The Confusion of Catholicism

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Okay, I’m snipping most of this because I’ve already responded to most of it. There is one point though, that bears responding to.

You have been asserting that Catholics are motivated to hate others because “what it means to be a Catholic is ambiguous”.

Here you say that what it means to be an American is ambiguous.

I do not think you will admit that Americans are motivated to hate non-Americans because “what it means to be an American is ambiguous.”

So you don’t get to claim such a thing about the Church.
You know what they say about when you “assume.” LOL

I would say some Americans are motivated to hate those they define as non-Americans because their self-identity is slipping away. Who is an American? Who gets to say? Why? We don’t know anymore! (Actually, I’d argue it’s always been ambiguous).

Consider that the Republican front runner for the highest executive office is a xenophobic racist, and potentially a quasi-fascist. He has millions of supporters. Think of hate groups like the KKK. They think of themselves as “real Americans” rescuing the “white race” from lower forms of humanity attempting to “take over our country.” These haters can’t handle the changing nature of what it means to be an American, and hate mobilizes them and clarifies their egos.
 
40,000 is a hyperbolic exaggeration. It is difficult to estimate the total number of differing forms of Christianity, because new ones are constantly developing while some older ones fade away.
So you’re saying you know that 40,000 isn’t a correct demographic, but you are also saying we can’t know how many there are?

How is that logical? :confused:

If 40,000 isn’t correct, then please offer the correct number, and your source for how this number was calculated, and I will be happy to use this number in the future, provided that your source is reliable and the statistic valid.

And make sure it includes this church, and every other independent church on every street corner of the world:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=20805&d=1411060938
 
The Magisterium–that is, the Pope and the Bishops in union with the Pope.
And how am I supposed to access this Magisterium? And would each of these Bishops agree on every point of doctrine?
 
What you quoted:

Your own words:

You persistently seem to use “this is ambiguous” when what you really mean is “I disbelieve”. That does not mean that I, or anyone else, must accept your definition of ambiguity.

The statement you quoted is quite clear, definite and unambiguous. That fact that it’s a little longer and more complex than 4+5=9 does not make it less clear or definite.

And your skepticism does not in the least undermine it. Either it is true or it is false, and your opinion does not alter the chances of either.
I know what “4” means. I know what “5” means. I have no idea the precise definition of “divinity” “whole divinity” “body” “blood” “truly, really, substantially” “contained” “sacrament” “Christ” “present”…etc.

You might say “the teaching authority of the Church knows what it means, and they say it is clear and unambiguous.”

How do you know? How could Lutherans have come up with “consubstantiation” if true Christians (which you believe to be Catholics) have always believed something distinct and unambiguous. Was Luther poorly catechized? Was he just dumb? Was he an agent of satan? Or…is it more likely he had a different opinion because the “teaching authority” isn’t so clear?
 
“It is essentially violent to assert that your religion is better or truer than another’s,”

…Then aren’t you being essentially violent by asserting that your religious position is better or truer than ours?

…In any case it seems the goalposts continue their gallop. Now all religion is violence.

I’m out. God bless you anyway, Pumpkin Cookie.
I am not asserting a religious position. I have offered a thesis to explain why it seems like Catholicism or any evangelical religion including Islam, are sometimes hateful. I have offered an explanation and provided some evidence. Others have attempted to knock down my idea that Catholicism is ambiguous. That’s fine. That’s why I made the thread. It isn’t a dogmatic position. I’m probably wrong. That’s OK. 👍

I don’t care what religion you practice. I don’t care what you believe. It’s all good. I don’t think you’re a hater. 🙂

Religion itself if not violence. The missionary impulse motivated by hate is violence.
 
Okay, just this one more, than I’m out.

Besides that, how is one to know?
By consulting the teaching authority of the Church.

How do we know that Unam Sanctam applies to a particular time and place, but Humani Generis doesn’t?
Consult the teaching authority of the Church.

How do we know the Council of Florence really meant such and such rather than so and so?
**Consult the teaching authority of the Church. **

Who gets to say?
**The teaching authority of the Church gets to say. **

God’s blessing to you, Pumpkin Coolie.
How do you know 1) who is the authority of the authority if authorities disagree? and 2) how do you know you have the correct understanding?
 
And yet, the magisterium of the Church – that is, the teaching authority – has unambiguously interpreted it. Yes, others try and add their own opinions to the mix. Yet, that means neither that there is ambiguity nor that the authoritative teaching is unclear.
To you. In your opinion. To an outsider, they have no idea what is going on, and they’re unable to figure it out unless they arbitrarily pick an “authority” to latch onto. Even then, they have no way of knowing if their understanding of the authority is right.
No – as others have noted, there are more potential reasons for argument than lack of clarity. The ‘centuries of conflict’ have more to do with denials of authority than with ambiguity.
OK sure, there of course are other explanations for the violent and conflict-filled history of Christianity. But, if the content of the beliefs themselves were just absolutely clear from the beginning, why did “heretics” pop up in the first place?

