The Church's Ultimate Trial

[Crumpy]

The Church’s ultimate trial in CCC

2. Question: What does ‘political form of secular messianism’ mean?

/B]

One thing I can say here is that I do not agree with those who take a casual attitude towards the CCC. You know, they say, just sit down with it and go through it.

I find the catechism very technical. Fr Corapi on EWTN mentions that he is not aware of any other serious attempt in the church to do what he did, which was to produce a series to explain the catechism.

How should I say this? I don’t think he has explained everything in the catechism. If he did, I can’t tell that he did, from samples of things that I have read.

There supposedly has been published a companion that expands all the footnotes, which the average person may not be otherwise able to look up at home. I’ve seen such in the internet, but I didn’t pick it up yet. I think it was for the first edition, instead of the second.

Anyway, now this question. “a political form of secular messianism.” I think Hitler in pre-WWII Germany was certainly one of these. His philosophy replaced all of Catholic and Lutheran belief in Germany, with a worship of him and his ideas and his will.

I think Communism in Russia was the same, where God was totally kicked out, churches were turned into libraries, warehouses, or museums, and Lenin and “the state” were worshipped in the place of God.

Right now in North Korea, the same thing is going on with the virtual apotheosis (turning him into a god) of Kim Jong Il. ‘’

On the general question of interpretation of eschatological prophecy in the Bible, I don’t think the Catholic Church is slouching. The Biblical prophecies keep us attuned to the future, particularly to the afterlife of the Kingdom of God. Their ultimate fulfillment is there.

The specific question of an apostasy in the Church certainly would require a great deal of certainty to diagnose. We can look at past history and see such in the Great Schism (with the Orthodox Churches) and possibly the same to some extent with the Protestant Reformation. These involved apostasies to varying extent.

When the Holy Father goes to the United Nations, the representatives listen politely, then go on with business as usual, that is a form of turning away, of apostasy from the truth.

Perhaps we will simply know it, when we see it.

 

[Protestant101]

For those of you who have never encountered Protestant101, you should know that he is a a Seventh Day Adventist, a group which many Protestants consider to be a cult band which sprang from the same religious movement which gave us the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Being an SDA his views come from the hate-filled writings of the false prophet Ellen G White.

Gary

Very good Gary. LOL, thanks for the great exposure. Now everyone knows who they are “encountering” as if I have somehow kept it secret

 

[garysibio]

Very good Gary. LOL, thanks for the great exposure. Now everyone knows who they are “encountering” as if I have somehow kept it secret

Are you ever going to answer my post on the other thread? You asked for evidence, I provided it, you disappeared.

Gary

 

[Franciscan]

One thing I can say here is that I do not agree with those who take a casual attitude towards the CCC. You know, they say, just sit down with it and go through it.

I find the catechism very technical. Fr Corapi on EWTN mentions that he is not aware of any other serious attempt in the church to do what he did, which was to produce a series to explain the catechism.

How should I say this? I don’t think he has explained everything in the catechism. If he did, I can’t tell that he did, from samples of things that I have read.

There supposedly has been published a companion that expands all the footnotes, which the average person may not be otherwise able to look up at home. I’ve seen such in the internet, but I didn’t pick it up yet. I think it was for the first edition, instead of the second.

Anyway, now this question. “a political form of secular messianism.” I think Hitler in pre-WWII Germany was certainly one of these. His philosophy replaced all of Catholic and Lutheran belief in Germany, with a worship of him and his ideas and his will.

I think Communism in Russia was the same, where God was totally kicked out, churches were turned into libraries, warehouses, or museums, and Lenin and “the state” were worshipped in the place of God.

Right now in North Korea, the same thing is going on with the virtual apotheosis (turning him into a god) of Kim Jong Il. ‘’

On the general question of interpretation of eschatological prophecy in the Bible, I don’t think the Catholic Church is slouching. The Biblical prophecies keep us attuned to the future, particularly to the afterlife of the Kingdom of God. Their ultimate fulfillment is there.

The specific question of an apostasy in the Church certainly would require a great deal of certainty to diagnose. We can look at past history and see such in the Great Schism (with the Orthodox Churches) and possibly the same to some extent with the Protestant Reformation. These involved apostasies to varying extent.

When the Holy Father goes to the United Nations, the representatives listen politely, then go on with business as usual, that is a form of turning away, of apostasy from the truth.

Perhaps we will simply know it, when we see it.

This is such a good answer… Thanks !

 

[Protestant101]

Are you ever going to answer my post on the other thread? You asked for evidence, I provided it, you disappeared.

Gary

You are off topic.

 

[beboldfor]

When the pope speaks at the UN it makes no difference if he is listened to or not, the nations have been preached to!

Considering what Mat 24:14 says about the consumation following on its heels,where do we stand?

If you state that the nations were preached to at the time of the Apostles, as some say, why did the pope bring it up?

Maybe the Ultimate Trial is near?

