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Stephen_says
Guest
17 masses?! Don’t you think that’s kind of out of the ordinary for catholic parishes to offer that many masses a week? I think you’re very lucky to have that available!
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JMMJ
Guest
You lost me. The article was about working class adults who have to work long hours at physical jobs and are too exhausted to do anything else. Add to that, they may not make enough money to have reliable transportation, and many are required to work weekends. What does that have to do with teenagers who may be lacking in motivation?
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benjammin
Guest
As a working class catholic myself, it can be hard but not impossible to get to mass. Honestly increase vocations, and you’ll have more priests and more masses and you’ll get more vocations by adhering to orthodoxy. Also, we can be orthodox and respect worker rights and such. Sadly that’s been co-opted by the left and even the right speaks out of both sides of their mouth in regards to labor by appealing to blue collar ideals while undercutting workers in the name of profits.
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goout
Guest
6am x5
9am x3
2 on Saturday
5 on Sunday
And a couple of evening masses
There is plentiful opportunity for folks to attend Mass, IF they desire it and prioritize it.
It’s common (before the pandemic) for parents to pull up outside on Sunday and drop kids off for “PSR”, which by the way happens conveniently between Masses. And the parents will go do their thing for an hour and come back to pick the kids up. I suppose it’s good for the kids to “get” their religion class and “get” their sacraments.
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farronwolf
New member
The article has a wide range of issues that points out why people don’t go to Mass.
Is there a disconnect between pastors and their flock, in many cases absolutely.
Are there instances where people are just too darn tired, can’t attend because of work, aren’t getting a message that they can relate to, feel overlooked, disagree with the direction of the parish, or a whole host of other things. Yes.
So for the sake of argument, some indicate that if there is a will there is a way to get to Mass. This may be true.
So if there was a will, why have so many parishes closed their schools, or made them only accessible to the wealthy. Can the shoe be put on the other foot?
Is there a disconnect between pastors and their flock, in many cases absolutely.
Are there instances where people are just too darn tired, can’t attend because of work, aren’t getting a message that they can relate to, feel overlooked, disagree with the direction of the parish, or a whole host of other things. Yes.
So for the sake of argument, some indicate that if there is a will there is a way to get to Mass. This may be true.
So if there was a will, why have so many parishes closed their schools, or made them only accessible to the wealthy. Can the shoe be put on the other foot?
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goout
Guest
Teenagers grow up in households with adults? Who set the tone for life? Who can’t prioritize activities or manage time?
I hope I’m not being judgmental.
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JMMJ
Guest
So if I were trying to help mentor a family with these issues, I would have a lot of questions before I decided I knew what the issues for that family were.
My questions would also include, “What can I (or my family) do to help lighten your load? What kind of support would you find helpful?”. “Would it help if I brought dinner by one night a week?” “Would it help if I gave you a ride when you need one?”
Then I would say, “You are an important part of our church community, and I want to support you however I am able to. Will you be willing to work with me to develop a plan?”
I would not tell them they aren’t able to prioritize or manage their time. Obviously, if they (or their kid) is involved in a mentorship program, they are already aware that there is room for improvement.
In other words, I would assume the best of the people I was trying to help and try to partner with them.
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goout
Guest
Right. You could assume that many people have done each of these steps at least 5 times and hit the brick wall of indifference. And I’ll head off your next post by saying yes, we are still hopeful and trying.goout:
So if I were trying to help mentor a family with these issues, I would have a lot of questions before I decided I knew what the issues for that family were.
My questions would also include, “What can I (or my family) do to help lighten your load? What kind of support would you find helpful?”. “Would it help if I brought dinner by one night a week?” “Would it help if I gave you a ride when you need one?”
Then I would say, “You are an important part of our church community, and I want to support you however I am able to. Will you be willing to work with me to develop a plan?”
I would not tell them they aren’t able to prioritize or manage their time. Obviously, if they (or their kid) is involved in a mentorship program, they are already aware that there is room for improvement.
