The Cows Come Home

[Norwich]

Scott_Lafrance:

The Holy Father’s dissent of the Iraq war was as a private theologian and head of state. .

No… the Holy Fathers dissent was as head of the Catholic Church, the succesor to Peter, the holder of the keys, and leader of the Universal Catholic on earth, the Church is built on obedience to the Pope and a love of God. Ignore one and you deny the other, it’s that simple.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

The Pope’s dissent of the war was not made ex cathedra, so no, he was NOT speaking as the head of the Catholic Church, but rather as the head of state of Vatican city. The statement was not infallible, nor was it morally binding.

No… the Holy Fathers dissent was as head of the Catholic Church, the succesor to Peter, the holder of the keys, and leader of the Universal Catholic on earth, the Church is built on obedience to the Pope and a love of God. Ignore one and you deny the other, it’s that simple.

 

[TheGarg]

Werner:

Good grief, hypocrisy here for sure is crying to heaven.

This thread started as a bashing of Europeans by Americans,

**True, not really bashing just telling the truth.
**

Werner:

some Europeans started defending themselves and posted US government resources to show the accusations where not only false, but au contraire, the accusations fell back on the US.

**not true!
The europeans in this room didn’t defend themselves from the original context of the thread, which was originally aimed at “Now that the hardwork and fighting are over they[Europeans] are ready to jump in and hog some glory”. Instead, the europeans in this room, tried to change the subject and provided links to who bought how much oil from Iraq…

…by the way who cares?
**

Werner:

And then, instead of saying “oh sorry, didn’t know that, i had wrong informations” our American friends start crying and whining about antiamericanism and complain about America bashing Europeans.

**
Thats because I’m not sorry, I’m pretty fed up with my European freinds, and I’m gonna continue to “bash” them with the truth, till they give America an apology.

**

Werner:

It was you who was bashing we just were defending ourselves!

…and doing a poor job of it[defending yourselves], i might add, but that is nothing unusual…

Werner:

A second thought: I am always amazed how the very same people who always sing the song of “but the church says, but the Pope means, but Cardinal Ratzinger wants” suddenly say “to heck with what the Pope says” when it is contrary to their believes, like with the war in Iraq.

**The Pope speaks for himself, unlike some of the other Europeans in here who like to tell me what the Pope is thinking…{COUGHMATT25COUGH}
**

Werner:

How did i say above? Hypocrisy here for sure is crying to heaven

Werner

Amen brother, so change your evil ways!

here is a link to the proof you require…

americaiscoolerthananycountryineuropeonemoretimethanyoucaneversay.com/+1/+infinity/andbeyond.htm

 

[Werner]

Scott_Lafrance:

The Pope’s dissent of the war was not made ex cathedra, so no, he was NOT speaking as the head of the Catholic Church, but rather as the head of state of Vatican city. The statement was not infallible, nor was it morally binding.

The Pope never ever in his whole live has spoken “just as the Vatican head of state”.

Whatever he says he says as the head of the Catholic church, no matter if it fits your political views or not.
Cardinal Echegaray in Bagdad before the war:

At the heart of our meeting were the Iraq people who, I have noted from Baghdad to Mossoul, aspire so much to a just and lasting peace after years of suffering, for which the Pope and the universal Church have always expressed their solidarity.

The Pope in his angelus prayer 1.January 2003:

How can we not express once more the wish that world leaders do everything in their power to find peaceful solutions to the many tensions present in the world, especially in the Middle East, avoiding further suffering for those peoples who have been so sorely tried? May human solidarity and law prevail!

The Pope in his New Years Day homilie 2003:

This year’s Message commemorates Pacem in terris on the 40th anniversary of its publication. The content of this authoritative and historical document of Pope John XXIII is a “permanent mandate” for believers and people of good will in this time burdened with tensions, and also rich with many positive expectations.
When Pacem in terris was written, there were menacing clouds on the horizon and the nightmare of an atomic war hung over humanity.

