The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[JimR-OCDS]

Some one mentioned that the Cloud of Unknowing was written for monastics, so it’s not for us.

Well, St Teresa’s “Way of Perfection,” was written for nuns, so if we use the same logic, we shouldn’t read it.

Neither are the case, just as “The Imitation of Christ,” was written for monastics too, but who would advocate that it’s not for lay people to read ?

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

Some one mentioned that the Cloud of Unknowing was written for monastics, so it’s not for us.

Well, St Teresa’s “Way of Perfection,” was written for nuns, so if we use the same logic, we shouldn’t read it.

Neither are the case, just as “The Imitation of Christ,” was written for monastics too, but who would advocate that it’s not for lay people to read ?

Jim

I do not recall anyone saying that…but perhaps they did.

That though is not what I was noting.

But certainly one does need to understand the various works in their particular contexts.

 

[Bookcat]

Sorry Dave,the Way of Perfection says otherwise. First one must renounce all worldly pleasures which would include TV internet and advanced smart phones except perhaps if they were needed for business.

Like I said truly look at these writings and realize they were from an era where no one read.The average person was a peasant farmer.

The truest sign of holiness is humility. The only reason St Teresa even wrote her works was in obedience to her bishop.

Again depends on what is meant by the terms. The various spiritual writers use the terms rather differently than each other.

For example “worldly” can refer to “sinful” that of “the world” in the pejorative sense.

Not that one must renounce all secular matters…

(certainly not those of us “in the world”)

 

[cjforJesus]

Some one mentioned that the Cloud of Unknowing was written for monastics, so it’s not for us.

Well, St Teresa’s “Way of Perfection,” was written for nuns, so if we use the same logic, we shouldn’t read it.

Neither are the case, just as “The Imitation of Christ,” was written for monastics too, but who would advocate that it’s not for lay people to read ?

Jim

All these works were written in the middle ages when very few people could even read. They were written for monastics and ascetics.

The prayer of recollection involves the heart and not any specific technique or mantra. It is about love and silence and listening for Jesus,the Word of God.

 

[cjforJesus]

No, we don’t have to renounce all worldly pleasures, but detach ourselves from the inordinate desires of appetites which are hindrances in growing toward union with Christ.

We don’t have to renounce the beauty of seeing a sunset, nor the cool refreshing taste of a glass of ice water on a hot day.

It’s the disordered attachment to such things where we place them at higher levels than God who created them for us to enjoy.

It would be akin to a child who receives a new bicycle for Christmas and places more value on the bicycle than the parents who gave the bike. This is disordered.

So it is with our attachments which place the material and even spiritual, over God.

Jim

I was just echoing what I learned from reading that work.It probably worked well in that era not so much nowadays. Purgation, illumination, and union are said to be the three stages of the spiritual life with purgation at times lasting decades.It took 30 years for St Teresa to be graced with the gift of union.

 

[Bookcat]

All these works were written in the middle ages when very few people could even read. They were written for monastics and ascetics.

.

Yes many of such works from that period - sure. But that does not mean that other Christians may not read them. They though need to approach them in the right context and understand them correctly. And not all ought to just be “handed them”. Each case will differ.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I was just echoing what I learned from reading that work.It probably worked well in that era not so much nowadays. Purgation, illumination, and union are said to be the three stages of the spiritual life with purgation at times lasting decades.It took 30 years for St Teresa to be graced with the gift of union.

It’s why reading St Teresa and St John of the Cross without having help from qualified people can be problematic.

Myself and my wife, are Secular Order Discalced Carmelites. The Way of Perfection was the first book we had to read in formation, and it was under the guidance of the OCDS novice master and OCD Friars of the order.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

FYI, St Teresa and St John of the Cross works came after the Middle Ages.

The Middle Age ranged from the 5th to the 14th Century.

St Teresa and St John of the Cross lived in the 16th century.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Primarily, I need to express clearly who should try contemplative prayer. Some personalities will find contemplation more suitable than others. It is a personal choice. Appropriate candidates are individuals with a sincere desire to forsake the world. It does not matter that such a seeker may have been a habitual sinner earlier in life. Everyone who has the desire should devote attention to this exercise.
-Cloud of Unknowing, Chapter 27

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

CJ -
I feel our conversation is digressing from the theme of the thread so I will take my leave of it. You mention you’ve only met or known one true contemplative. Well I have the good fortune of intimately knowing and working with 50 delightful contemplative souls in my own community alone … and hundreds others throughout the broader order. Friars, nuns and seculars from all walks of life all at varying stages of the spiritual journey. It is not our job to “push” any particular way of prayer but simply to provide the information and spiritual framework necessary to members to best allow the Holy Spirit to do the work He wants to do.

All I can say is the picture you paint of Carmelite spirituality would be unrecognizable to those who actually live it. It is not nearly as harsh, burdensome or esoteric as you make it out to be. I have a vocational obligation by way of my Promises, by the way, to point that out.

