The Crisis in the Catholic Church

[BarbTh]

Ghosty1981
The response that it comes down to individual conscience and culpability answers part of the question, but not the whole issue. There is also an objective component involved, in particular with regard to Canon 915, and that has not been addressed clearly yet.

It isn’t the place of the laity and less educated to defiantly question the Pope and the Bishops, but we would have to be blind not to see that there are some real difficulties that are playing out publicly. Prayerful concern seems warranted, just as it is with any apparent difficulty.

I think it is Canon 915 that is probably being discussed in this thread. Canon 915: Code of Canon Law: text - IntraText CT

I tend to think that it is indeed most necessary for the laity to understand what Pope Francis and our Bishops are saying since what is under discussion is mortal sin what it is and is not - and mortal sin can condemn one forever to Hell, laity included. Be that as it may we are called to obedience to The Church - just now, however, there is some conflict in The Church and on a subject directly connected to salvation.

 

[oppositeman13]

this is my vision of what is happening - it’s simple and I think we are making it complex.

BEFORE ---- I could not receive communion

DISCERNMENT ------- consider my situation/circumstances

AFTER --------- I can receive communion (not everyone but some or even many)

why doesn’t this sound like situation ethics?

now if you are going to say it is more complex don’t bother because to me it is simple. I think many people want this to work and are trying desperately to make it fit together when there is no way it ever will - but I realize I may be wrong - but as it stands right now I am with Cardinal Burke who say no no no to communion for the remarried unless they can live as sister and brother.

 

[BarbTh]

why doesn’t this sound like situation ethics?

I think what might need to happen is for you to define for the purpose of the thread what exactly you mean by “situation ethics”. If discerning whether grave matter was at the same time full knowledge and full consent is what you call “situation ethics” then it is situation ethics. I tend to think of situation ethics as being so long as one has a good purpose or goal in mind anything goes. Others might have other understandings.
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=318015&Pgnu=&recnu=

 

[oppositeman13]

I provide a definition in the post but one has to follow the link because the post was too long - this is what the post says:

By definition, situation ethics is the doctrine of flexibility in the application of moral laws according to circumstances.

 

[BarbTh]

I think many people want this to work and are trying desperately to make it fit together when there is no way it ever will - but I realize I may be wrong - but as it stands right now I am with Cardinal Burke who say no no no to communion for the remarried unless they can live as sister and brother.

I tend to think that you are correct in some ways of the above although I hold to what Pope Francis is saying in AL. Both ‘sides’ are trying desperately to provide good reasons for their choice - I certainly am I know. It does mean that if one holds to Cardinal Burke, then all gossip must cease about those living together who go to Holy Communion. They must, it seems to me, be presumed as living together as brother and sister, i.e. without conjugal relations. Charity demands this.

 

[BarbTh]

By definition, situation ethics is the doctrine of flexibility in the application of moral laws according to circumstances.

The above definition is broad - I do think my definition fits within it that providing I have a good reason and goal the means are thereby good. That is situation ethics to me and it is most definitely not what AL is saying.
At no point in AL is an issue in the moral law changed from forbidden to allowed. The moral law is objective theological determinations of what is and is not grave matter in this instance. However for mortal sin (another subject) two other conditions are required with grave matter - and these are subjective issues for discernment.

 

[BarbTh]

I absolutely take blame I’ve done wrong too, but to be quite honest I just never understood the hatred spewed from both sides. We are all the body of Christ whether we are Catholic, Protestant, or whatever as long as we know Jesus is Lord.

I agree with you. We are all, without any exceptions whatsoever, beloved children of The Father. We are all without exceptions whatsoever persons for whom The Son, Jesus, incarnated and then lived and cruelly died. We are all without exception beloved subjects of The Holy Spirit.

And hatred, no matter its object, is a point of grave matter to me. I don’t understand it. For me, hatred is to wish another evil.

 

[Ghosty1981]

Be that as it may we are called to obedience to The Church - just now, however, there is some conflict in The Church and on a subject directly connected to salvation.

