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mrs_abbott
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Edit: almost forgot my favorite pejorative, “Popery”.
A fragrant aroma before God.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
Clever! 
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Clever!
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Eden
Guest
More from the Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians:
Chapter 2. Be subject to the bishop, etc.
For, since you are subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ, you appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order, by believing in His death, you may escape from death. It is therefore necessary that, as you indeed do, so without the bishop** you should do nothing, but should also be subject to the presbytery, as to the apostle of Jesus Christ**, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall [at last] be found. It is fitting also that the deacons, as being [the ministers] of the mysteries of Jesus Christ, should in every respect be pleasing to all. For they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would do fire.
Chapter 3. Honour the deacons, etc.
In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostesl. Apart from these, there is no Church. Concerning all this, I am persuaded that you are of the same opinion. For I have received the manifestation of your love, and still have it with me, in your bishop, whose very appearance is highly instructive, and his meekness of itself a power; whom I imagine even the ungodly must reverence, seeing they are also pleased that I do not spare myself. But shall I, when permitted to write on this point, reach such a height of self-esteem, that though being a condemned man, I should issue commands to you as if I were an apostle? (This is the quote from Eric Svendsen! Look at the context. St. Ignatius is simply expressing humility in discussing the honor which should be given to those in his position. The chapter immediately following Svendsen’s quote is entitled “I have need of humility.” This particular chapter is entitled “Honor the deacons, etc.” And only several sentences before Eric’s quote, St. Ignatius says “Apart from these, there is no Church.” Who’s manipulating quotes, Simon?)
Chapter 7. The same continued.
Be on your guard, therefore, against such persons. And this will be the case with you if you are not puffed up, and continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ our God, and the bishop, and the enactments of the apostles. He that is within the altar is pure, but he that is without is not pure; that is, he who does anything apart from the bishop, and presbytery, and deacons, such a man is not pure in his conscience.
Chapter 13. Conclusion.
The love of the Smyrnæans and Ephesians salutes you. Remember in your prayers** the Church which is in Syria**, from which also I am not worthy to receive my appellation, being the last of them. Fare well in Jesus Christ while you continue subject to the bishop, as to the command [of God], and in like manner to the presbytery. And, every man, love one another with an undivided heart. Let my spirit be sanctified by yours, not only now, but also when I shall attain to God. For I am as yet exposed to danger. But the Father is faithful in Jesus Christ to fulfil both mine and your petitions: in whom may you be found unblameable.
newadvent.org/fathers/0106.htm
Simon, you really should have consulted the original document on this one, too. Svendsen pulled out an innocuous quote again, from a document that clearly attests to the existence of a visible Church with a hierarchy to whom its members are subject.
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clmowry
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…wonders if anyone actually comes here to have “dialogue”…
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mrs_abbott
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No, just copying and pasting.…wonders if anyone actually comes here to have “dialogue”…
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Eden
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This is from a letter to the Church in Rome from St. Ignatius, the bishop, who was aware that his martyrdom was imminent.
St. Ignatius was not free when he wrote this letter. He was condemned to death for his faith. This quote is in no way an indictment of the role of bishop.
Chapter 9. Pray for the church in Syria.
Remember in your prayers the Church in Syria, which now has God for its shepherd, instead of me. Jesus Christ alone will oversee it, and your love [will also regard it]. But as for me, I am ashamed to be counted one of them; for indeed I am not worthy, as being the very last of them, and one born out of due time. 1 Corinthians 15:8-9 But I have obtained mercy to be somebody, if I shall attain to God. My spirit salutes you, and the love of the Churches that have received me in the name of Jesus Christ, and not as a mere passer-by. For even those Churches which were not near to me in the way, I mean according to the flesh, have gone before me, city by city, [to meet me.]
St. Ignatius states here that he was once, as the bishop, shepherd of the Church in Syria. Clearly he is speaking about both a visible Church and a hierarchy.