How do you know the real heretics didn’t “win?”
That some might disagree only demonstrates that each has his own opinion; it doesn’t demonstrate that an authoritative teaching does not exist.
Does each have their opinion about 4+5=9? Of course not! We have opinions about ambiguities and obscurities, not demonstrable facts.
 
Then you misunderstand the various types of documents.

It might proceed from the teachings of the Church, but that’s not what you were claiming: you were claiming that doctrine is found in each of these, which it does not.

You keep asking this question, but not acknowledging the answer: by referencing the authoritative teaching of the Church. It really is a simple answer – you just refuse to admit it. 🤷

It’s called ‘context’, Pumpkin. :rolleyes:
If you can’t recognize that all of the Church’s documents go together in the sense that they imply certain dogmas, then you’re not reading them! Various popes have issued directives having to do with dogma, doctrine, practice, liturgy, law, etc. Various councils have issued documents having to do with dogma, doctrine, practice, liturgy, law, etc. Huge doctrinal arguments and supposed “proofs” have been constructed on single fragments of text from ancient liturgies, or from archaeological evidence. People say Christians should pray with their hands out because some ancient mosaics depict early Christians this way. Official catechisms aren’t the only source of Catholic beliefs. That’s what I mean.

Who is the final authority? Is is the pope? Which one? When popes contradict each other, who “wins?” When councils contradict each other, which one holds? Newest? Oldest? Biggest? It seems that no one agrees about what is the final authority.

Maybe you think you know what it is. But that’s just your opinion. Others of equal knowledge disagree. How can they do this, if it is so obvious?
 
It’s not so much that I see the institutional Church as an embodiment of evil (rather the opposite, they help the poor, lonely, and ill). I see the ideology of rigid dogmatism and traditionalist Catholicism as harmful to humanity, chiefly to those who hold the ideology, but also to humanity in general although the influence is waning drastically in our times.
Good Morning PC,

That is understandable, given your history. So, if you met someone who felt hatred toward the Institution, and especially toward those who hold an ideology of rigid dogmatism and traditionalism, how would you approach him? Would you let him hate, or because of your own insights, would you be able to gently explain to him how to understand people of rigid ideology? Since those rigid individuals are definitely in his outgroup, would you be able to communicate that we all share such the capacity to be protective of ideologies?
It’s very hard to forgive myself you are right. I did so much harm to myself. When I see others tormenting themselves under the same hate, I want to reach out and grab their hate away from them. I resent the hate, because I know first hand that it almost led me to hate God. What a crime! I wish I could help put an end to it. How can I forgive myself if I allow others to continue down a path that I know leads to pain, anger, and despair?
Question for you: Why did God give us the capacity to hate? (From where does it come? What is its function?)
OK I can try that. How can we help stop the hate in others?
In my own experience, I addressed my own hate through awareness. There is some “shadow work” involved. For example, I hated Osama bin Laden. Understandable, right? So, I read up on him and came to understand his position and why he was blind to the humanity of certain groups. We cannot know everything about someone, but the specifics are not really important. What is important are questions like, “why would I do what he did?”; these questions go straight for what I condemn in myself, in my own past. Then, I work to understand why I committed my own sins. Awareness leads to understanding, which leads to mature forgiveness.

Hate is a triggered reaction. No one decides “I think I am going to hate that person today.”. (Okay, there may be some rare exceptions to address). I cannot stop the trigger in myself. The best I can do is at some point it dawns on me, “Oh I hate that person”! Then I know it is time to take the steps to understand and forgive. We cannot stop hate from happening any more than we can stop anger or disgust from happening. What we can do is encourage understanding and forgiveness.
👍 I include everyone. We’re all God’s children, even those of us who don’t believe in him, even those who hate him. Even animals, even plants, even dust, even vibrating strings of energy. Somebody must have slipped something into my drink this morning…😛
I must have had the same drink! Your view expresses theosis. (It is a great word, I have recently been introduced to it). Your view sounds so much like Saint Francis, Pope Francis too.
Thanks for contributing. A question: do you think my thesis makes sense? Is rigidly-dogmatic Catholicism a child of hate born in the absence of an ambiguous self-identity? I’m not too committed to it, anyway. If it turns out to be wrong, it would be interesting to figure out a better answer.
Wow, you really got me thinking on that now. As young people we hunger to belong to a group, and I know from studies that in order to have a feeling of meaningful membership, there has to be some sense of exclusivity. I remember a youth director telling me this; as counter-intuitive as it seems, to make a group meaningful, it has to have an exclusive feel about it. It is no wonder that there are bar-mitzvahs and rites of passage, they serve a secondary function: “now you are IN”. Street gangs work the same way. I can definitely relate, the Catholic Church did not provide that exclusivity, so I was drawn to fundamentalist Christianity (okay, by a girl friend). Whew, was I then exclusive! I cannot say that I took the wrong path, though, it was a part of my journey I had to live.

