The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[moondweller]

Sorry, but you are manufacturing a meaning that is not in scripture. When Jesus “chose” the twelve the Greek uses the word for “elect.” Judas is never referred to as a devil or the son of perdition until shortly before he betrays Jesus. The reference in John chapter six occurs shortly before Jesus goes to Jerusalem to be crucified.

If anyone is “manufacturing,” it’s you. It matters not WHEN Jesus calls Judas “a devil” or “the son of perdition.” What matters is that He did.

These references to Judas come at this point in the gospel narratives because of his choice to associate himself with the evil one. Before this he worshiped Jesus as the son of God[Matt 14:33]. There is nothing in scripture to indicate that Judas did not believe, but there is plenty showing that he did.

Matt. 14:33 does not at all prove Judas to be a believer. You’re reading that thought into the Scripture. OTOH, that verse does prove what happens in churches every Sunday. People “worship” Jesus as “God’s Son,” and yet never believe in their heart unto salvation.

Based on your interpretation and shallow definition of “belief,” Pax, then, for you to be consistent, the following verses prove all creatures, men and angels, are believershil 2:9-11 “For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Rom 14:11 For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.”

Your doctrine says that salvation is by faith alone. Judas had faith.

It’s amazing to what extraordinary measures you’ll go to in order to try to prove that salvation can be lost. You’ll even brand one called “a devil” and “the son of perdition” by the Lord Himself a “believer.”

You do not suffer loss if you have done good work, and then gain rewards only for the works that are of higher quality. You suffer loss for those things that fall short and have no value. Sin is falling short.

Literally in the Greek it says, “…of what sort each man’s WORK is” (gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw"). This amounts to “quality.” The latter three cannot survive the scrutiny of divine judgment when even the motives of a man’s heart will be brought to light (1 Cor. 4:5). The NASB interprets it:1 Cor 3:13 "each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is {to be} revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work."All of this has to do with judging the believer’s WORKS, sins are not at all the issue. The believer’s sins were dealt with judicially, once for all, by God’s Substitute on the cross. Much of Catholic soteriology circumvents the cross.

BRB,

This is not an OSAS thread, or at least I didn’t think it was. If you would like to start an OSAS thread I will happily join in and lay a mountain of scripture against the teaching.

Don’t be hypocritical, you’ve contributed to the OSAS discussion here.

There are no quotas.

Then how will you know if you’ve burdened yourself enough to gain God’s approval for your future salvation? At least the Law of Moses was specific.

Your efforts to define the law of Christ as a system of wage is simply erroneous.

I’m attempting no such effort. My effort is to show the fallacy of trying to turn the GRACE in which all true believers now stand into just another system of law:“For you are not under law but under grace”…says Paul.

If the law of Christ and the system of grace, and the good works that the Father prepared in advance of your justification were a system of earning your salvation then Paul would be uttering self contradictory statements in his letters.

I completely agree. But what continually flies over your head is that those good works that “should” be walked in are reserved for those who "have been saved by grace, through faith, as a gift of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9), and are now “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10).

To lose such a gifted salvation based on grace through faith God would have to un-create that one whom He “created in Christ Jesus” upon belief in Him. God never “un-creates” anything. Unless you can give me an example of He doing so in Scripture.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Christian apologetics isn’t for show — its our Olympic event, our race towards our high calling in C.J.

We must focus on the ball, swing the bat, connect with target, and run the bases in life.

It’s oftentimes the result of good preparation & teamplay …

But its time to step up out of the farm league into the minor league and then get to the real ball game with the veterans. Anyone can steal bases in a game with no empires.

Grace is the mechanism that brings growth and gets the home runs. Start cooperating with it and getting on base with the truth.

James

 

[BRB]

its time to step up out of the farm league into the minor league and then get to the real ball game with the veterans.

HA, HA !

Now that Pitcher Pax has let a few go over the fence … you’re now ready to come in for some relief pitching ?