My venerable Predecessor, whom I had the joy of raising to the honours of the altar, was not overcome by the temptation to discouragement.(…)

His teaching remains timeless. Today, as then, despite the serious, repeated attacks on the peaceful, solidary harmony of peoples, peace is possible and necessary. Indeed, peace is the most precious good to ask of God and to build with every effort, by means of concrete gestures of peace on the part of every man and woman of good will

These and dozens more of the Pope’s calls for peace can be found here: vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/peace/prayer-peace_index.html

Don’t dare to tell the Holy Father didn’t speak as the head of the church when he opposed the war!

Werner

 

[Matt25]

Werner:

The Pope never ever in his whole live has spoken “just as the Vatican head of state”.

Whatever he says he says as the head of the Catholic church, no matter if it fits your political views or not.

These and dozens more of the Pope’s calls for peace can be found here: vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/peace/prayer-peace_index.html

Don’t dare to tell the Holy Father didn’t speak as the head of the church when he opposed the war!

Werner

Well said Werner

 

[FightingFat]

Werner:

Good grief, hypocrisy here for sure is crying to heaven.

This thread started as a bashing of Europeans by Americans, some Europeans started defending themselves and posted US government resources to show the accusations where not only false, but au contraire, the accusations fell back on the US.

And then, instead of saying “oh sorry, didn’t know that, i had wrong informations” our American friends start crying and whining about antiamericanism and complain about America bashing Europeans.

It was you who was bashing we just were defending ourselves!

A second thought: I am always amazed how the very same people who always sing the song of “but the church says, but the Pope means, but Cardinal Ratzinger wants” suddenly say “to heck with what the Pope says” when it is contrary to their believes, like with the war in Iraq.

How did i say above? Hypocrisy here for sure is crying to heaven

Werner

:clapping:
BRAVO!

 

[Norwich]

I see our friend Garg is playing Cafeteria Catholicism again. I assume that as the Pope didn’t send him a personal message it was not actually what the Pope meant.

Not all statements by the Pope are Ex-Cathedra, if that was the case all the episcopal letters, even Vatican II would no longer have validity.

Cardinal Heenan in a television interview once said "the essence of christianity is authority" in this case the authority of the Church and the authority of the descendant of Peter. The Pope is PETER, and what he says, ex-cathedra or not is the word of the Church, the Universal Church, in fact ALL the Church. (Except of course those that don’t like what he says).

p.s. Still haven’t answered the oil question yet.

Oh, and if nobody cares about America breaking UN sanctions (your **who cares **comment) why do you get so upset about somebody in the UN ripping off oil money, or is it because its YOUR oil money. (now there’s a thought).

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Norwich:

p.s. Still haven’t answered the oil question yet.

I know, we’re waiting.

 

[Brad]

Werner:

The Pope never ever in his whole live has spoken “just as the Vatican head of state”.

Whatever he says he says as the head of the Catholic church, no matter if it fits your political views or not.

These and dozens more of the Pope’s calls for peace can be found here: vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/peace/prayer-peace_index.html

Don’t dare to tell the Holy Father didn’t speak as the head of the church when he opposed the war!

Werner

The Pope never delcared the Iraq war unjust. He personally disagreed with the war using the facts that he knew at the time. This belief does not bind the conscious of the faithful or he would have clearly stated as such. As the catechism clearly states, Catholics can have differing opionions about whether a war is just.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Brad:

The Pope never delcared the Iraq war unjust. He personally disagreed with the war using the facts that he knew at the time. This belief does not bind the conscious of the faithful or he would have clearly stated as such. As the catechism clearly states, Catholics can have differing opionions about whether a war is just.

No no no, whatever comes out of the Pope’s mouth is eternally binding upon the Catholic conscience.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_6_4.gif

 

[quijote]

Werner:

OK, go to the following link
eia.doe.gov/emeu/ipsr/t417.xls
It is a source from your own government showing the the US got several times more oil from Saddam than all European countries together between 1996 and 2003.

In 2003 alone the US got more than 4 times as much oil from Saddam than all European countries together.

