The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[cjforJesus]

The Way of Perfection is not a book so much “about” contemplation as it is a “preparation” for it. Think of it as a prequel to Interior Castle where she treats the contemplative experience much more fully.

That having been said, some of my favorite descriptions of contemplation can be found in The Way of Perfection. Since you seem to be drawn to this work may I suggest you spend some time with Chapters 28-30 where she introduces a specific “method” for turning inward in order to more fully find our Lord who truly lives within? What she describes in these chapters is one example of what posters have described as acquired contemplation.

Then, in Chapter 31 she touches upon the beginnings of infused prayer (prayer of quiet) … where our effort is simplified to the point that “a gentle word from time to time” is all we need. Here, her teaching is not so different than the author of The Cloud … although the timing on when to do it is.

Lastly, neither contemplation in general - nor The Cloud’s treatment of it - is about “forgetting God.” Using the authors language, we place our reflections of God and His attributes in a cloud of unknowing above us and our reflections of our sins and fallen nature in a cloud of forgetting below us.

What does this actually mean, practically speaking? Simple: “I look at Him and He looks at me.” God and soul simply look at each other. That’s it. No attempt to analyze, define, figure out or categorize. That’s the purpose of meditation. And contemplation is all about setting aside our meditation (at least for that time of prayer) in order to simply “be” and rest in His very presence.

Nothing is easier or more simple to do.

Please don’t get me wrong, though. Meditation is an essential part of our spiritual development. It is sometimes said we must “know” before we can “love.” Well, in this context meditation teaches us to know … so that we taste love experientially in contemplation. The former feeds the latter.

But learning when to let go our meditations is an essential part of our spiritual growth too. And a very big part of what St. Teresa, St. John and the author of The Cloud teach is precisely related to discerning when and how to do this letting go.

There’s a time and place for everything. And all of us should be satisfied with where God has placed us in the here and now and not push it. Nor should we discourage others from the path they’ve been given. Our best approach is to simply remain open and receptive at our time of prayer … and the Holy Spirit will lead us where He chooses.

I hope this helps,
Dave

Thanks Dave,but I still think God is the one who raises a soul to contemplative union. When it happened to my friend she was just kneeling by her bed ready to say her nightly prayers.

 

[cjforJesus]

Oops I edited the last post and it crossed with this post, so you are replying to an earlier draft.

Personally I have no use for St. Faustina’s “three days of darkness” and frankly I don’t think it was supposed to be anything but a private vision. Catholics are not required to place any stock in the details of these visions. I had forgotten about that. In the last post, my “left in the cold” comments applied to excerpts from her writings about Purgatory. The Three Days thing gripped my wife with fear during a bad time in our lives about 15 years ago. She read that, and our entire house was paranoid-city for months until her psychiatrist gave her a book called “Toxic Faith” and that helped. No, thanks on the Faustina stuff – you can keep that.

It seems to me we have very little in common other than we are both Catholics. I’ll tell you what; you keep on being suspicious of contemplative prayer, and I’ll continue to put no personal stock in anything I’ve yet seen from Faustina.

I am not suspicious of true contemplative prayer.I just am leery of specific prayer techniques that seem to guarantee a spiritual union with God.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Thanks Dave,but I still think God is the one who raises a soul to contemplative union. When it happened to my friend she was just kneeling by her bed ready to say her nightly prayers.

So it wasn’t while she was actually “saying” her prayers? In a time perhaps when she was just kneeling in silent simplicity beforehand? That could be a contemplative prayer. Unless she was kneeling in some Buddhist fashion I guess.

I’m really curious to know why you are so afraid that a prayer that is not only allowed but encouraged by the CCC for all Catholics – regardless of state of mind or emotion – and which has been practiced by by the Catholic Church for centuries, is going to lead you astray?

 

[christofirst]

Merely repeating the name of Jesus while focusing on being in his presence, is mental prayer.

Some here think it’s Buddhist meditation.

Jim

The Prayer Police.

 

[cjforJesus]

So it wasn’t while she was actually “saying” her prayers? In a time perhaps when she was just kneeling in silent simplicity beforehand? That could be a contemplative prayer. Unless she was kneeling in some Buddhist fashion I guess.

I’m really curious to know why you are so afraid that a prayer that is not only allowed but encouraged by the CCC for all Catholics – regardless of state of mind or emotion – and which has been practiced by by the Catholic Church for centuries, is going to lead you astray?

I am not suspicious of contemplative prayer or silence just that we know the antichrist is going to arrive with all signs and wonders and will unite the world under one religion.It seems that one religion is mysticism or gnosticism.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I am not suspicious of contemplative prayer or silence just that we know the antichrist is going to arrive with all signs and wonders and will unite the world under one religion.It seems that one religion is mysticism or gnosticism.