Blessings and peace to you,
Dave

Thank you, Dave. You have a lot of knowledge and practical experience in this matter, and I appreciate your joining us to give us so much insight.

I still haven’t finished reading the thread yet, but I can see how amazingly impervious a boundary of fear can be, in preventing even what is completely simple and honest from being conveyed.

Actually this has encouraged me, and now that I’m listening to the audiobook again, it is renewing in me something that was very prominent a few years ago but I gave up because I thought it was just “spitting into the wind.” More and more I’m seeing through so many ways the difference between structure and procedure, and actual inner transformation, and all the little subtle “lies” that need to be accepted in our very language in talking about our Catholic faith, that turn around the most valuable items of treasure and paint them over with whitewash. In the end, we don’t know if they are tombs or jewel cases.

Ah well there I go getting verbose again. I’ll go back and reread the thread. But one thing I have decided, is that I am going to rejoin the Secular Franciscans. A new book I’m listening to “Eager to Love” has me interested and fired up again.

MS

 

[cjforJesus]

FYI, St Teresa and St John of the Cross works came after the Middle Ages.

The Middle Age ranged from the 5th to the 14th Century.

St Teresa and St John of the Cross lived in the 16th century.

Regardless they were written at a time when very few people were literate.

 

[cjforJesus]

It’s why reading St Teresa and St John of the Cross without having help from qualified people can be problematic.

Myself and my wife, are Secular Order Discalced Carmelites. The Way of Perfection was the first book we had to read in formation, and it was under the guidance of the OCDS novice master and OCD Friars of the order.

Jim

I know what you mean.I asked a discalced Carmelite friar who had been a priest for perhaps 50 years about some of St Teresa’s writings. He said they were written so long ago and gone through many translations that the saint herself probably would not recognize them. He advised me to stay in communion with the Church and avail myself of the rich sacramental life. One cannot go wrong following that advice.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

How in the world does one quantify if meditative prayer is no longer fruitful?
How can one say that another person is a "contemplative? You are labeling and grading a persons spirituality. God alone sees the heart and intentions of a person.

In regards to these 50 people you have so diligently schooled: What qualifies them as in your mind being “contemplative?” Is there a set of criteria you use ?

The fruits of the spirit are love peace and joy. How does one quantify that?

The person I knew who I believed to be a contemplative had no idea what that even was and never used any “method” but vocal prayer.

Well then that person must not have been acquainted, as I believe most Catholics are not (one of the reasons I keep bringing up contemplative prayer) with the teachings the Church has on it. The CCC actually says that prayer forms “should” progress beyond vocal and meditative, and include contemplative.

So whatever you call “contemplative” apparently has nothing to do with “contemplative prayer” as described by the Church. So I don’t see that you are making any point here.

There are a lot of “nice people” I’m sure, who have not heard of any number of prayer forms and traditions in the Church. You seem to be using your personal experience and opinions as given, and struggling to oppose any “spreading” of the practice of contemplative prayer. Why? It seems to be fear-based because of its tenacity and resistance to questioning.

Sorry Dave,the Way of Perfection says otherwise. First one must renounce all worldly pleasures which would include TV internet and advanced smart phones except perhaps if they were needed for business.

Like I said truly look at these writings and realize they were from an era where no one read.The average person was a peasant farmer.

The truest sign of holiness is humility. The only reason St Teresa even wrote her works was in obedience to her bishop.

Except perhaps as they are needed by business? That’s a big loophole.

I have had conversations with many Carmelite friars at a monastery and Marian shrine not far from my home. These men are the kindest most peaceful people you could ever meet. Their life is not dull or unfruitful but exudes joy. I often see one of them circling the interior of the Basilica while praying the rosary. Vocal prayer is always fruitful because God sees the heart and intentions. If one is enrolled in the brown scapular of the Carmelites they should pray the rosary every day.

Have you ever asked them about contemplative prayer or the Cloud? The real test of contemplative prayer is how joyful and loving they are outside the prayer, and the increase in quality of relationships with other people – not the experience they have while within it. They may be too humble to admit to you what all they actually do, unless you ask.

Some one mentioned that the Cloud of Unknowing was written for monastics, so it’s not for us.

Well, St Teresa’s “Way of Perfection,” was written for nuns, so if we use the same logic, we shouldn’t read it.

Neither are the case, just as “The Imitation of Christ,” was written for monastics too, but who would advocate that it’s not for lay people to read ?

Jim

Good points. The code of Canon law wasn’t written for lay people, either.

Regardless they were written at a time when very few people were literate.

Agreed.

 

[cjforJesus]

Well then that person must not have been acquainted, as I believe most Catholics are not (one of the reasons I keep bringing up contemplative prayer) with the teachings the Church has on it. The CCC actually says that prayer forms “should” progress beyond vocal and meditative, and include contemplative.

