The church is losing touch with working-class Catholics

[Raxus]

I don’t consider $50,000/yr a “poor” income.

Lord, I wish I had that much a year.

 

[Allie1]

But many don’t because at 67, people can collect the maximum amount of Social Security that they earned.

In a thread about the church being out of touch with the working class…

A statement of being surprised that a 67 year old is still working, not collecting social security and moving into low income housing, appeared to be out of touch with this working class.

Anyways, full retirement age is 67. However, if they delay collecting social security until age 70 they get 132% of their monthly benefit.

 

[stpurl]

Not only that, Allie, but they’re also still earning a pension plan if they’re still working.

And if it’s only your income, that extra can be a big difference. Even those of us who can collect a bit more due to being widowed or divorced (provided we were married more than 10 years), is nowhere near the amount we would have had with a ‘two income SS couple’.

Plus do you have any idea what the average income is for ONE Social security paycheck? It isn’t that much!!!

 

[farronwolf]

Anyways, full retirement age is 67. However, if they delay collecting social security until age 70 they get 132% of their monthly benefit.

Many people have no real clue as to when and how much one can draw from SS. Yes, maximum earnings are at age 70, also the age at which all qualified people must start to draw whether they like it or not.

I just cringe when people ask “how old do I have to be to stop filing taxes”, or “is social security taxable”?

The easy answer for me is, if you are poor enough you can quit filing taxes, and nope social security won’t be taxable if you are that poor. Of course then I have to try to explain all the nuances of this stuff.

 

[Sarcelle]

I see your point here.

For many if not most of us, the view we have the Church, is our local parish. I have attended church is different parishes but I see a few commonalities.

Aside from the priest and a few parish employees, there seems to be a group of elderly, retired people who run the day to day things. The parish schedule seems to run around their schedule. Parish activities are scheduled during working hours.

For those of us who work for a living and not yet dependent on social security, this schedule shuts us out of parish life.

I go to mass faithfully but apart from that, I do not really participate in parish life.

It’s probably worst for those who work two or three jobs and have small children to take care of.

 

[stpurl]

Well almost but not quite in that yes, there is a poverty threshold but there are I believe at least 8 US states where Social Security income IS taxed.

 

[stpurl]

Back in the day again there were pretty much ‘noon day’ Masses (short) where people who worked could go. As for socialization, I grew up in Philly with its plethora of parishes with accompanying parish schools, and in the 1960s the majority of the mothers were still home (when my father died in the late 1960s and my mother had to go to work we were quite the anomaly, my sibs and I, of being ‘latch key’ children. So really it is rather a new phenomenon for any ‘class” (since the majority of middle class and even many upper class women also work for a living now at least part time) which was not the case prior to the 1970s.

So we’re talking pretty much over societal changes of the last 40-50 years in which not only did we lose a huge number of Catholic schools (a social of socialization for parents) and a ginormous amount of women to the work force, but we also changed the liturgy, changed the way most children learned the Faith (and now THEIR children), changed to an extent the whole focus of the Mass, and we’re only worrying about ‘the working class”?

EVERYBODY pretty much now is ‘working’, regardless of class.

I repeat, if one were to refocus on authentic Catholic teachings then the solutions would be presented as they should be, by the laity. Instead of the committees of clergy solemnly trying to determine by all kinds of surveys what ‘needs’ must be met, the people in a given parish could, as they became conversant not with the latest “mission statements’ or ‘diocese drive’, find what they needed as members of Parish St X. Some might find that Mass attendance and getting small groups together would be best; others might get the CYO booming, others might focus on more Bible studies. None of this ‘one size fits all we must scold you into harmony and plenty for you are Church” jazz!

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

But what I’m not clear about is…

Are they leaving the Catholic Church for churches with better worship schedules…

Or leaving Christianity altogether?

 

[phil3]

I think too many churches have become too big. The church I was going to before Covid had 1800 families in it,

If you think about it that is something like 7200 or more people.

except to visit. I havent been to a church with less than 1200 families in decades.

When I was growing up my church had about 100 families. We all knew one another. I went to school with the same kids, we all did the same thing. Are parents worked together.

We were like family in so many ways.

That same church today has over 1,000 families. The town has grown from 2000 people to well over 15,000 to 20,000 people. I could be even larger I havent lived there in years.

There is a lot of reason the church is losing membership as a percentage and what I wrote is one of many reasons. To just state “Catholics are losing touch with the church” is an over simplification of why it is happening.

 

[farronwolf]

Or it could be 13 states, but only if your income is above a certain level. Many of the states income level is well above that of the federal threshold. I don’t believe any of the states thresholds are lower than the federal threshold.

So if you are poor, social security isn’t taxed.

States That Tax Social Security Benefits | Kiplinger

 

[Peeps]

In a thread about the church being out of touch with the working class…

A statement of being surprised that a 67 year old is still working, not collecting social security and moving into low income housing, appeared to be out of touch with this working class.

Anyways, full retirement age is 67. However, if they delay collecting social security until age 70 they get 132% of their monthly benefit.

Oh, I can definitely see your point that if you earned a low income all your life, your social security payment will be a pittance, not enough to live on.

But…working at 67? Unless you were working at a good-paying job (like my lab job), you’re just not going to earn a lot of money waitressing (hard work) or packing boxes (maybe now you will earn a lot at Amazon, but that’s darned hard work!), cleaning hotel rooms (also hard work), providing child care (the hardest work!), working a cash register (lots of standing).