So you believe that when we pray to Jesus, he allows Satan to intervene and lure us astray ?

Jim

 

[cjforJesus]

So you believe that when we pray to Jesus, he allows Satan to intervene and lure us astray ?

Jim

That is not what I mean.Everything we need to know for salvation has already been revealed. If one empties the mind and just dwells on a void then you have no idea what spirits could fill that void and pretend to be holy. Contemplative prayer as far as I know is not about a void but actively listening to what God has to say.

Remember that the Cloud of unknowing author says it is for everyone and sometimes the results instantaneous. This sort of contradicts St Teresa,a doctor of the Church,who spent 30 years in spiritual growth.

 

[Robert_Sock]

That is not what I mean.Everything we need to know for salvation has already been revealed. If one empties the mind and just dwells on a void then you have no idea what spirits could fill that void and pretend to be holy. Contemplative prayer as far as I know is not about a void but actively listening to what God has to say.

It has been said by I believe St John of the Cross that we should create a void and let God fill it. Too many of us carry unnecessary baggage that greatly hinders our spirituality.

 

[cjforJesus]

It has been said by I believe St John of the Cross that we should create a void and let God fill it. Too many of us carry unnecessary baggage that greatly hinders our spirituality.

That is probably a misquote or someone else interpretation of St John. The Church says once you are no longer focused on Jesus it is not prayer.

Perhaps the void or nothingness the translator meant was the same one mentioned by St Faustina. It is not really a void but realizing how much we are fallen sinners and need God.He must increase and I must decrease.That is not nothingness. That is taking up your cross and following Him.

 

[DBT]

If one empties the mind and just dwells on a void then you have no idea what spirits could fill that void and pretend to be holy. Contemplative prayer as far as I know is not about a void but actively listening to what God has to say.

This is a misunderstanding of contemplation in general and scholastic terms in particular.

Hard to believe, but yes we are to create a “void” in our prayer development. St. John of the Cross explicitly uses the terms “void” and “oblivion” to describe the spiritual state we are to seek.

But here’s the key thing … what do those words actually mean? Unfortunately, much of the misunderstanding has to do with language translation. “Void” and “oblivion” in the Spanish of St. John’s day simply means to “forget” in our modern understanding. Not a state of blank nothingness people so often wrongly assume.

Have you ever prayed the rosary and noticed your mind started to wander to work or family issues or any other kind of distraction? Well, the simple act of turning away from those thoughts in order to more fully concentrate on the words of the rosary is to void your memory.

Yes, CJ, any good and faithful pray-er voids all the time

Dave

 

[Bookcat]

*The Cloud of Unknowing *is the Cloud of Unknowing…and is to be understood and approached as itself -in the correct context. One can put any other writings which do not approach it as such “under the cloud of forgetting” and approach this work on its own terms. The Cloud can get used by various persons or groups - who say “this is what it is” or “this is what he teaches” but I would not agree. One has to approach the Cloud of Unknowing for the work that it is. In its actual context - and so yes I would “add” to the authors caution.

As to does the Cloud of Unknowing discuss contemplative prayer?-- again note that the terms “contemplation” “contemplative prayer” etc have varied uses within the history Spiritual Theology and among the various faithful writers.

There is for example “acquired contemplation”…etc. If one tries to “match up” the many varied Spiritual works down through the centuries who use similar terms but mean differing things - one will encounter some confusion. Whole volumes of Spiritual Theology are needed to deal with all the various Schools and meanings of their terms.

So that must be born in mind.

Otherwise one finds that they read one author - say on infused contemplation and then they read a much earlier author who talks about “contemplation” or “contemplative prayer” - and what one read in the first will not jive with what one read in the other author -for they are writing about different senses of the word or different ways of contemplation…or contemplative prayer.

So one might read something say in the Cloud of Unknowing and then -having only experience with say St. Theresa of Jesus and later Schools think - hey that is not describing “contemplative prayer”…

But if one understands what I noted in the first part - then one will come to see that the Author of the Cloud in this section or that - is not seeking to discuss what a later writer is discussing…but is using the term in a different manner …but still an authentic one…

 

[cjforJesus]

This is a misunderstanding of contemplation in general and scholastic terms in particular.

Hard to believe, but yes we are to create a “void” in our prayer development. St. John of the Cross explicitly uses the terms “void” and “oblivion” to describe the spiritual state we are to seek.

But here’s the key thing … what do those words actually mean? Unfortunately, much of the misunderstanding has to do with language translation. “Void” and “oblivion” in the Spanish of St. John’s day simply means to “forget” in our modern understanding.

Have you ever prayed the rosary and noticed your mind started to wander to work or family issues or any other kind of distraction? Well, the simple act of turning away from those thoughts in order to more fully concentrate on the words of the rosary is to void your memory.