Indeed. I don’t understand the vitriol and the assumptions of bad faith. It is one thing to recognize that the Church is in difficult times, and I think we can all agree at this point that it is on some level. It is another to constantly accuse Bishops and the Pope of trying to destroy the Faith (on either side of the issue).

There is plenty of room for turmoil to arise from Holy intentions on both sides, and I think we should be charitable in our evaluation of our Pope and Bishops. Let those with knowledge and authority work it out; we have plenty of prayer we can do to help them along. Of course this doesn’t mean we can’t discuss and have our own views, but we must remain humble.

Peace and God bless!

 

[BarbTh]

I feel this way, see I longed to join the Church fully since I was a youngin but what I have seen said and done prevents me from fully committing. Truth be told I’ve been hurt all around from every angle Protestant and Catholic.

Very sorry indeed to read, kristaok, of your having been hurt and it seems quite badly. I will keep you in my own prayers for healing. It is very sad indeed, but we humans are faulted and weak creatures capable of most anything as history reveals. Until Jesus Returns, sadly again, The Church will be comprised of such human beings.

God Bless and may you live in His Peace.

 

[oppositeman13]

We need to always continue calling the world to the truth of Catholicism. Our allegiance is to Christ and His Church and not to make Catholicism easier for the world. I firmly believe the truth is being comprised by the implementation of AL and if I and others are correct, will lead to disaster - schism - yes - but even much worse would be the loss of souls. What needs to happen is for priest to start speaking about the demands of living out our faith in this troubled world - challenge people to grow in holiness - fast, no meat on friday and many other things - people need to get to confession.

Do you know that most, and I have done the research, parishes or moderate size offer confession from 45 to 60 minutes a week? If a person is in confession for 3 minutes that makes 20 people a week - people need to go to confession at least once a month - very few are doing that and priests don’t talk about it - HELL IS REAL.

 

[BarbTh]

There is plenty of room for turmoil to arise from Holy intentions on both sides, and I think we should be charitable in our evaluation of our Pope and Bishops. Let those with knowledge and authority work it out; we have plenty of prayer we can do to help them along. Of course this doesn’t mean we can’t discuss and have our own views, but we must remain humble.

Well said. I agree wholeheartedly. The early Church began in and grew through conflict and it continues in conflict. We will grow through it. May The Lord gift His Meek and Humble Heart, His Humility, to us as we do try to grow through our journeys with and in The Church.

 

[BarbTh]

priests don’t talk about it - HELL IS REAL.

I agree. From my experience and that means it is limited, people I’ve spoken with are confused about what is and what is not mortal sin requiring Confession. We are confused about much in The Church - and most of it has media origin and foundation rightly or wrongly, plenty of both.

I tend to agree with Pope Benedict:

Excerpt only: “And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.” http://www.catholiceducation.org/en...ritual-life/the-church-will-become-small.html (this is only a very short article and worth reading it all)

Be everything as it may, we cannot cling to what was incorrect but had good results. THAT TO ME IS INDEED SITUATIONAL ETHICS. That the end justifies the means.

 

[Rau]

People should leave the leadership of the Church to its leaders.

OK (at least in so far as this matter is concerned…), but the leaders themselves are struggling with the topic.

No one here is a theologian or even remotely qualified to tear apart AL. It’s written for Bishops.

It is addressed rather more widely: “TO BISHOPS, PRIESTS AND DEACONS
CONSECRATED PERSONS, CHRISTIAN MARRIED COUPLES AND ALL THE LAY FAITHFUL”

 

[oppositeman13]

careful now - Christ says in many ways in the gospels you will know them by their fruit - another - something like - a good tree doesn’t bear bad fruit and a bad tree can’t bear good fruit.

Since AL there has been growing division, uncertainty, and confusion - not a good start to what some consider a good tree.

 

[oppositeman13]

but the Church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.”

there have been many references by Popes and other holy people to the church in these time being smaller - the remnant church - after the great “shaking” - I, for one, believe what is happening in the church is the beginning of the final harvest of souls prior to the second coming. For those of us who are familiar with prophecy, past and present, and look at the many signs it all fits together - of course that doesn’t mean it’s for sure but scripture tells us a lot. If I am correct we will now see the severity and increased numbers of serious events - including the opening of the second seal - which is nuclear war and the arrival of the antichrist.