So whatever you call “contemplative” apparently has nothing to do with “contemplative prayer” as described by the Church. So I don’t see that you are making any point here.

There are a lot of “nice people” I’m sure, who have not heard of any number of prayer forms and traditions in the Church. You seem to be using your personal experience and opinions as given, and struggling to oppose any “spreading” of the practice of contemplative prayer. Why? It seems to be fear-based because of its tenacity and resistance to questioning.

Except perhaps as they are needed by business? That’s a big loophole.

Have you ever asked them about contemplative prayer or the Cloud? The real test of contemplative prayer is how joyful and loving they are outside the prayer, and the increase in quality of relationships with other people – not the experience they have while within it. They may be too humble to admit to you what all they actually do, unless you ask.

Good points. The code of Canon law wasn’t written for lay people, either.

Agreed.

contemplative prayer as defined by the Catechism is a fixed gaze at Jesus. It does not require any specific technique and it is not a secret. Centering prayer on the other hand does and it is possibly what the cloud of knowing is referring to.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I do not want you to have misconceptions regarding the contemplative work of the soul. Therefore, let me describe in detail what I have learned about this plain and simple practice. Many think contemplative prayer takes a long time to achieve. On the contrary, results may be instantaneous.
-The Cloud of Unknowing, Chapter 4.

This does not mean that the contemplative does not need a solid foundation, which I put into practice by studying and following The Imitation of Christ.

 

[cjforJesus]

I do not want you to have misconceptions regarding the contemplative work of the soul. Therefore, let me describe in detail what I have learned about this plain and simple practice. Many think contemplative prayer takes a long time to achieve. On the contrary, results may be instantaneous.
-The Cloud of Unknowing, Chapter 4.

This does not mean that the contemplative does not need a solid foundation, which I put into practice by studying and following The Imitation of Christ.

From my research it does appear that the book is a treatise on centering prayer and not true contemplation. Centering prayer is pretty much Buddhist meditation with Christian words used to try to unite one with the nothingness.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I do not want you to have misconceptions regarding the contemplative work of the soul. Therefore, let me describe in detail what I have learned about this plain and simple practice. Many think contemplative prayer takes a long time to achieve. On the contrary, results may be instantaneous.
-The Cloud of Unknowing, Chapter 4.

This does not mean that the contemplative does not need a solid foundation, which I put into practice by studying and following The Imitation of Christ.

It seems there can be many forms of a contemplative life and diffferent “stages” of contemplative prayer. I love the simplicity of the method descibed in The Cloud, a method anyone can employ at any time. The results will, no doubt, differ with each individual according to many factors including grace and stage inspiritual life.

The main thing, at least imo, is that many people shy away from the whole contemplative side of life and prayer. Even some people who consider themselves devout seem content with verbal and mental prayer alone.

 

[cjforJesus]

It seems there can be many forms of a contemplative life and diffferent “stages” of contemplative prayer. I love the simplicity of the method descibed in The Cloud, a method anyone can employ at any time. The results will, no doubt, differ with each individual according to many factors including grace and stage inspiritual life.

The main thing, at least imo, is that many people shy away from the whole contemplative side of life and prayer. Even some people who consider themselves devout seem content with verbal and mental prayer alone.

What we find in Ss. Teresa and John and in Scripture is a very different message… as far as I can find, not a single sentence … speaks of methodology as a means to deep communion with the God of revelation.” (Fr. Thomas Dubay, Fire Within, 111)

 

[Michael_Mayo]

What we find in Ss. Teresa and John and in Scripture is a very different message… as far as I can find, not a single sentence … speaks of methodology as a means to deep communion with the God of revelation.” (Fr. Thomas Dubay, Fire Within, 111)

Isn’t “methodology” just another way of saying “form” of prayer?

Lecto Divina for example.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

From my research it does appear that the book is a treatise on centering prayer and not true contemplation. Centering prayer is pretty much Buddhist meditation with Christian words used to try to unite one with the nothingness.

From all you’re written in this thread, I now recognize that the author’s words are speaking to me, and I feel obligated to recommend you stay far away from this book. Not others necessarily, just you personally. This book seems to bring you great fear, in part maybe because of fears you have adopted from others who have written from positions of academic authority on topics they know nothing about. You and the book are toxic to each other, so I’d say please just step away and you will probably be best off.

This is the first time I’ve ever sincerely believed someone should “not” read something that I think is life-giving. I’ve thought, “gee maybe it doesn’t speak to them” but in this instance it is as strong as any compulsion I’ve ever felt. So cjforjesus, I honestly think you should listen to the thoughts in your mind that tell you to stay away from it. I’d prefer that you don’t “scare away” others by spreading fear about it, but if you do that’s ok because the Holy Spirit really does have things under control.

On earth as it is in heaven. :heaven: