The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[cjforJesus]

Sorry I should have read more of your posts.

If contemplation is a gift why is it then necessary to renounce ALL worldly pleasure including friendships and family contact? Give up TV, the internet, and smart phone?

You make it sound as though it can and must be earned.

Michael.this is from “The Way of Perfection”. One must renounce ALL worldly pleasures to even enter the castle.

As I said before these mystical writings were from an era where almost no one could read and the monastics they were aimed at followed Jesus by giving up ALL worldly pleasures. To accurately incorporate these writings or “methods” one would have to realize what they entailed.

As I have researched more I believe the cloud of unknowing may be more about centering prayer than contemplative.Centering prayer I believe is a banned topic so I will not go into any more details.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Michael.this is from “The Way of Perfection”. One must renounce ALL worldly pleasures to even enter the castle.

As I said before these mystical writings were from an era where almost no one could read and the monastics they were aimed at followed Jesus by giving up ALL worldly pleasures. To accurately incorporate these writings or “methods” one would have to realize what they entailed.

As I have researched more I believe the cloud of unknowing may be more about centering prayer than contemplative.Centering prayer I believe is a banned topic so I will not go into any more details.

Why not go to the true authorities of Contemplative Prayer and ask them? Here’s one such link.

carmelitanacollection.com/larking.php

 

[cjforJesus]

Hello Robert -

There seems to be confusion on this thread as to what spiritual writers mean by the word “beginner.” The author of The Cloud clearly shows - as do the Carmelites - that individuals should practice meditation as long as it is profitable to do so. That, in a nutshell, is what they mean by beginner … someone who meditates.

At a certain point in time, God willing, meditation may no longer be fruitful. Again, the author of The Cloud and Carmelites like John and Teresa identify the signs by which to discern if this is actually the case. If so, one is counseled to place less reliance on meditation for more simplified ways of prayer … such as the method of The Cloud, the Practice of the Presence of God of Br. Lawrence, the recollection of Teresa or loving attentiveness of John to name a few.

As I know you know there is nothing more simple than these ways of prayer … for those called to do it.

But, generally speaking, souls are led to these simplified ways of prayer through discursive methods (meditation). That’s the teaching. But, of course, there are exceptions to every rule.

Hope this helps,
Dave

How in the world does one quantify if meditative prayer is no longer fruitful?
How can one say that another person is a "contemplative? You are labeling and grading a persons spirituality. God alone sees the heart and intentions of a person.

In regards to these 50 people you have so diligently schooled: What qualifies them as in your mind being “contemplative?” Is there a set of criteria you use ?

The fruits of the spirit are love peace and joy. How does one quantify that?

The person I knew who I believed to be a contemplative had no idea what that even was and never used any “method” but vocal prayer.

 

[DBT]

Michael.this is from “The Way of Perfection”. One must renounce ALL worldly pleasures to even enter the castle.

No. We renounce the attachment to pleasures. Big, big difference.

Further, the way a secular living in the world is to apply these teachings to their life is very different from those who are cloistered. One of the principal tasks of formation directors in the Order is to teach members the appropriate form of balance. I’d say one of the main reasons a community will discern an aspirant does not have a vocation is when such an individual persists in the belief they should live like little monks or nuns when they have a spouse and children at home. Such a belief is no sign of holiness … it’s actually contrary to God’s will. And an all to common misconception.

Dave

 

[cjforJesus]

No. We renounce the attachment to pleasures. Big, big difference.

Further, the way a secular living in the world is to apply these teachings to their life is very different from those who are cloistered. One of the principal tasks of formation directors in the Order is to teach members the appropriate form of balance. I’d say one of the main reasons a community will discern an aspirant does not have a vocation is when such an individual persists in the belief they should live like little monks or nuns when they have a spouse and children at home. Such a belief is no sign of holiness … it’s actually contrary to God’s will. And an all to common misconception.

Dave

Sorry Dave,the Way of Perfection says otherwise. First one must renounce all worldly pleasures which would include TV internet and advanced smart phones except perhaps if they were needed for business.

Like I said truly look at these writings and realize they were from an era where no one read.The average person was a peasant farmer.

The truest sign of holiness is humility. The only reason St Teresa even wrote her works was in obedience to her bishop.

 

[christofirst]

All I can say is the picture you paint of Carmelite spirituality would be unrecognizable to those who actually live it. It is not nearly as harsh, burdensome or esoteric as you make it out to be. I have a vocational obligation by way of my Promises, by the way, to point that out.

Blessings and peace to you,
Dave

Thank you very much for pointing this out, and for your other informative and encouraging posts here.

 

[Bookcat]

Dave,the author is unknown,and there are many who are rightly concerned that what he may be teaching is actually Buddhist meditation.

.

Some claim this “cloud of unknowing” is similar to the the Buddhist concept of nothingness and therefore makes the idea of god more of an underlying pantheistic force.
.

And they would be quite mistaken in such a claim…as we know.

But can be said that the Cloud gets used by various persons or groups - who say “this is what it is” or “this is what he teaches” but I would not agree. One has to approach the Cloud of Unknowing for the work that it is. In its actual context - and so yes I would “add” to the authors caution.

 

[DBT]

How in the world does one quantify if meditative prayer is no longer fruitful?