Indeed, I was a “victim” of Vatican II. Just when I needed a rigid institution, the institution itself was transforming. Ultimately, it was I who needed to transform, to grow.

So maybe it is not so much an ambiguous self-identity (which we all have as youngsters, think of all the personas people wear), but lack of meaningful group membership? Because here are some other items: for group membership to be meaningful, it has to be exclusive, it has to such that your absence is noticed and you have an important function, and people in the group have to care about the group. Yes, it is perhaps apathy of fellow Catholics that contributes to this meaninglessness, and leads to some people finding exclusive membership in rigid ideology or something else.

So, confusion? I’m sure it plays a role, but I’m thinking it is not the driving factor.🤷

It is so great talking about this topic with you. You have a very analytical mind.

🙂
 
I don’t think that dynamic drives atheism at all. And I don’t think atheists necessarily “hate” religion.
They simply do not believe a god exists.
They don’t* need* to agree on anything else…there is nothing else to agree or disagree about.

An atheist can use everything else they are and know and experience in their lives to “ground” themselves.
They don’t need a mission involving the hatred of religion to do that.

.
Have you read the comment boxes of any major news source, youtube, or reddit lately? It is a bottomless pit of hatred of religion in general, in my opinion.

I don’t think all atheists are motivated by hate, but there are certain atheists who consider themselves to be anti-theists in the sense that they think religion should be obliterated because it is harmful.

Yes, if a person is able to construct their own self-identity without hate, good for them! I suppose most people are able to do this. I’m trying to explain the haters.
 
Ok.

So Evangelization, as a concept, isn’t at its essence wrong.

So let’s go back to your original assertion–what you’re saying is that it’s wrong to evangelize if your Good News can’t be demonstrate.

And that’s begging the question.

You first have to prove that the kerygma can’t be demonstrated, in the same way that the truths of, say, the Peloponnesian Wars can’t be demonstrated.
No. The burden of proof is on you. You are making the claim that the gospel can be demonstrated.

Consider this scenario:

Me: My magic crystals can heal your back pain! Just give me $59.99 and we’ll get started!

You: No, I don’t believe that. People say all kinds of things about magic crystals. It’s not true.

Me: You’re begging the question! You have to prove that these crystals can’t do anything!

You: Ridiculous. I’m not going to make the sales pitch for you LOL. 😛
 
I find this type of thinking so peculiar.

“People disagree about a particular issue–confusion exists–therefore there is no truth that can be apprehended, in the end”.

In no other area of epistemology do you embrace this.

One has to wonder why, when it comes to the numinous, you do.
I never said that no truth can be apprehended, just that it is abundantly clear that we (as a species) haven’t, yet.

I do not know what the full truth of everything is. No one does (in my opinion). That doesn’t mean that no one can.

I’m an agnostic theist, because, given the information I have, I cannot say with certainty that God exists. I believe it though.

However, I won’t attempt to convince others, because I can’t demonstrate the truth of my belief. That would be wrong.
 
The first place I would look would be the Catechism.
But then am I not relying upon my own interpretation of the text, which may or may not differ from the meaning intended by the author? Isn’t that where ambiguity arises, not necessarily in the intent of the text, but in the interpretation of the text. And not because I’ve improperly defined the terms used in the text, but because they can be interpreted in dissimilar ways?
 
So you’re saying you know that 40,000 isn’t a correct demographic, but you are also saying we can’t know how many there are?

How is that logical? :confused:
Well, for all I know it really could be 40,000. Why don’t you take a survey among your brethren and tell me all about how unambiguous all of your beliefs are?
If 40,000 isn’t correct, then please offer the correct number, and your source for how this number was calculated, and I will be happy to use this number in the future, provided that your source is reliable and the statistic valid.

And make sure it includes this church, and every other independent church on every street corner of the world:
What do you count as a Christian denomination? I can’t count them until you tell me what counts? And, why is your opinion the one I should adopt? How do I know that you know how to distinguish a non-Christian from a Christian? Do Unitarians count? How do I know? How do I know that you know?