The full document is here:
newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm
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myfavoritmartin
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Just waiting for the storm to settle a little, didn’t think that I’d get everyone involved so fast.…wonders if anyone actually comes here to have “dialogue”…
goin for a haircut in a bit but intend on being around tonight.
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myfavoritmartin
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Seems pretty commonplace on the forum… Don’t you think?No, just copying and pasting.
It’s how I knew the manner I would be responded against, I viewed my previous ECF thread…Always walk in prepared, right?
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Eden
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Unfortunately, you did not prepare by reading the actual documents in question. You simply read Eric Svendsen’s blog and then pasted his blog page into a series of posts in this thread. You are clearly not seeking truth or you would have expended more energy into researching the context of the original documents before posting.Seems pretty commonplace on the forum… Don’t you think?
It’s how I knew the manner I would be responded against, I viewed my previous ECF thread…Always walk in prepared, right?
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myfavoritmartin
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Some of my work is from Eric, but I’ve never as far as I know been to his blog.
Eden, dont think I am done here.
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myfavoritmartin
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My opinion … Christ is the rock whom the church is built but will get into that later.
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Mannyfit75
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So Jesus in a way is Kepha? Since Kepha in Aramaic means Rock?
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:17-19.
The name Peter came from the Greek Word, Petros which means Rock.
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Bishopite
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Yes Tertullian was Catholic but later in his life fell into the heresy of Montanism, however, he was Catholic in his theology save his Montanistic failings and most certainly believed Apostolic succession and one Church established by Christ which was then deposited down through succession to the other bishops as his writings prove…And I quote you saying tertullian “Tertullian was VERY Catholic”
hmmmmm
Tertullian
"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (*Demurrer Against the Heretics *20 [A.D. 200]).
“[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to them [the apostles] can, as I must here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those very churches which the apostles founded in person, by declaring the gospel to them directly themselves . . . If then these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches—those molds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, [and] Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savors of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the rule, has its origin in the tradition of the apostles, and whether all other doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood” (ibid., 21).
"But if there be any [heresies] which are bold enough to plant [their origin] in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [their first] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men—a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. **For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid., 32). **
“Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic Church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith” (ibid.).
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp
What Catholic and Church mean—
"Catholic comes from the Greek katholikos, the combination of two words, kata (concerning), and holos (whole). According to the Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology, the word catholic comes from a Greek word meaning “regarding the whole,” or, more simply, “universal” or “general.” The word church comes from the Greek ecclesia, which means “those called out,” as in those summoned out of the world at large to form a distinct society. So the Catholic Church is made up of those called out and gathered into the universal society founded by Christ."
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0501fea4.asp
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Eden
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His website is a blog. If you’ve been to his website, you’ve been to his blog. Mr. Svendsen’s site www.ntrmin.org is a “Real Clear Theology Blog”. “They do the theology for you… so you don’t hurt yourself”. (Or check actual documents yourself).
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mrs_abbott
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Thanks! That’s what I was looking for . . . your opinion.
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mrs_abbott
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It definitely helps.Seems pretty commonplace on the forum… Don’t you think?
It’s how I knew the manner I would be responded against, I viewed my previous ECF thread…Always walk in prepared, right?
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myfavoritmartin
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1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:** and that Rock was Christ. **
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myfavoritmartin
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Wrong,
I’ve read many many ECF’s and the contextual verbage around the quotes I’ve used.
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myfavoritmartin
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4th century church councels, is that the best you’ve got. Even I know this was after Romes grab for power.
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myfavoritmartin
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The catholic church from the first and second and dare i say into the 3rd century(certainly to Ireneaus 190 ad) is not and was not the Church at Rome as we now know it. And the ECF’s did not consider it as such…
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Eden
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Unfortunately, you didn’t take the time to consult the actual documents for this thread topic. You just pasted Eric’s quotes and commentary. Eric says “We do the theology… So you don’t hurt yourselves”. I disagree. I think you hurt your credibility by trusting his evaluations.
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