 

[Lapell]

When the pope speaks at the UN it makes no difference if he is listened to or not, the nations have been preached to!

Considering what Mat 24:14 says about the consumation following on its heels,where do we stand?

If you state that the nations were preached to at the time of the Apostles, as some say, why did the pope bring it up?

Maybe the Ultimate Trial is near?

It’s certainly “near”, since Jesus said in the Book of Revelation: “I will come soon”… It’s how near it is and how soon that we don’t know. But we have to get ourselves prepared, and to let the Lord work through us…

 

[beboldfor]

I can’t help but believe it will be within a few decades. I know Protestants are usually into this, not so much Catholics, but it really does seem that this period has all the pointers.

The pope gave that speech in 1965, control of Jerusalem was taken by the Israelis in1967. Completing another prophecy Lk 21:24 “…and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.” The gentiles no longer control Jerusalem.

Is it wrong for a Catholic to try to be more specific than just saying ‘always be prepared’? I don’t mean we should try to build a calendar of coming events as many Protestants do. But even Karol Wojtyla said in 1976 before becoming Pope John Paul II
“We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel versus the anti-Gospel.”

I do not mean to sound alarmist, I am just very curious. Does anyone else see this?

 

[LilyM]

I can’t help but believe it will be within a few decades. I know Protestants are usually into this, not so much Catholics, but it really does seem that this period has all the pointers.

The pope gave that speech in 1965, control of Jerusalem was taken by the Israelis in1967. Completing another prophecy Lk 21:24 “…and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.” The gentiles no longer control Jerusalem.

Is it wrong for a Catholic to try to be more specific than just saying ‘always be prepared’? I don’t mean we should try to build a calendar of coming events as many Protestants do. But even Karol Wojtyla said in 1976 before becoming Pope John Paul II
“We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel versus the anti-Gospel.”

I do not mean to sound alarmist, I am just very curious. Does anyone else see this?

Yes it is wrong. Jesus Himself said ‘no-one knows the day or hour, not even the Son’. If HE doesn’t know, what right or reason have you to dare to presume to greater knowledge than even He has?

 

[Protestant101]

Yes it is wrong. Jesus Himself said ‘no-one knows the day or hour, not even the Son’. If HE doesn’t know, what right or reason have you to dare to presume to greater knowledge than even He has?

That’s not what he is doing here; no presumptions have been made. Jesus said to not be involved in date-setting for His second coming; and yet He also gave us many signs to look for to look and see just how close things were really were. He wants us to read the signs which He gave us to look for; the disciples even asked Jesus:

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Now the answer that Jesus gave us is very interesting; one that I have not seen much from Catholics on; esp. Mat.24:15:

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

So it’s not wrong at all to try and find out how close we are; except for the fact we know that no exact date can be set.

 

[beboldfor]

I’m not trying to designate a day of Jesus return. But I do think maybe a sense of urgency should be communicated about things even recent popes have alluded to. Its an aspect of evangelizing if we inform those weak in faith that these are important times. You might be ready for Jesus to return but others might need prodding.
John Paul II also said in 1980 “We must be prepared to undergo great trials in the not-too-distant future; trials that will require us o be ready to give up even our lives, and a total gift of self to Christ and for Christ. Through your prayers and mine, it is possible to alleviate this tribulation, but it is no longer possible to avert it, because it is in this way that the Church can be effectively renewed. How many times, indeed, has the renewal of the Church been effected in blood?”
JP II is talking about a renewal, but is this in the larger context of the second coming?
Fr Regis Scanlon has an article called “Flood and Fire” on EWTN and he sees things as quite serious. Why aren’t more Catholics interested?

 

[po18guy]

One of the first problems with the Catholic views on prophecy; is the nebulous nature of Catholic “interpretation” for prophecy.

I find it really odd that the church who claims such authority, (the only “real” authority" ) to interpret the Bible, has such trouble coming up with definitive Bible prophecy.

The most common line I hear from Catholics is that prophecy is really “only” “private revelation;” and we cannot know for sure what it really means. Whenever it comes to the topics in Daniel and Revelation; all of a sudden the Catholics go running to the haven of “private interpretation” and how prophecy is not the same as “doctrine.”

You will never figure out Bible prophecy, from Catholic sources.

And yet, is is so very easy for thousands of “sola scripturists” to promulgate every possible false prophecy. The inherent wisdom of the church is revealed exactly by the lack of specificity. No one knows!

When you demand written proof of everything before you will believe, have you any faith? “When the Son of Man returns, will He find any faith on earth?” It is this human desire to know God’s will, His Divine plan, to access His knowledge that lead to the first sin.

It is this same desire that lead so many false prophets to effectively declare themselves superior to Christ - in that they “knew” the hour of His coming, whereas Christ does not know.

Where does it say that God’s revelation will ever be complete, especially prior to the tribulation and the second coming? He has graciously not only hidden the future from us, but also has shortened those days, or we would not survive. Since God will not reveal all before it is to happen, to whom are you actually listening?