MD will knock them over the wall all day on you …

 

[CentralFLJames]

Did you ask me that before? I do not believe in “a sin to death” (1 Jn. 5:16-17) as defined by Catholicism. Not even John defines it. How is it, then, that men have built a full blown doctrine on damnation based on that most obscure passage in Scripture?

No Apostle ever defined what Catholicism calls a “mortal sin.” But instead, the Apostolic message was/is:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Col 1:14 "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."And what prevents anyone from receiving forgiveness of ALL his sins and the inheritance of eternal life is unbelief. The scriptures are very clear on this. But men always stumble over the simplicity of this Apostolic message. Even theologians.Mark 3:28-29 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”…says Jesus.

John records the context of "blasphemes against the Holy Spirit:"Mark 3:30 "because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."Which amounts to unbelief.

*No Apostle ever defined what Catholicism calls a “mortal sin.”?

How is it, then, that men have built a full blown doctrine on damnation based on that most obscure passage in Scripture?*

How do you know unless you actually personally knew the Apostles and had their oral traditions? And do you forget the passage that Jesus tells Peter ‘those sins YOU hold bound are held bound and those sins YOU forgive are forgiven’? Who do you think YOU is? It is THE CHURCH leadership! The church has the God given right to set its doctrines and criteria for sin’s that require sacramental confession for forgivness. There is a purpose for this - to help the person recognize the gravity of a sin and to make it possible to genuinely repentant and so they can break the pattern of grave sin. ALSO its to prevent a person who commits small infractions to be running around in sack cloth crying “woe is me” for every small thing they do by accident without deliberate desire to sin.

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they **may receive forgiveness of sins **and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

And just how MAY a person be forgiven? It is through confession (originally done publicly to an elder/priest of the Church). There is NO automatic forgivness. If that were the case there would be no way to sin and evil deeds would become transiently neutral and eventually some non-Catholics would make the occasion of sin into a manifestation of God’s goodness and start promoting sin as examples of God’s goodness!! Use some common sense and get a real perspective please.

Unbelief is not just unbelief in Christ’s authority to forgive sins it is also unbelief is those Christ gave authority to forgive sins. ‘Those that reject you (i.e. do not believe) reject Me’. Your problem is you only believe in yourself and your own interpretation. You do not believe in Christ’s full teaching nor in His Church. Guess what, that makes you a non-believer.

James

 

[banjo]

…says Paul.I completely agree. But what continually flies over your head is that those good works that “should” be walked in are reserved for those who "have been saved by grace, through faith, as a gift of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9), and are now “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10).

To lose such a gifted salvation based on grace through faith God would have to un-create that one whom He “created in Christ Jesus” upon belief in Him. God never “un-creates” anything. Unless you can give me an example of He doing so in Scripture.

I have not followed this thread as closely as its antecedents which stretch back to mid-April. However, I don’t think anyone here is saying that we can earn our salvation by working for it; that it is not a gift from God. I disagree with your assessment that we must “un-create” Jesus in order to lose our salvation. I think that is possible by breaking faith with Him, cf. Ez 18:24
“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.”

 

[moondweller]

Salvation is to be understood in terms of the NT family of God. Our salvation is based on being made adopted sons and daughters of God in Christ Jesus our brother.

Our salvation is based on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and those who believe this Apostolic message, God Himself saves, and graciously adopts into His houselhold.

As members of the household we are finished with sin and we can no longer live in the flesh. We live in the Spirit and are lead by the Spirit.

We are finished with sin because, as Paul states, all true believers (1) have been crucified with Christ, (2) died TO SIN with Him, (3) and have been raised to new life in Him, and (4) (positionally) seated with Him in the heavenly (Rom. 6: cf. Gal. 2:20; 5:24; Eph. 2:5-7; Col. 3:1-4).

As to the believer and the “flesh”:Rom 8:5 “For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.”

Rom 8:9-10 “However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you (He does in every true believer). But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness” (i.e., the imputed righteousness of God being now “in Christ”)

If we decide to live in the flesh then we are like the Prodigal Son and we will be leaving the household to live a life of dissipation in the flesh. Living in the flesh and living in the Spirit are totally incompatible with one another.