Not ambiguous at all…LOL…:whistle:
 
People are also debating whether 911 was a hoax.

serendipity.li/wot/911_a_hoax.htm

Surely you’re not saying that because of this we can’t know what’s actually true?
All historical events are more ambiguous than a priori or demonstrable knowledge. I seriously doubt that 9/11 was a hoax, but of course I can’t prove it. I watched it happen. But I don’t know all the details. Who knows? Do you? How do I know that you know?

Please don’t turn this thread into a 9/11 “truther” debate. We have enough issues to discuss here LOL.
 
To you. In your opinion. To an outsider, they have no idea what is going on, and they’re unable to figure it out unless they arbitrarily pick an “authority” to latch onto. Even then, they have no way of knowing if their understanding of the authority is right.
Oh, now I understand you! What you’re calling ‘ambiguity’, then, is simply ‘lack of knowledge’! Yes, I agree with you: there are many people who lack the knowledge of what the Church teaches authoritatively!

That’s not ‘ambiguity’, any more than (on my very first day in Calculus class) Calculus itself was ‘ambiguous’ – it was just unknown to me at that time. I think we’re done here, then, right? What you’re saying just boils down to “some people just don’t know.” Yep. I agree. 👍
OK sure, there of course are other explanations for the violent and conflict-filled history of Christianity. But, if the content of the beliefs themselves were just absolutely clear from the beginning, why did “heretics” pop up in the first place?
Where in the world, in the Bible, do you see Christ saying “all of this should be crystal clear to all ya’ll”?!?!? In fact, He says the exact opposite – His ministry will cause division, as people rebel against His teachings!
How do you know the real heretics didn’t “win?”
Read your Bible: Jesus promises Peter that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. I think I’d call it a victory for hell if heresy ruled His Church… 😉
 
Good Morning PC,

That is understandable, given your history. So, if you met someone who felt hatred toward the Institution, and especially toward those who hold an ideology of rigid dogmatism and traditionalism, how would you approach him? Would you let him hate, or because of your own insights, would you be able to gently explain to him how to understand people of rigid ideology? Since those rigid individuals are definitely in his outgroup, would you be able to communicate that we all share such the capacity to be protective of ideologies?

In my own experience, I addressed my own hate through awareness. There is some “shadow work” involved. For example, I hated Osama bin Laden. Understandable, right? So, I read up on him and came to understand his position and why he was blind to the humanity of certain groups. We cannot know everything about someone, but the specifics are not really important. What is important are questions like, “why would I do what he did?”; these questions go straight for what I condemn in myself, in my own past. Then, I work to understand why I committed my own sins. Awareness leads to understanding, which leads to mature forgiveness.

Hate is a triggered reaction. No one decides “I think I am going to hate that person today.”. (Okay, there may be some rare exceptions to address). I cannot stop the trigger in myself. The best I can do is at some point it dawns on me, “Oh I hate that person”! Then I know it is time to take the steps to understand and forgive. We cannot stop hate from happening any more than we can stop anger or disgust from happening. What we can do is encourage understanding and forgiveness.

I must have had the same drink! Your view expresses theosis. (It is a great word, I have recently been introduced to it). Your view sounds so much like Saint Francis, Pope Francis too.

Wow, you really got me thinking on that now. As young people we hunger to belong to a group, and I know from studies that in order to have a feeling of meaningful membership, there has to be some sense of exclusivity. I remember a youth director telling me this; as counter-intuitive as it seems, to make a group meaningful, it has to have an exclusive feel about it. It is no wonder that there are bar-mitzvahs and rites of passage, they serve a secondary function: “now you are IN”. Street gangs work the same way. I can definitely relate, the Catholic Church did not provide that exclusivity, so I was drawn to fundamentalist Christianity (okay, by a girl friend). Whew, was I then exclusive! I cannot say that I took the wrong path, though, it was a part of my journey I had to live.

Indeed, I was a “victim” of Vatican II. Just when I needed a rigid institution, the institution itself was transforming. Ultimately, it was I who needed to transform, to grow.

So maybe it is not so much an ambiguous self-identity (which we all have as youngsters, think of all the personas people wear), but lack of meaningful group membership? Because here are some other items: for group membership to be meaningful, it has to be exclusive, it has to such that your absence is noticed and you have an important function, and people in the group have to care about the group. Yes, it is perhaps apathy of fellow Catholics that contributes to this meaninglessness, and leads to some people finding exclusive membership in rigid ideology or something else.

So, confusion? I’m sure it plays a role, but I’m thinking it is not the driving factor.🤷

It is so great talking about this topic with you. You have a very analytical mind.

🙂
:clapping:Excellent post. That’s what I like about this thread, there have been some excellent posts from both sides of the debate.
 
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