Although a lot of 60-somethings are in pretty good shape, we are definitely not where we were in our 50s! And nowhere near where we were in our 40s!

Health care isn’t an issue, because Medicare kicks in at that age (or younger, I think?).

I just think that working in a low-paying job at age 67 = collecting a low Social Security payment at age 67. Staying home and living on SS means that you don’t need a car and gas, work clothing, bag lunches/dinners, really good work shoes, etc. And…it’s more realistic healthwise–working is HARD!

I just don’t know–when I was in my 50s, I might have agreed with many of you and said, “Yes,’ it’s “out of touch” to think that elderly people don’t have to work.” But now that I’m in my 60s (63) and I’m in stellar health–I just don’t know how they can do it once they get older and more tired/feeble/less mobile, etc. I think even if you need the money, the time comes when…you just can’t do it anymore, and 67 is getting up there, IMO. There are days I feel 80–and this is one of those days–snow on the ground, slippery roads, and I know the parking lot will be an ice rink and it scares me. I wish I could stay home today.

 

[Jen95]

Yes - these huge churches are awful, I think. Conventional wisdom is, the more conservative a diocese is, the more vocations to the priesthood there are.
Then you can have more priests, and (perhaps) smaller parishes.

 

[Jen95]

I think most people are put off by the Churches teachings on contraceptives and sterilization.

Most people feel the responsible thing to do is be sterilized after .02 children.

The fear is reproducing yourself into an inescapable pit of poverty.

I went along with what the Church teaches I have five going on six children I haven’t the slightest inkling how this is going to work and most people think I’m simple minded and stupidly naive.

I have to hope God will make good on things and keep working hard.

Otherwise I’m just some lunatic talking to himself on a spinning blue rock in a nihilistic void of meaninglessness.
[/quote]

Keep the faith! Be strong, for the sake of your wife and children! It’s tough when they’re all little, but it will get less chaotic when more of them are school age.
“Most people” may not approve but you don’t need the world’s approval.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Probably moving to a watered down version of Christianity because that seems to be the trend for Catholics.

 

[stpurl]

It seems to be the trend for everything. Other non-Catholic Christians, other religions, all areas of education, media, art, music, etc. Simplistic without being truly simple. Breadth without depth. Bias and slant heavily weighing ‘one’ aspect at the expense of all others. Playing to the ‘least common denominator’. Writing and composition to the barest minimum (I.e. 6th grade reading level). Making things ‘inclusive’ by trying to focus on one or two areas that ‘everybody likes’ and nothing else. We are not just a lukewarm, but a ‘watered down’ people.

 

[goout]

Wow. Such coldness in the responses here. Imagine what it feels like in real life for these struggling people to attend mass shoulder to shoulder with these attitudes.

A person has to intentionally find reasons not to go to Mass. Busy-ness is no excuse, when the vast majority of people in all classes have time to participate in entertainment complexes like cable tv, internet, cell phone usage, sporting events. Not saying people should not have those, but people show what they value with how they prioritize their own time.

Not to beat a dead horse too hard but, I mentor a young teenager for 4 years now, and the biggest challenge he and his family face is time management. Mountains of time are wasted by able bodied and intelligent people just wallowing in passive electronic entertainment. And this is a single mom who works hard at a job…so time is obviously valuable and precious. And that spare time is spent passively. We’ve set up numerous opportunities for the young man to go to church, and instead he “stayed up too late watching tv” and slept through til 2pm.

“Busy” is a lame excuse for not going to Mass. Worshipping God is not something we fit into a busy schedule. Worshipping God makes a busy life meaningful and manageable,.

 

[JMMJ]

I have worked 12 hour shifts, straight, for months at a time because it was what I had to do to keep a roof over my head. 6 days a week, usually including weekends. Thank God I didn’t have kids at the time.

Exhaustion is a real thing. I think the judgement on this thread is really awful.

I don’t necessarily believe the Church is out of touch, but apparently many members of the flock are.

 

[goout]

I have worked 12 hour shifts, straight, for months at a time because it was what I had to do to keep a roof over my head. 6 days a week, usually including weekends. Thank God I didn’t have kids at the time.

Exhaustion is a real thing. I think the judgement on this thread is really awful.

I don’t necessarily believe the Church is out of touch, but apparently many members of the flock are.

I’ve worked 60 hours a week for 30 years even with kids at home. Mass is a priority. Please don’t reflex to calling others judgmental for differing experiences and viewpoints. Not productive.

 

[JMMJ]

What else is it to be called, then? The posts on this thread express judgement of fellow Catholics, at best, of having their priorities out of order.

 

[goout]

What else is it to be called, then? The posts on this thread express judgement of fellow Catholics, at best, of having their priorities out of order.

Once again:
I mentor a now 17 year old man who’s main challenge in life (including getting him to Church) is getting the ear buds off his head and getting him off the couch. His is a nice kid who is wasting away in non productivity. He like millions of others has time to attend church services and do homework but it’s not a priority. In our small town town he is one of about 80 kids in this program, and there are literally millions of others just like him.

What I truly need from you is a real solution to this problem, not reflexive judgment of my motives.
Give me a solution to the pandemic of time prioritization problems. And that will help solve the problem of people who are too busy to attend one of the 17 Masses my parish offers. (not to mention probably hundreds of other church services available in a town of about 17,000 people).