Maybe this will help, CJ … St. John of the Cross’ 3-signs:
Ascent of Mount Carmel:

1. The first sign is his realization that he can no longer meditate or reason with his imagination, neither can take pleasure therein as he was wont to do aforetime; he rather finds aridity in that which aforetime was wont to captivate his senses and to bring him sweetness. But, for as long as he finds sweetness in meditation, and is able to reason, he should not abandon this, save when his soul is led into the peace and quietness[298] which is described under the third head.
2. The second sign is a realization that he has no desire to fix his mediation or his sense upon other particular objects, exterior or interior. I do not mean that the imagination neither comes nor goes (for even at times of deep[299] recollection it is apt to move freely), but that the soul has no pleasure in fixing it of set purpose upon other objects.
3. The third and surest sign is that the soul takes pleasure in being alone, and waits with loving attentiveness upon God, without making any particular meditation, in inward peace and quietness and rest, and without acts and exercises of the faculties – memory, understanding and will – at least, without discursive acts, that is, without passing from one thing to another; the soul is alone, with an attentiveness and a knowledge, general and loving, as we said, but without any particular understanding, and adverting not to that which it is contemplating.
4. These three signs, at least, the spiritual person must observe in himself, all together, before he can venture safely to abandon the state of meditation and sense,[300] and to enter that of contemplation and spirit.

The rest can be found here: catholictreasury.info/books/ascent/asc29.php

The author of The Cloud, by the way, presents a similar point of view in his work Privy Counseling as was shown in a post earlier in this thread.

Lastly, please note St. John is not speaking of infused contemplation with these signs. He treats that in his presentation on the same subject in Dark Night.

Hope this helps,
Dave

 

[cjforJesus]

I have had conversations with many Carmelite friars at a monastery and Marian shrine not far from my home. These men are the kindest most peaceful people you could ever meet. Their life is not dull or unfruitful but exudes joy. I often see one of them circling the interior of the Basilica while praying the rosary. Vocal prayer is always fruitful because God sees the heart and intentions. If one is enrolled in the brown scapular of the Carmelites they should pray the rosary every day.

 

[cjforJesus]

And they would be quite mistaken in such a claim…as we know.

But there are scholars who claim that the cloud is actually teaching centering prayer which is not the same as contemplative.

 

[Bookcat]

But there are scholars who claim that the cloud is actually teaching centering prayer which is not the same as contemplative.

We are not permitted to discuss that topic.

(and also I added to my last post).

 

[Rosebud77]

I have deliberately never read any book on this yet or rather consequently find such prayer a constant in my solitary life up here on the mountain. It is not a technique to be learned but simply a habit and a way of life. I have always known this.

 

[cjforJesus]

I have deliberately never read any book on this yet or rather consequently find such prayer a constant in my solitary life up here on the mountain. It is not a technique to be learned but simply a habit and a way of life. I have always known this.

Thank you.I can understand your point very well.

 

[Bookcat]

B.

The *Cloud of Unknowing *is the Cloud of Unknowing…and is to be understood and approached as itself -in the correct context. One can put any other writings which do not approach it as such “under the cloud of forgetting” and approach this work on its own terms.

As to does the Cloud of Unknowing discuss contemplative prayer?-- again note that the terms “contemplation” “contemplative prayer” etc have varied uses within the history Spiritual Theology and among the various faithful writers. There is for example “acquired contemplation”…etc. If one tries to “match up” the many varied Spiritual works down through the centuries who use similar terms but mean differing things - one will encounter some confusion. Whole volumes of Spiritual Theology are needed to deal with all the various Schools and meanings of their terms.

 

[Bookcat]

It is not a technique

frjacquesphilippe.com/node/117

 

[DBT]

Thank you for the kind words, Christofirst

 

[DBT]

under the cloud of forgetting"

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Michael.this is from “The Way of Perfection”. One must renounce ALL worldly pleasures to even enter the castle.

.

No, we don’t have to renounce all worldly pleasures, but detach ourselves from the inordinate desires of appetites which are hindrances in growing toward union with Christ.

We don’t have to renounce the beauty of seeing a sunset, nor the cool refreshing taste of a glass of ice water on a hot day.

It’s the disordered attachment to such things where we place them at higher levels than God who created them for us to enjoy.

It would be akin to a child who receives a new bicycle for Christmas and places more value on the bicycle than the parents who gave the bike. This is disordered.

So it is with our attachments which place the material and even spiritual, over God.

Jim

 

[Robert_Sock]

No, we don’t have to renounce all worldly pleasures, but detach ourselves from the inordinate desires of appetites which are hindrances in growing toward union with Christ.

We don’t have to renounce the beauty of seeing a sunset, nor the cool refreshing taste of a glass of ice water on a hot day.

It’s the disordered attachment to such things where we place them at higher levels than God who created them for us to enjoy.

It would be akin to a child who receives a new bicycle for Christmas and places more value on the bicycle than the parents who gave the bike. This is disordered.

So it is with our attachments which place the material and even spiritual, over God.

Jim

Here’s a Jewish perspective, one that I try achieve.

For as explained in chapter 6, any permitted action done without the specific intention of leading one to the serving of G-d (as, for example, eating in order to obtain strength for Torah study or performing the mitzvot) derives its vitality from the sitra achra. (This term simply means “the other side,” i.e., the absence of holiness.)
-Tanya: Likutei Amarim - Chapter 27

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Michael.this is from “The Way of Perfection”. One must renounce ALL worldly pleasures to even enter the castle.

As I said before these mystical writings were from an era where almost no one could read and the monastics they were aimed at followed Jesus by giving up ALL worldly pleasures. To accurately incorporate these writings or “methods” one would have to realize what they entailed.

As I have researched more I believe the cloud of unknowing may be more about centering prayer than contemplative.Centering prayer I believe is a banned topic so I will not go into any more details.

The Way of Perfection is but one document. I think St Bonaventure, also a doctor of the Church, is not so world denying. Have you read his Itinerarium? He descibes contemplative prayer as something more accessable to all who pray for it with desire.