Yes, CJ, any good and faithful pray-er voids all the time

Dave

I think that is probably a mistranslation of St John because the Church says that once we are no longer focused on Jesus it is not prayer. Yes peoples minds wander that happens but we have free will to bring them back into focus. Prayer is always supplication and listening to what God has to say in our hearts.

 

[Bookcat]

*The Cloud of Unknowing *is the Cloud of Unknowing…and is to be understood and approached as itself -in the correct context. One can put any other writings which do not approach it as such “under the cloud of forgetting” and approach this work on its own terms. The Cloud can get used by various persons or groups - who say “this is what it is” or “this is what he teaches” but I would not agree. One has to approach the Cloud of Unknowing for the work that it is. In its actual context - and so yes I would “add” to the authors cautions about it not being for beginners or for all …and to read the whole etc etc.

As to does the Cloud of Unknowing discuss contemplative prayer?-- again note that the terms “contemplation” “contemplative prayer” etc have varied uses within the history Spiritual Theology and among the various faithful writers.

There is for example “acquired contemplation”…etc. If one tries to “match up” the many varied Spiritual works down through the centuries who use similar terms but mean differing things - one will encounter some confusion. Whole volumes of Spiritual Theology are needed to deal with all the various Schools and meanings of their terms.

So that must be born in mind.

Otherwise one finds that they read one author - say on infused contemplation and then they read a much earlier author who talks about “contemplation” or “contemplative prayer” - and what one read in the first will not jive with what one read in the other author -for they are writing about different senses of the word or different ways of contemplation…or contemplative prayer.

So one might read something say in the Cloud of Unknowing and then -having only experience with say St. Theresa of Jesus and later Schools think - hey that is not describing “contemplative prayer”…

But if one understands what I noted in the first part - then one will come to see that the Author of the Cloud in this section or that - is not seeking to discuss what a later writer is discussing…but is using the term in a different manner …but still an authentic one…

 

[Robert_Sock]

That is probably a misquote or someone else interpretation of St John. The Church says once you are no longer focused on Jesus it is not prayer.

Perhaps the void or nothingness the translator meant was the same one mentioned by St Faustina. It is not really a void but realizing how much we are fallen sinners and need God.He must increase and I must decrease.That is not nothingness. That is taking up your cross and following Him.

OK, I can see where this may contain truth, but I personally focus on the Trinity, which I believe is good. The question then becomes: “How much am I willing to forgo worldly pleasures to better focus on God?”** We must love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.** This state, when we are in it, is what Contemplative Prayer is all about.

 

[cjforJesus]

OK, I can see where this may contain truth, but I personally focus on the Trinity, which I believe is good. The question then becomes: “How much am I willing to forgo worldly pleasures to better focus on God?”** We must love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.** This state, when we are in it, is what Contemplative Prayer is all about.

It is what ALL prayer is about.

 

[DBT]

I think that is probably a mistranslation of St John because the Church says that once we are no longer focused on Jesus it is not prayer. Yes peoples minds wander that happens but we have free will to bring them back into focus. Prayer is always supplication and listening to what God has to say in our hearts.

Are you hearing what I’m saying? To void or empty (another key St. John of the Cross term) simply means to forget.

The mistake is on the part of those who (wrongly) read into words like oblivion, void and empty to be the characteristics of some sort of trance-like, zombie state. It is a complete and total misunderstanding on their part of everything!

Again, anyone who prays voids.

Dave

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

That is not what I mean.Everything we need to know for salvation has already been revealed. If one empties the mind and just dwells on a void then you have no idea what spirits could fill that void and pretend to be holy. Contemplative prayer as far as I know is not about a void but actively listening to what God has to say.
/
Remember that the Cloud of unknowing author says it is for everyone and sometimes the results instantaneous. This sort of contradicts St Teresa,a doctor of the Church,who spent 30 years in spiritual growth.

 

[Robert_Sock]

It is what ALL prayer is about.

With Contemplative Prayer though, you loose all the mental baggage of thoughts and images, and allow the resulting void to be filled with LOVE.

 

[cjforJesus]

Are you hearing what I’m saying? To void or empty (another key St. John of the Cross term) simply means to forget.

The mistake is on the part of those who (wrongly) read into words like oblivion, void and empty to be the characteristics of some sort of trance-like, zombie state. It is a complete and total misunderstanding on their part of everything!

Again, anyone who prays voids.

Dave

I think what is meant by void or forgetting is forgetting oneself and knowing you are a sinner.He must increase and I must decrease. It is not an altered state of consciousness but the realization that you are nothing without God.

 

[cjforJesus]

With Contemplative Prayer though, you loose all the mental baggage of thoughts and images, and allow the resulting void to be filled with LOVE.

All prayer is an act of love.