot of children today and raise them with a Catholic education. I don’t know what my son-in-law makes, but he does well, but the cost of tuition is still a strain. The cost of tuition is up, so are incomes from when I was young, but the tuition costs have grown many more times over the growth of incomes.
Taxes are also way higher. Why many women have to work today. With two parents working and struggling, it is hard to set-aside time for parents educating their children in the faith and hence why there is more of a need now for affordable Catholic education.
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beischel
Guest
Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman, if you want personal confession, you can still have it. For those that don’t want it, you can have a group forgiveness. Even Jesus did not ask people to tell them their sins, He simply told them their sins were forgiven. Even the man on the cross along side him admitted he had done wrong, but did not list all his sins. He just admitted to Jesus he had sinned and Jesus forgave him. So we can emulate what Jesus did and ask people to recall their sins, and them administer forgiveness and penance.
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Dhc8_Type
Guest
I don’t know where Catholics come up with married men have less time for parishioners? My dad and grandpas were always available to their flocks and sure mom had to take us to hockey tournaments since dad would be busy on weekends.
But dad was in the stands for 30 years of sports and school programs. And at the hospital at 2am because so and so fell or so and so had a heart attack or so and so had a premie and our rural hospital wasn’t staffed for that.
Sure we lived in the parsonage, right next door to the local bishop and Monsignor. We weren’t poor and we didn’t have the fanciest things like the Monsignor’s Mercedes or. The bishop’s Land Rover. Yes my mom worked but she was the Lutheran school principal and 2nd grade teacher.
But dad was in the stands for 30 years of sports and school programs. And at the hospital at 2am because so and so fell or so and so had a heart attack or so and so had a premie and our rural hospital wasn’t staffed for that.
Sure we lived in the parsonage, right next door to the local bishop and Monsignor. We weren’t poor and we didn’t have the fanciest things like the Monsignor’s Mercedes or. The bishop’s Land Rover. Yes my mom worked but she was the Lutheran school principal and 2nd grade teacher.
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Fauken
Guest
From James:Even Jesus did not ask people to tell them their sins, He simply told them their sins were forgiven.
Or is James not good enough?“5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.”
We already do that at the very beginning of Mass. It just doesn’t cover mortal sins.So we can emulate what Jesus did and ask people to recall their sins, and them administer forgiveness and penance.
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HeDa
Guest
OP I will only address a few of your issues with the Catholic Church.
Pope Francis has called bishops to a meeting in February 2019 to make decisions regarding the sexual abuses taking place in the Church. Rules need to be the same for all dioceses of the Catholic Church in the whole world, in what to do and how to prevent future priests or lay members from abusing. The abuses have not only happened in the USA but in several countries and there are likely going to be more as it takes about 30 years on average before a person starts talking about being abused.
“Protestant” churches which have women priests and pastors also loose members. So ordaining women is not a solution.
As a convert I can say that going regularly to Confession has changed my life in more ways than I ever could imagine. Human beings need to hear with their ears that they are forgiven and start again. IT is not the priest who forgives sins but God through the priest.
The priests I know work about 60-70 hours/week. I don’t think a wife would accept that her husband is rarely at home. Talk with the wife married to a permanent deacon and she will say that it is very hard for both her and the family. It is not a schedule with being on call only certain days/nights but on call 24 hours/day if there is only one priest in the parish/town or even county.
I prefer Catholics who live their faith than those who are only Catholics “on paper”. Yes, the Church will be smaller but smaller has a chance to grow big and alive.
There has always been scandal in the Church. We have had a lot of councils during the Millenia to decide what the Catholic faith is all about. There was about 200 years during the Medevial ages when none of the popes of that time have been declared saints by the Church. People like St Francis of Assisi, St Dominic, St Albertus Magnus, St Bonaventura and St Thomas of Aquinas pointed to serious issues with the Catholic Church and were made saints instead.
Regarding education and health care it is also a government (national, regional and local) question as the government makes the rules the inhabitants of the country have to follow. And also where the taxpayers money is going. If you are not pleased with the current representatives then vote for different persons/party in the next election. It is your responsibility as a citizen to vote. “If not voting you have no right to complain.” as my father says.
Learn history, both Church history and how societies have developed during the ages.
Pope Francis has called bishops to a meeting in February 2019 to make decisions regarding the sexual abuses taking place in the Church. Rules need to be the same for all dioceses of the Catholic Church in the whole world, in what to do and how to prevent future priests or lay members from abusing. The abuses have not only happened in the USA but in several countries and there are likely going to be more as it takes about 30 years on average before a person starts talking about being abused.
“Protestant” churches which have women priests and pastors also loose members. So ordaining women is not a solution.
As a convert I can say that going regularly to Confession has changed my life in more ways than I ever could imagine. Human beings need to hear with their ears that they are forgiven and start again. IT is not the priest who forgives sins but God through the priest.
The priests I know work about 60-70 hours/week. I don’t think a wife would accept that her husband is rarely at home. Talk with the wife married to a permanent deacon and she will say that it is very hard for both her and the family. It is not a schedule with being on call only certain days/nights but on call 24 hours/day if there is only one priest in the parish/town or even county.
I prefer Catholics who live their faith than those who are only Catholics “on paper”. Yes, the Church will be smaller but smaller has a chance to grow big and alive.
There has always been scandal in the Church. We have had a lot of councils during the Millenia to decide what the Catholic faith is all about. There was about 200 years during the Medevial ages when none of the popes of that time have been declared saints by the Church. People like St Francis of Assisi, St Dominic, St Albertus Magnus, St Bonaventura and St Thomas of Aquinas pointed to serious issues with the Catholic Church and were made saints instead.
Regarding education and health care it is also a government (national, regional and local) question as the government makes the rules the inhabitants of the country have to follow. And also where the taxpayers money is going. If you are not pleased with the current representatives then vote for different persons/party in the next election. It is your responsibility as a citizen to vote. “If not voting you have no right to complain.” as my father says.
Learn history, both Church history and how societies have developed during the ages.
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
There are allowances for general absolution today. It’s only allowed if the lives of the congregation are in grave danger or the congregation could be deprived of confession for a long time and they can’t be absolved individually. Why change that? Shouldn’t going to confession be part of tempering your own wants in favor of doing the hard thing for God?
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CelticWarlord
Guest
According to Bishop Barron, statistics show that in the west for every new parishioner coming to the faith, six are leaving. That’s not good. In the third world Catholicism is growing very nicely.The Church in which country is in rapid decline?
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beischel
Guest
Agree somewhat, but you can have both. Not all religious have to live in a convent or a friary. It should be a personal choice to be celibate of married.
As for married priests having less time, well all I can say is the one priest we have today without a family has almost no time for parishioners. Three married priest with a little time each week for parishioners is better than one priest with almost no time.
We did have a married priest with a family in our diocese for a number of years. He was a converted Lutheran minister and it worked out just fine for the parish. It can be done and it is not the problem some people try to make it out to be.
As for married priests having less time, well all I can say is the one priest we have today without a family has almost no time for parishioners. Three married priest with a little time each week for parishioners is better than one priest with almost no time.
We did have a married priest with a family in our diocese for a number of years. He was a converted Lutheran minister and it worked out just fine for the parish. It can be done and it is not the problem some people try to make it out to be.
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CelticWarlord
Guest
Totally agree. This is one of the reasons I have not become Catholic, for all I love the Church and the Mass.Confessing sins to another is not humility, it is humiliating.
I think your two part essay is a fine example of some of the needs which ought to be addressed. Most of these can be accomplished without any change in doctrinal issues. As far as a married priesthood goes, I greatly admire those who choose the celibate lifestyle. But the founding Pope, Peter, was married himself. I have no problem with it.
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beischel
Guest
Fauken - that is not a quote from Jesus. My point was clearly Jesus never asked people to tell Him their sins in order to obtain forgivenes. Second if we are to take the Bible literally, then the only requirement for salvation is that you believe.
John 5:24
Romans 10:9
Romans 1:16
Acts 2:38
1 Timothy 2:5 which right there implies that no one but Jesus is the mediator.
John 5:24
Romans 10:9
Romans 1:16
Acts 2:38
1 Timothy 2:5 which right there implies that no one but Jesus is the mediator.
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Patagonia1
Guest
There is evidence to indicate that St. Peter was widowed before he became the first Pope.But the founding Pope, Peter, was married himself. I have no problem with it.
That said, I have mixed feelings on the women priest issue and the married male priest issue. I think someone said that priests cannot marry because the Church is the bride and the priest is the bridegroom and a bridegroom cannot have two brides. With that logic, Eastern Rite Catholics would not be in full communion with the Church due to married priests and converted married priests (former Protestant priests turned Catholic) would have to be laicized.
For me it really comes down to the economics of the priesthood. Let’s say that allowing priests to be married triples the amount of time that all priests have to devote to their congregations, simply due to the fact that there are more priests. That seems like a no-brainer to me to allow priests the option to marry.
At the same time I think there is a lot of truth that allowing men with homosexual tendencies to become priests has plagued the priesthood. Seminarian abuse is real, and is in large part due to the homosexual temptation of homosexual priests and bishops being predominantly around vulnerable young men trying to become priests themselves. I think there is little doubt that this has both corrupted and turned away many young men who would have made exceptional priests otherwise.
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