 

[Ghosty1981]

Good point about AL being addressed to the lay faithful. I think that so long as these discussions remain charitable they serve a valuable function in the Church.

How many documents such as AL would have been read by the lay faithful in previous eras? The information age has added a very new dynamic to the Church, and I think our Pope, Bishops, and priests are still learning how to communicate and lead in this modern world. They need to see how their communications are taken in and understood by the Faithful. The response to Amoris Laetitia may be an eye-opener for them, and that can be a great thing.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Rau]

They need to see how their communications are taken in and understood by the Faithful. The response to Amoris Laetitia may be an eye-opener for them, and that can be a great thing.

Important to note is that the (not wholly positive) reaction can’t merely be put down to lack of theological education on the part of the lay, for many Priests, Bishops and Theologian’s have had similar reactions.

 

[BarbTh]

Since AL there has been growing division, uncertainty, and confusion - not a good start to what some consider a good tree.

A matter of perspective. AL per se is a document comprised of words. What exactly has created division in The Church? Is it AL or is it our non understanding of AL; alternatively, is the division created perhaps not by misunderstanding AL, but by understanding it and calling it into question?. I don’t think that the fruit of AL and what has resulted is yet fully evident. We are on a journey as a Church and at the moment in conflict - one day that conflict will conclude. How it will conclude is not clearly evident as factual.

Jesus was crucified and the Church He established was conflicted and persecuted and for many years indeed. Was the conflict and persecution that resulted bad fruit? “Take up your cross and follow Me”

My own conclusion with Pope Francis promoting recently Cardinal Burke http://www.catholicworldreport.com/...mes-cardinal-burke-to-vaticans-highest-court/ is that Pope Francis has put Cardinal Burke in check…if one were playing chess. Interesting to see the next move with the ball in CB’s court.

there have been many references by Popes and other holy people to the church in these time being smaller - the remnant church - after the great “shaking” - I, for one …edited for word space…

St Paul was convinced Jesus would return in his own day - until Paul amended his understanding. Jesus said that no one knows when He Will Return, only The Father Knows. Not even Jesus knew. “Take up your cross and follow Me”. Jesus told us to expect many negative things before He returns. I simply do not know when at all - but I try to live my life each day as my last day since I do not know the hour of my own demise which will settle the salvation of my soul or the lack of it.
Insofar as the dreadful things we are experiencing in our own time, many thought with World War II and The Holocaust that Jesus was about to return. 100 years or so down the line and He has not. What this speaks to me is that indeed 100 years are nothing at all to The Father. How long the earth and mankind will labour in terrible circumstances we do not know. We cannot know in fact. The past no longer exists and the future we cannot know. We have only today, this moment.

One thing I do know is that most all the terrible events in our history have been man made. Therefore if we can make them, the potential at least that we can amend/repent of them if The Good Lord will give us the time and the inspiration. I cannot change others, but I can change myself and this is where I must begin, simply because it is what God has gifted me to begin with nothing more. What I am commanded to begin with as the inspiration for change is The Gospel and myself. I need to “preach The Gospel, with words only if necessary” (attributed to St Francis Assisi I think)

Mea maxima culpa

 

[BarbTh]

[No message]

 

[BarbTh]

Jesus was crucified and the Church He established was conflicted and persecuted and for many years indeed. Was the conflict and persecution that resulted bad fruit? “Take up your cross and follow Me”

Just occurred to me that the good fruit that resulted from the terrible death of Jesus and His (contested by some) Resurrection was the outstanding and heroic Faith and perseverance, fortitude of the early Church in terrible circumstances. Possible only hindsight reveals in all its fulness this good fruit and that fruit should be a real inspiration and motivation for us in difficult times.
It also reveals much about our doctrine of Divine Providence - see Catholic Catechism 302 - 324 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm

“We know that in everything God works for good for those who love Him.” Romans Chapter 8