The believer is not “in the flesh” but in the Spirit. The instruction for the believer now “in the Spirit” is:Gal 5:16 “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”…says Paul.

It is divinely revealed that the true believer is “in the Spirit,” not in/of the flesh. He is no longer in Adam, but now a new creation “in Christ” (2 Cor. 5:17) the “second Man,” the “Last Adam,” in Him “made righteous” (1Cor. 15:45-47; Rom . 5:19).

Understanding who the believe now is, is a matter of divine revelation. This is what must first be understood before one can comprehend Biblical salvation. When one does, the idea of losing it quickly dissipates.

 

[BRB]

• Your problem is you only believe in yourself and your own interpretation. You do not believe in Christ’s full teaching nor in His Church. Guess what, that makes you a non-believer.

James*

James …

This part was a ‘knock down’ pitch !!! Calling MD a non-believer is beyond the pale.

Just because he doesn’t belong to your Catholic Church [at the moment I might add] … doesn’t allow you to judge his salvation status.

If you toss out another ‘bad pitch’ … the ‘umpire upstairs’ will send you to dugout for some emergency penance.

 

[CentralFLJames]

James …

This part was a ‘knock down’ pitch !!! Calling MD a non-believer is beyond the pale.

Just because he doesn’t belong to your Catholic Church [at the moment I might add] … doesn’t allow you to judge his salvation status.

If you toss out another ‘bad pitch’ … the ‘umpire upstairs’ will send you to dugout for some emergency penance.

Au contraire , it was a fast ball and you were at bat. So now with 2 strikes you can’t call in a designated hitter in this game and we make you run your own bases as well.

And besides that, what I said was accurate. Catholics believe in the full and entire scripture with 73 books of the bible as well as the full Catechism of the Catholic Church. Protestants have a rule book that is a tithe lite at 66 books and you all can’t even get the teams in your own league to consistently agree among all your competing beliefs. So, its fair to say that to us Catholics its clear you are not believers since you all don’t even agree among yourselves what it is you believe in, nor do you agree with the same thing we do (different bible), nor do you believe in the profession of faith that the Apostolic teaching brings to Catholics. Belief in a different and competing standards renders the word “belief” ambiguous and impossible for those outside the universal understanding to have confidence that what they belive will merit them anything promised in the bible.

So, what you believe in differs substantially from what Catholics belive in and is not even the same game. There are recognized similarities but its certainly not baseball. Perhaps you are playing Cricket with English spin?

James

 

[Philthy]

The true believer is not under law, hence, “no violation” (transgression of law). Through faith in Christ he is brought into a grace relationship with God, apart from the principle of law.

You avoided answering, “How is grace still grace if it requires faith?”

Grace doesn’t “require” faith. God Himself saves the sinner according to His sovereign grace (unmerited, undeserved favor) upon the sinner’s faith in Christ alone.

You are the master, MD. How is it that faith is not required, exactly? If Im not mistaken - and Im not - faith IS required and God saves the sinner upon the REQUIRED faith in Christ. IF you thought that you had somehow actually addressed my question then you are mistaken…again. Care to try again?
I’ll make it easier for you: Is faith grace? Y or N If faith is not grace( and it is a necessary component of salvation) then how is grace still grace if it requires faith to be effective?

In addition, I never used the term law, I simply said that “Such a life will not violate the 10 commandments without eternal consequence”. You avoided a direct response to that as well.
Like I said, impractical blubbering.

 

[Pax]

Nope, not factual.

Christ tells us more on the subject … which you have not yet taken to heart.

Jn 6:64-65 “But, there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew FROM THE FIRST who those were that DID NOT BELIEVE, and who it was that should betray him. And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Jn 6:70 "Jesus answered them, “Did I not chose you, the 12, and one of you is a devil?”

Jn13:18 " I am NOT SPEAKING OF YOU ALL; I know WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me’.

Excuse me, but I addressed this very issue in a previous post. The only time scripture indicates that Judas did not believe Jesus is in respect to the Eucharist (i.e. giving us his flesh and blood as true food and true drink}. Non-Catholics do not believe Jesus in this regard either. Does that mean that they do not believe that Jesus is the savior and the son of God? Does that mean that they are not believers?