In other words, I would assume the best of the people I was trying to help and try to partner with them.
I personally have tried literally each of these numerous times. Spent loads of money and time with activities, tutors, service projects…
They cannot get him up on time or get him away from the tv to go to church, or anything else for that matter. And this is pandemic.
What you are not hearing is that poverty and being busy is not an excuse for missing Mass. It’s prioritization of time and activities.
One final observation: where I live the growing segment of the parish population is impoverished Hispanics. They are having large families, working grueling hours, and going to Mass. They go because Mass is a priority. And they are lifting the parish up.
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JMMJ
Guest
My advice was for helping families, or working class adults. None of what I suggested is going to motivate a 17 year old. Most don’t want to have anything to do with going to church, for whatever reason. The cake is baked by the time a kid is 17, with regards to this. I would suggest setting a good example (sounds like you are, and that you are doing good work) is the best thing you can do. When 17 turns 25, he will remember it and it may lead him back to the Church at that time, after he has worked through a lot of the issues kids younger than that need to learn to navigate.
I think we are talking past eachother here. Your focus is the 17 year old kid, and mine has been the working class adults who struggle.
I try to assume the best of everyone. Nobody is perfect, including myself, especially when it comes to this. It doesn’t mean I don’t call out mistakes when I see them, though. Applying judgement to the problem articulated in this thread is a mistake, IMO. It isn’t what is going to fix the problem, and it is likely going to make it worse.
I think we are talking past eachother here. Your focus is the 17 year old kid, and mine has been the working class adults who struggle.
I try to assume the best of everyone. Nobody is perfect, including myself, especially when it comes to this. It doesn’t mean I don’t call out mistakes when I see them, though. Applying judgement to the problem articulated in this thread is a mistake, IMO. It isn’t what is going to fix the problem, and it is likely going to make it worse.
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goout
Guest
My focus is the topic of the thread. The example I gave is of the kind of misappropriated priorities that destroy time management and allow things like church to fall away, and this applies to any economic class. I’m giving you direct experience as to why church ain’t happening for a lot of people anymore, and you don’t like what you’re hearing. No problem. Happy Thanksgiving/.
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JMMJ
Guest
Same to you!
farronwolf
New member
Not all people are going to be good at certain things. Not everyone is going to think and act like we want them to, or as we think they should. Some have no desire to change.
If all the efforts have been made that you say, maybe it is a lost cause and time and energy should be spent elsewhere.
If people aren’t willing and interested in helping themselves, it is usually a waste of time to continue to try. I learned that a long time ago.
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Maximian
Guest
Shouldn’t that be “Working class Catholics are losing touch with the Church?”
Im reminded of the London daily which posted the headline “Storm over English Channel: Continent cut off.”
Im reminded of the London daily which posted the headline “Storm over English Channel: Continent cut off.”
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goout
Guest
At this point, productive changes aren’t likely happening. Accompaniment is what we will do. And if that leads him to Christ even while he lives a life of dependency, then that’s a good thing.goout:
Not all people are going to be good at certain things. Not everyone is going to think and act like we want them to, or as we think they should. Some have no desire to change.
If all the efforts have been made that you say, maybe it is a lost cause and time and energy should be spent elsewhere.
If people aren’t willing and interested in helping themselves, it is usually a waste of time to continue to try. I learned that a long time ago.
Turning your back is not an option just because the kid doesn’t produce.
My point in all this is: the article badly glosses over the real challenges the Church faces with people of all classes. He does a disservice to the impoverished by giving them false narratives regarding the Church’s ministry. The author engages in political and class warfare and ignores the real struggle for virtue that everyone faces.
farronwolf
New member
Without knowing the numbers and how the data was collected regarding Mass attendance by the different income ranges, we can’t say for certain.
However taking your example of the kid you are trying to help and projecting it on to every other lower income family or person isn’t realistic either.
Looking at the chart, one should notice an interesting trend. From 1970 to 1980, the wealthiest group when from second lowest attendance to highest attendance, and remains there today based on the study. The lowest income group has and remains at the lowest attendance.
