The Crisis in the Catholic Church

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I really wish people just plain don’t like Pope Francis would stop demonizing him and saying he’s promoting things that he simply is not.
People should leave the leadership of the Church to its leaders.
No one here is a theologian or even remotely qualified to tear apart AL.
It’s written for Bishops.
They will implement it after prayer, discernment, and instruction from the Pope.
All others need not apply.

Starting threads that encourage the laity to doubt the Holy Father (some of whom are lurking and don’t totally understand the issues) is very bad form.

I’m very sad that CAF allows it.
 
I do not know how you got that. All I called him was “some guy”. It was his writing I called and emotional argument. It is a simple matter to click on it and start highlighting those words which are used for emotional impact.

https://illinoisfamily.org/uncategorized/catholic-troubled-cupichs-statement/

Like this:

Cardinal Cupich’s statement, however well-intentioned, is a worrisome summary of present day Catholic relativism. Indeed, he adds significantly to the magisterial relativism which is unraveling the Church at all levels, from Baltimore’s Fr. Joseph Muth and his celebration of lesbian marriages to Cardinal Cupich’s notions of an “adult” Catholic to Pope Francis and his oft-confusing commentaries.

FYI - Placing the word “adult” in scare quotes misses that it was St. Paul that first introduced the concept upon which Catholic teaching on conscience and Cardinal Cupich’s statement was made, except St. Paul used the words “babes” and “mature” to distinguish these types of spirituality, rule-based versus conscience-based. This same concept was commonly taught and understood among those I knew as a Baptist.
 
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If everything was so clear cut, there would not be requests for clarification or a correction.
eddietoo said:
who determines when a conversation is constructive (am i correct to understand that by constructive you mean beneficial to both or all parties in the conversation)?
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At this point, we should be happy just to be able to have the conversation. Even that’s becoming a bit of a luxury.
 
We are not called to blind obedience - what I posted is my opinion and that doesn’t make it right - also anyone can flag a post or talk to the supervisor of the forum.
 
Does anyone here maybe think that what is going on with Francis and the Bishops is a classic negotiation process. One that in the end will bring about a resolution guided by the Holy Spirit. To elucidate; In a negotiation, one party, wanting 100 dollars asks for two hundred. The other part offers twenty five. After much back and forth, they settle on eighty five. Classic negotiation strategy.
Do you think that Francis is looking for a “solution” to the irregular marriage situation where tens of thousand Catholics in such situations are leaving the Church for some other denomination that has no boundaries at all. Is what Francis wants, those in irregular marriages petition for an anullment (external form) If one is not forthcoming because of the inability to discern the truth, yet the tribunal believes that the petitioner has a valid case (though it cannot be proved) then the local bishop has the recourse to employ the internal forum solution to allow the petitioner (and his/her family) to live and grow in the faith. It seems to me that objectively, Pope Francis is in effect saying, “let us be merciful, and let God be God, He will judge in the end.”

My two cents
 
God is using all of this for divine and eternal purpose. If only we prayed over this as much as we murmur and write over it.
 
that’s for sure - He is allowing it for very good reason - some of us may think we know why but none knows for certain.
 
he is not just “some guy” - you are belittling him by saying that - you further belittle him by not speaking specifically to what he says but make an argument that using “emotional” words somehow is an effort to make a respectable impact without putting forth substance. I am not asking you to respond to what he said but to recognize that there are legitimate concerns from him and others. We are, and I include myself, quick to circle the wagons to defend our position - I think there is truth on both sides and if we work at it, which includes respectful interaction in this forum, which I know is sometimes difficult, we can work through these issues. We need to remember that it is our salvation at stake and I know no one wants to be on the wrong side of the fence.
 
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pnewton said:
(in answer to what "adult spirituality means) It means being able to, in some way, realize that you have the grace by God to discern truth in your life in term of where the Lord is calling you to the next step.
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what do you think of this?
When asked if the same “internal forum” could be used to secure Communion for sexually active homosexuals, he said that it could. “When people who are in good conscience working with a spiritual director come to a decision, then they need to follow that conscience. That’s the teaching of the Church. So in the case of people receiving Communion in situations that are irregular that also applies. The question then was: Does that apply to gay people? My answer was: they’re human beings too. They have a conscience. Thy have to follow their conscience.”

So the Cardinal says it applies to “irregular” situations people are in - it seems to me that 5 years ago the answer would have been no - why? because sexual relations between same sex people is condemned by scripture and official teaching. It seems to me some of our leaders are trying very hard to create “wiggle room” where there is none. It would be great if it was there but it would have been found long ago I think. I think our church leaders are trying desperately to save a dying religion (which will never totally die) by making it relevant in today’s world but unfortunately at the cost of not acknowledging the elephant in the room - which is scripture in this case.
 