John 13:18 supports my view and position and in no way supports the idea that Judas did not believe. In fact, from the non-Catholic perspective it blows away the idea that Judas didn’t believe. Non-Catholics claim that the flesh and blood that Jesus is talking about in John 6 refers to “belief” and not to the literal consumption of the flesh and blood of the Lord. Apparently, under that interpretation Judas “believed” because he ate “my bread” per Jesus. Either way the idea that Judas didn’t believe is simply not supported by scripture.

It is for this reason that he is referred to as a “betrayer” and not an unbeliever.

 

[Philthy]

And how does he know what these sins are in order to avoid them?

What does walking by faith on a daily basis means in practical terms?
God Bless,
Michael

I hope you have more success determining the “practical” significance of MDs comments…

 

[Pax]

If anyone is “manufacturing,” it’s you. It matters not WHEN Jesus calls Judas “a devil” or “the son of perdition.” What matters is that He did.Matt. 14:33 does not at all prove Judas to be a believer. You’re reading that thought into the Scripture. OTOH, that verse does prove what happens in churches every Sunday. People “worship” Jesus as “God’s Son,” and yet never believe in their heart unto salvation.

This is all wishful thinking on your part. It matters a great deal when Jesus calls Judas a “devil.” Judas was also “chosen/elect” and is called one of the twelve. Does that mean that he is among twelve devils at the time of his calling? Of course it doesn’t. You simply cannot get around the fact that Judas believed that Jesus was the son of God. Scripture says that he did so it doesn’t matter what you say or think about what matters. How is it that someone can worship Jesus as the Son of God and never believe in their heart unto salvation? This is an oxymoron by way of your doctrines.

Based on your interpretation and shallow definition of “belief,” Pax, then, for you to be consistent, the following verses prove all creatures, men and angels, are believershil 2:9-11 “For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

This has nothing to do with my definitions, and I take exception to your opinion of the depth of my understanding of the term “belief.” Catholics realize that the term “belief” in scripture includes “obedience” something which you think is totally unnecessary. A little study of the greek in that regard will be helpful to you.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."It’s amazing to what extraordinary measures you’ll go to in order to try to prove that salvation can be lost.

I don’t need to go to any extraordinary lengths at all except to persuade you. Scripture is filled with passages that demonstrate that a person can lose their salvation. You don’t need to go far…just go straight to the scriptures.

Literally in the Greek it says, “…of what sort each man’s WORK is” (gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw"). This amounts to “quality.”

Sorry but you are still incorrect and quoting the NASB doesn’t help you. The most accurate translation is not “quality” but “sort” or “type.” This is made obvious by the comparison of the objects gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw. This is not a variation in quality between individual precious stones or the like. It is a comparison of “different” objects, or sorts, or types.

Much of Catholic soteriology circumvents the cross.Don’t be hypocritical, you’ve contributed to the OSAS discussion here.Then how will you know if you’ve burdened yourself enough to gain God’s approval for your future salvation? At least the Law of Moses was specific.I’m attempting no such effort. My effort is to show the fallacy of trying to turn the GRACE in which all true believers now stand into just another system of law:“For you are not under law but under grace”…says Paul.I completely agree. But what continually flies over your head is that those good works that “should” be walked in are reserved for those who "have been saved by grace, through faith, as a gift of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9), and are now “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10).

To lose such a gifted salvation based on grace through faith God would have to un-create that one whom He “created in Christ Jesus” upon belief in Him. God never “un-creates” anything. Unless you can give me an example of He doing so in Scripture.

Once again you attempt to attack a strawman. Please read what I have stated in the past concerning Ephesians 2:8-10.

Likewise God doesn’t have to uncreate anything in order for our view to be correct. That proposition is ridiculous. Read the parable of the Prodigal Son. He was “dead, and became alive again.” Paul tells us that we will die if we live in the flesh. What’s so hard about this?

 

[Philthy]

Not true.