Especially have a look on how much Germany got from Saddam.

Even France, which was the biggest European importer of Saddam’s oil during those years, never got nearly as much as the US

Werner

Perhaps I don’t understand the point of your link, but it seems to me that the “oil for food” program was established so that the world would purchase oil from Iraq with the understanding that Iraq would use the money from those sells to purchase food (and medicines, etc…). Hence the name “oil for food”.

It makes sense that the US imported more oil from Iraq than any European country since the US economy is so much larger.

What is the point of your link and argument?

Cheers

 

[HagiaSophia]

Perhaps I don’t understand the point of your link, but it seems to me that the “oil for food” program was established so that the world would purchase oil from Iraq with the understanding that Iraq would use the money from those sells to purchase food (and medicines, etc…). Hence the name “oil for food”.

It makes sense that the US imported more oil from Iraq than any European country since the US economy is so much larger.

What is the point of your link and argument?

Cheers

Thank you for giving expression to what most Americans know but apparently escaped the notice of the OP - there was a legal program and the US purchased approx. 16% of its oil from Iraq.

It won’t make any difference though - talking to members of the Greek chorus is like a sieve - facts and history just flow right on by.

 

[wabrams]

Here’s the answer to the oil question:

Yes, we imported more oil from Iraq than most of Europe combined. We go all over the world telling every rat hole 3rd world country how wrong they are: Haiti, the Phillipines, Cuba, Somalia, Vietnam, Korea, Nicaragua, etc. We tell them how wrong they are and how Democracy is the best thing there is. And by God, it is the best thing there is to offer. But we go in and do a half way job of it or manipulate the new “Democratic” gov’t into doing what we want it to do, then leave the country in shambles. And when it reaches a boiling point and comes back to haunt us, we shrug our shoulders and ask, “why? why us?” You can’t wash your hands of past transgretions and claim innocence when it comes back to bite you. How many times have we had to “intervene” in Haiti? How many “free elections” have we disrupted? How many country’s have we exploited or manipulated b/c in the here and now it suited our best interests at that very moment? How many wars do you think this country has fought that we were totally innocent when it started? One, the Revolution. War of 1812, WWI, and WWII were good wars we needed to involve ourselves in. But only one war did we not provoke or sit back and let it boil over. So now we go to Iraq and try to clean up our old mess from over 20 years ago. Maybe we’ll learn something, maybe we won’t, but we keep going with our heads held high. So p*ss on Europe and their firm stance against us. Heck, they’ve only been doing this 250+ years before us, so what do they know? But as the hard headed new kid on the block, we’ve got to learn and try in our own unique way. Sometimes experience is the best teacher.

 

[Norwich]

HagiaSophia:

Thank you for giving expression to what most Americans know but apparently escaped the notice of the OP - there was a legal program and the US purchased approx. 16% of its oil from Iraq.

It won’t make any difference though - talking to members of the Greek chorus is like a sieve - facts and history just flow right on by.

the link is very simple, look back on these posts and you will see how some have said that Germany and France had their finghers in the pot getting dirty by trading with Iraq. So whats buying oil from them doing?

 

[HagiaSophia]

Norwich:

the link is very simple, look back on these posts and you will see how some have said that Germany and France had their finghers in the pot getting dirty by trading with Iraq. So whats buying oil from them doing?

In case you had not noticed in life, sometimes it isn’t what you do it’s HOW you do it. As the OP pointed out, there was a legal program, oil for food and then there was the other method (under the table, through the French and Swiss banks and right into the private acocounts). That’s why today one of the French banks got their subpoena. As for the Germans - since their post Munich surrender to the terrorists on their soil and their recent announcement to Jews not to wear their yarmulkes in public because the police can’t protect them, I really don’t need their advice or their criticsm. Best for them to address the “home ground”.

 

[Werner]

HagiaSofia:

In case you had not noticed in life, sometimes it isn’t what you do it’s HOW you do it. As the OP pointed out, there was a legal program, oil for food and then there was the other method (under the table, through the French and Swiss banks and right into the private acocounts).