There will always be " A Crisis in the Catholic Church " or a " scandal " it is run by elected men with in a monarchy not divinely hand chosen people by God who have periodic spiritual revelations and or conversations with God in pillars of smoke or else where. As long as you have individuals in the Church wanting to maintain their power so that they can achieve what ever agenda they have, be it personal, finanical, good or bad, there will always be something going on and those who serve the papacy who are always undermining the Pope because a Pope isn’t doing what they hoped he would do when they elected him.

It is just private politics with in the vatican that trickle down to the priesthood and create more problems than they are worth, and then it is up to the individual to determine with common sense that God has given them to try and correct a situation, follow one if it is beneficial and good, get out of the way, or abandon ship and hope that they don’t burn in " purgatory " or hell for eternity for not wanting to be apart of the Catholic Church.
  • Disclaimer: none of this is a personal attack on anyone or the Church, it is what it is, not positive or negative; if you don’t like it, I don’t care, but feel free to disagree, knowing that I won’t reply to you or read what you have to say. An I won’t engage in attempts at baiting *
 
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well there is certainly truth in what you say, unfortunately.
 
Are you implying that Pope Francis is in league with Satan re: situational ethics?

I’ll answer my own question. Yes. Yes, you are.

Interesting that you only joined the forum Sept. 8.

There have been several new arrivals who tend to stir up anti-Francis controversy ever since CAF moved to the new format
 
The Catholic Church is not a popularity contest. If we start watering down teaching and blowing with the untenable cultural winds of the West…well, if you think there’s a problem with people leaving now, just you wait.

People want logic and consistency in their lives and principle. That’s not the narrative that comes from cultural media anymore in the developed world, but the trends show it’s pretty strong.

But the underlying principle is Truth. And I know one concerned priest who recently gave an interview on this said he doesn’t want Communion to become some morally relative thing.

And for those who keep asking not just on the Forums: yeah, it’s a problem because as another priest said “it’s like you can have two different sets of rules in Poland vs. Germany”.
 
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oppositeman13 said:
. I think our church leaders are trying desperately to save a dying religion (which will never totally die) by making it relevant in today’s world but unfortunately at the cost of not acknowledging the elephant in the room - which is scripture in this case.
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If that’s the case with any religion, it will backfire.
 
Let’s try to stick to what I said in the post. I don’t believe anywhere in the bible God forgives any sin (and therefore one can receive communion) until a person repents. For one to think, and correct me if I am wrong, that God forgives sin ie shows mercy, while one discerns with a priest how to correct a serious sin they are committing, does not exist in the bible. It’s a good thing a person has the help of a priest to change their circumstances so they are not sinning. But to tell the person they can receive communion while they are figuring it out is wrong, I believe. A priest cannot tell someone they can receive communion in the state of serious sin, so by allowing them to do so while they are “discerning” how to change their situation, in essence, they have to be denying the seriousness of the sin.
 
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oppositeman13 said:
he is not just “some guy” - you are belittling him by saying that - you further belittle him by not speaking specifically to what he says but make an argument that using “emotional” words somehow is an effort to make a respectable impact without putting forth substance
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That is your opinion, not mine. Random bloggers without any authority are the scourge of the internet. They cannot be viewed any other way. And not, my salvation is not at stake on this issue. That is another opinion you have that I have. I see no reason for we to work through this issue. The Catholic Church is not a democracy and most laity are woefully unequipped to understand this issue, as in the guy you posted who kept saying that this is an issue of moral relativism, again, in my opinion. I believe this has been another case of internet rumor mill twisting the words of Cardinal Cupich a little here and a little there until it said what people with “strong opinions” wanted it to say. Then it took off. That is why I do not believe, or base any concern, on what someone said that someone said, which is most of what passes for journalism on the internet.

Is everyone just as gullible with the mainstream media, or is it a gullibility based on confirmation bias?
 
“Random bloggers” wouldn’t have much to say if the Vatican would do its JOB and clear this up.

IF only they put as much energy into this as they do talking about political affairs like immigration and climate change.

Disappointing.
 
SuperLuigi said:
“Random bloggers” wouldn’t have much to say if the Vatican would do its JOB and clear this up
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That is a matter of opinion, specifically, this incessant need to have an opinion on everything. If there is nothing to have an opinion about, some are still compelled to make an issue to have an opinion. Look at how every mundane thing the President does is turned into some kind of issue. I have seen journalism conjure contronversy ex nihilo, so to speak.

It’s a miracle!

I know there is plenty to discuss on this issue, but the level of discussion is more a function of modern society, I fear.
 
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pnewton said:
That is a matter of opinion, specifically, this incessant need to have an opinion on everything
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No, this is about people doing their jobs and understanding the issues. To do otherwise is to risk scandal.
 
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