Christ never loses what he claims for the Father … per John’s testimony of words of Christ.

If we chose to be apostates … we willingly forfeit our gift of salvation – deny Christ and his gift. Since his gift no longer has any worth / value to us … we in essense ask for a divorce from God’s family. Since salvation no longer has any ‘value’ to us … we don’t consider it a Loss. An apostate is glad to be rid of Christ.

Can one lose something they don’t value as worth or gain ? If we lose something of value … don’t we naturally seek to refind it ?

An apostate returns the gift of God’s love … and rejects the Giver.

Yes, later at the judgement it will be seen as a loss.

Listen, friend. You cannot simultaneously adhere to OSAS AND claim that we can “choose to be apostates” and reject Christ and his gift. If you believe you can, then you simply dont know what you are talking about. OSAS and apostosy(rejecting Christ, gifts, etc) are mutually exclusive. Again, if you disagree then you simply dont understand the topic and IMHO would be better as a spectator.

 

[Philthy]

If Judas had “faith” then the whole world is saved. :dts:

Unless, of course, you are wrong about salvation by faith alone.

 

[CentralFLJames]

This has nothing to do with my definitions, and I take exception to your opinion of the depth of my understanding of the term “belief.” Catholics realize that the term “belief” in scripture includes “obedience” something which you think is totally unnecessary.

John 8:32 (TEB) “If you obey my teaching you are really my disciples; you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

John 15:10 (NIV) “If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.”

Matt 28:20 (TEB) “…Teach them to **obey **everything I have commanded you.”

1 John 3:23 (NIV) And this is his command: **to believe **in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, **and to love **one another as he commands us.

John 14:23-24 (NIV) Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching… He who does not love me will not obey my teaching.”

1 John 2:4-5 (Phi) The man who claims to know God but does not obey his laws is not only a liar but lives in self-delusion. But the more a man obeys God’s laws the more truly and fully does he show his love for him. Obedience is the test of whether we live in God or not.

Note: The above verse implies different levels of obedience and love are possible. Catholicism attests to being the fullness of obedience and love and this had implicatins too for higher recognition with God both in heaven and on earth (perhaps answering prayers more quickly)

Luke 6:46 (Phi) “And what is the point of calling me ‘Lord, Lord’, without doing what I tell you to do.”

Luke 6:46-49 (NEB) “Why do you keep calling me, “Lord, Lord”–and** never do** what I tell you?.. But, he who **hears and does **not act is like a man who built his house on the soil without foundations. As soon as the rivers burst upon it, the house collapsed and fell with a great crash.”

Luke 11:28 (NIV) “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Matthew 7:21 (Jer) “It is not those who say unto me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.”

A.W. Tozer: "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience."
Romans 2:8 (NEB) …for those who are governed by selfish ambition, **who refuse obedience **to the truth and take the wrong for their guide, there will be the fury of retribution.

The above sounds to me just like those who teach a modern gospel of man that came out of the Protestant Revolution

Deuteronomy 30:17-18 (NIV) "If your heart turns away and you are not obedient… I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed

James

 

[BRB]

MD …

They are in a panic. Desperate for an ACE Pitcher/Hitters to come down from the Major Leagues, and give them a big inning surge.

Current Scoreboard:

Paul’s NT team… 5 hits / 4 runs / 0 errs
Moses’ OT team…3 hits / 1 run / TNTC errs

 

[Pax]

MD …

They are in a panic. Desperate for an ACE Pitcher/Hitters to come down from the Major Leagues, and give them a big inning surge.

Current Scoreboard:

Paul’s NT team… 5 hits / 4 runs / 0 errs
Moses’ OT team…3 hits / 1 run / TNTC errs

You have got to be kidding.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

You have got to be kidding.

I couldn’t believe it either, he actually gave us a run!

 

[BRB]

You are the master, MD. .

Well certainly the master of this debate … so far. Thanks for the kudos to Paul’s team.

But, MD’s illumination comes from a higher Master, as Lord

 

[Pax]

We are Paul’s team. Those that do not understand the apostle aren’t on any team at all.