In case you had not noticed the accusations were about the oil for food program (“they” is Germany and France):

Lance:

Scott_Lafrance:

I think they are still a little miffed that we ruined their Oil-for-Food “investments”.

I think more than a little miffed. I like the way you phrased it–Oil-for-Food “investments”.

It is always an advantage to read before posting.

Werner

 

[HagiaSophia]

Werner:

In case you had not noticed the accusations were about the oil for food program (“they” is Germany and France):
It is always an advantage to read before posting.

Werner

It’s an even larger advantage to follow the thread so you can tell what others are responding to.

 

[Werner]

HagiaSophia:

It’s an even larger advantage to follow the thread so you can tell what others are responding to.

Good grief, did you even understand what this thread is about? Obviously not.

Werner

 

[quijote]

Norwich:

the link is very simple, look back on these posts and you will see how some have said that Germany and France had their finghers in the pot getting dirty by trading with Iraq.

]

I thought that those accusing Germany and France of “getting their finger dirty” did so because some in Germany and France were getting kickbacks from Iraq to keep quiet on illegal doing from Hussein. Not from buying oil legally under the “oil for food” program but for taking kickbacks and turning a blind eye to that.

So whats buying oil from them doing?

Again, I understood that the “oil for food” program was legal and approved by the UN to alleviate the suffering of the people of Iraq by allowing the government of Iraq use the money from selling oil to buy medicine and food for its citizens. In a perfect world, buying oil from Iraq under the “oil for food” program would have helped the people of Iraq.

Cheers

 

[quijote]

wabrams:

Here’s the answer to the oil question:

Yes, we imported more oil from Iraq than most of Europe combined.

Agreed, that was proven by the link provided.

We go all over the world telling every rat hole 3rd world country how wrong they are: Haiti, the Phillipines, Cuba, Somalia, Vietnam, Korea, Nicaragua, etc. We tell them how wrong they are and how Democracy is the best thing there is. And by God, it is the best thing there is to offer. But we go in and do a half way job of it or manipulate the new “Democratic” gov’t into doing what we want it to do, then leave the country in shambles. And when it reaches a boiling point and comes back to haunt us, we shrug our shoulders and ask, “why? why us?” You can’t wash your hands of past transgretions and claim innocence when it comes back to bite you. How many times have we had to “intervene” in Haiti? How many “free elections” have we disrupted? How many country’s have we exploited or manipulated b/c in the here and now it suited our best interests at that very moment? How many wars do you think this country has fought that we were totally innocent when it started? One, the Revolution. War of 1812, WWI, and WWII were good wars we needed to involve ourselves in. But only one war did we not provoke or sit back and let it boil over.

I agree that the US is not paradise on earth and that the US government has made many mistakes/injustices in the past (just ask us Mexicans why we lost half of our country to the US). Having said that, the US has also done many good things in the past and continues to do so. Have mistakes made by the US come back and “bit us in the behind”? sure, should those mistakes stop us from doing what we believe is right, I say no.

So now we go to Iraq and try to clean up our old mess from over 20 years ago. Maybe we’ll learn something, maybe we won’t, but we keep going with our heads held high.

We mad a mess of Iraq 20 yrs ago. We have a choice, to try to clean it up or leave it a mess. We left it a mess for 20 years andnow we’ve decided to clean it up. I agree that we are learning much from this task, and I darn sure hope that we keep our heads held high.

So p*ss on Europe and their firm stance against us. Heck, they’ve only been doing this 250+ years before us, so what do they know? But as the hard headed new kid on the block, we’ve got to learn and try in our own unique way. Sometimes experience is the best teacher.

I think that just like many Europeans don’t hate America, many Americans don’t hate France, Germany and the other European countries that opposed the US in Iraq. I think there is frustration on both sides for not seeing how each side thinks is right and how stubborn the other side can be. I think, in the end, the politicians in the US and Europe would mend fences regarding Iraq and then be at eachother throats about something else soon after that.

Cheers.