It is hard to tell from the chart whether the 2nd and 3rd level income groups swapped positions, but there is certainly a divergence between the two, with the 3rd income level ending up with higher Mass attendance. Based on the study, the causes can’t be determined, but there certainly is a correlation between income and Mass attendance.
In simplistic form this would appear as other things, that based on income the luxury of attending Mass or nice dinners or whatever we want to look at does have some bearing on income.
However taking your example of the kid you are trying to help and projecting it on to every other lower income family or person isn’t realistic either.
Looking at the chart, one should notice an interesting trend. From 1970 to 1980, the wealthiest group when from second lowest attendance to highest attendance, and remains there today based on the study. The lowest income group has and remains at the lowest attendance.
It is hard to tell from the chart whether the 2nd and 3rd level income groups swapped positions, but there is certainly a divergence between the two, with the 3rd income level ending up with higher Mass attendance. Based on the study, the causes can’t be determined, but there certainly is a correlation between income and Mass attendance.
In simplistic form this would appear as other things, that based on income the luxury of attending Mass or nice dinners or whatever we want to look at does have some bearing on income.
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VanitasVanitatum
Guest
No, because of work they are having a hard time attending and it makes sense for there to be some Masses times that cater to them which is the main point in the article.
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catholiclala
Guest
I read both articles the second did seem to be a case of I don’t want to play by the Church’s rules, which did make me roll my eyes, but the first did bring up valid points that many here seem unable or unwilling to address. If people are saying the homilies only focus on two issues, that is a legit issue, even if the two issues are important. Tunnel vision is real and it is exclusionary. It’s like anybody who has issues with the Church they has a problem, not hey let’s look at some of these things, I may not be able to relate but maybe there is validity. I remember when I was working two jobs and worked weekends. There were often not Mass times available for me. Was that me not sacrificing and prioritizing?
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catholiclala
Guest
Thank you! Some of these responses are shockingly judgmental and exactly the kind of attitudes that keep some away from Church. Instead of trying to understand and meet people were they are at concerning real issues, the concerns are dismissed. If someone doesn’t want to agree with the Church (as in the second article) that’s one thing, but to say hey I’m struggling with temporal needs and the fact that you don’t want to address social issues that are impacting parishioners because you only find two issues worth discussing, that is worth acknowledgment.
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goout
Guest
It could certainly be different in other areas:JMMJ:
Thank you! Some of these responses are shockingly judgmental and exactly the kind of attitudes that keep some away from Church. Instead of trying to understand and meet people were they are at concerning real issues, the concerns are dismissed. If someone doesn’t want to agree with the Church (as in the second article) that’s one thing, but to say hey I’m struggling with temporal needs and the fact that you don’t want to address social issues that are impacting parishioners because you only find two issues worth discussing, that is worth acknowledgment.
My parish stumbles over itself to accommodate those who:
Work long hours
Have no transportation
Feel unwelcome
Want to socialize
Speak Spanish
We have everything from Christian movie nights to Mass at any conceivable hour of the day. Pickup services, at home outreach.
There is a glut of social and temporal needs addressed by the parish. You can’t make people prioritize Mass. But short of giving them a bar of gold at the door, the parish is doing everything possible to accommodate economically and socially disadvantaged people.
I just honestly think the article is distorted nonsense that plays into class and political warfare. And the author is either out of touch with what really happens in Catholic life or is writing in bad faith.
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catholiclala
Guest
As you say that is your parish. My parish is great except when it comes to Mass Times, but they are working on it. If people have these issues how is reporting on it warfare? This is these people’s reality. Just because you don’t see it in your community doesn’t mean it’s not important or doesn’t exist? I think some are just uncomfortable dealing with these issues. Shouldn’t the Church community be the place to be addressing some of these? Isn’t the Church supposed to support the poor and be charitable? Yet, here are the poor but their concerns are not important? Do their voices not matter? I’m confused.
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