Christ admonished us to be ready, not to endlessly prophesy like fools.

Christ’s peace.

 

[beboldfor]

Gods revelation is complete, it is our understanding that continues!!

As was stated, if recent popes have talked in terms of prophecy and end times, shouldn’t we be informed and active?

 

[LilyM]

That’s not what he is doing here; no presumptions have been made. Jesus said to not be involved in date-setting for His second coming; and yet He also gave us many signs to look for to look and see just how close things were really were. He wants us to read the signs which He gave us to look for; the disciples even asked Jesus:

Now the answer that Jesus gave us is very interesting; one that I have not seen much from Catholics on; esp. Mat.24:15:

So it’s not wrong at all to try and find out how close we are; except for the fact we know that no exact date can be set.

:yawn: And what ‘signs’ did he say to look for? We Catholics don’t comment, in general, because these ‘signs’ are all things have been constant throughout human history, not absent from it for a single day.

Besides which, we know that we have enough to do to prepare for our own death and judgement than to worry especially about the fate of the world, since there is little if anything that we can do to change that beyond what we do anyway - pray and try to live the Gospel.

We don’t comment because, as Jesus Himself said ‘there will always be wars and rumours of wars’, and ‘the day will come like a thief in the night’ (ie it will be unpredictable!), two passages you don’t seem to have registered, in your eagerness to predict the end. To what purpose, when even Christ Himself says in so many words that the end will NOT be predictable?

If you think there are more of these ‘signs’ now you’re deluding yourself. Certainly they’re more reported, but there is nothing now akin to the Black Death which killed off at least a quarter of the population of Europe.

No more persecution of the Church even (certainly nothing on the scale of Ancient Rome where Christianity was not just outlawed but Christians were executed, and throughout the known world, simply for professing their faith).

 

[garysibio]

You are off topic.

I guess thsaat means you won’t answer. Are you going to do the same thing here? I just don’t want to waste my time responding to your objections if you are just going to ignore anything that shows the error of your ways.

Gary

 

[beboldfor]

The Jewish Holocaust, the reconstitution of Israel and the retaking of Jerusalem are not typical events of history. They are not constants throughout time. Take a lead from Popes Paul VI and John Paul II, these are not typical times.

 

[garysibio]

That’s not what he is doing here; no presumptions have been made. Jesus said to not be involved in date-setting for His second coming; and yet He also gave us many signs to look for to look and see just how close things were really were. He wants us to read the signs which He gave us to look for; the disciples even asked Jesus:

Now the answer that Jesus gave us is very interesting; one that I have not seen much from Catholics on; esp. Mat.24:15:

So it’s not wrong at all to try and find out how close we are; except for the fact we know that no exact date can be set.

I’m not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with examining the signs of the times as long as you are careful to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. You do need to make sure that you don’t go astray and lose your faith.

My question is this: How would doing so affect your walk with Jesus? What would you do differently if you knew for certain that He was coming back sometime this month?

Gary

 

[LilyM]

The Jewish Holocaust, the reconstitution of Israel and the retaking of Jerusalem are not typical events of history. They are not constants throughout time. Take a lead from Popes Paul VI and John Paul II, these are not typical times.

Hitler killed a quarter of the population of Europe like the Black Death did? Heck, he didn’t even match Stalin or Mao in the killing stakes - Stalin liquidated upwards of 30 million people in the course of three years, five times the estimated figure for Hitler.

Then compare that to lesser-known historical figures like William I of England who depopulated most of the North of England so effectively that NO-ONE lived there for 20 years! Or the carnage of the Hundred Years War or the Thirty Years War.

In the end, no human life is more significant than another, and the fact that Hitler’s targets were primarily Jewish doesn’t make them more significant either.

As for holocausts - if I recall my ancient history rightly, the Romans made a pretty comprehensive holocaust of the Jews and their homeland in AD 73. Isn’t that how the Holy Land was able to come under the dominion of Arabs and later Muslims in the first place?

Retaking of Jerusalem? Want to tell the Palestinians that Jerusalem has been ‘retaken’? I think they’d disagree with you there, they’re still fighting very hard indeed for it. Then again, didn’t Richard Lionheart’s crusade come within a whisker of retaking the entire Holy Land as well?

Of course these aren’t typical times - but that’s because there is no such thing as a typical time.

 

[beboldfor]

My concern is that maybe Catholics are too laid back on this issue. I think part of the motivation for the current re-evangelization
effort is so that people will not be caught totally unaware if something really is happening.

 

[LilyM]

My concern is that maybe Catholics are too laid back on this issue. I think part of the motivation for the current re-evangelization
effort is so that people will not be caught totally unaware if something really is happening.

But we WILL be caught unaware - the day WILL come like a thief in the night! Our Lord said so, there’s no avoiding it.

The only thing we can do is prepare ourselves as best we can for our OWN death and judgement, which will almost certainly come before the Last Days, and help those around us as best we can in imitation of Him.