The Cure of Ars on dancing

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tasha
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Shin said:
Well, let me put it to you this way. I have over one hundred quotations from the saints and scriptures on the fewness of the saved, that the saved are a small minority. To contradict these I have nothing. No quotes. None.

There are only a few quotes that cite numbers. St. Leonard of Port Maurice’s sermon cites some of these, so it is a good reference. 🙂

Since the numeric references are so rare one can’t get strong statistics from them. But it is always a mere handful out of all, not even one out of a thousand are saved, no it is far far worse. Perhaps one in ten thousand. Perhaps one in twenty thousand. Perhaps…?

In the case of the Cure’ of Ars in particular he says:

“The number of the saved is as few as the number of grapes left after the vinepickers have passed.”

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

Why are they few:

The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite.

Ecclesiastes 1:15

But even more so, in regards to Catholics the fewness applies too:

Bad confessions damned the majority of Christians.

St. Teresa of Avila

“Out of one hundred thousand sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved.”

St. Jerome, Priest, Doctor, Father of the Church

“What do you think? How many of the inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to tell you is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with its thousands of inhabitants not one hundred people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that!”

St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop, Doctor, Father of the Church

He also adds:

“I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.”

What about religious who are not priests?

Many religious go strait to Hell because they do not keep their vows!

St. Vincent Ferrer

Have things changed with modern times?

‘So many people are going to die, and almost all of them are going to Hell! So many people falling into hell!’

Bl. Jacinta of Fatima

Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that only few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost forever.

St. John Neumann, Bishop of Philadelphia, U.S.A.

What can we do about this?

Get out of the filth of the horrible torrent of this world, the torrent of thorns that is whirling you into the abyss of eternal perdition. …] This torrent is the world, which resembles an impetuous torrent, full of garbage and evil odours, making a lot of noise but flowing swiftly passed, dragging the majority of men into the pit of perdition.

St. John Eudes, Priest

‘Work out your salvation in fear and trembling!’

St. Paul (Phil 2:12)

‘If the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly sinner appear?’

St. Peter (1 St. Peter 4:18)

So there you have it, as the tree falls, so it lies. . .

As Catholics have always held you must be reconciled with God -before- you die, not after. If we see someone die unrepentant, do we presume in those moments where he has not been conscious to the world he was reconciled with God? It is not impossible but the odds, St. Jerome says, are a hundred thousand to one.

And if you and I don’t repent that’s where we’re going too. Perhaps you said you loved Christ… but you didn’t really mean it in deed, you only held it in your mind as a pretty thought to reassure yourself with.

I think that’s what most people do. We love Christ as a thought in the mind, not with our wills. We go on sinning, and loving the thought of Christ. We never make the change, the conversion, the fight against sin final.

Love… is in the will. And purity of heart is priceless. 🙂 Whenever I feel myself falter… I just have to go read St. Leonard… or a few quotes…
Click to expand...
Wow, what a lot of good information. I have no quarrel with anything you’ve said and I completely agree that the saved are few; however, it seems my point has been completely missed, so I’ll be plainer: what proof is there that St. Jean Vianney has more parishioners in Heaven than other priests? Unless someone knows how many of his parishioners are there and how many parishioners of other priests are there, then there is no way to back up the claim that “His parishioners went to Heaven. . far more often than the norm.”
 
Tasha said:
I found the article on a Catholic website. It’s a nice website that sells sacramentals. The article was not discussing liturgical dancing, but going to dances, etc.
Click to expand...
Great. I love to dance. One by one, all my simple human pleasures are being destroyed. Or are you all simply saying, “Well, MY kind of dance is okay! Polka is okay. But all other forms are sinful.”

And I wouldn’t hold up the Amish as any sort of example for Catholics. If you look closely you will see a lot of anti-Catholic ways there.
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
Great. I love to dance. One by one, all my simple human pleasures are being destroyed. Or are you all simply saying, “Well, MY kind of dance is okay! Polka is okay. But all other forms are sinful.”

And I wouldn’t hold up the Amish as any sort of example for Catholics. If you look closely you will see a lot of anti-Catholic ways there.
Click to expand...
St Francis de Sales says that dancing is not sinful in itself, but emphasizes that it can be an *occasion *for sin (this would include polka!) :rolleyes: St John Vianney suggests that dancing is *inherently *sinful. Sometimes saints disagree, so we need to use our prudence and discernment. At times it can seem as if the Faith is taking away our earthly pleasures one by one. The Lord says, “every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life” (Mt 19:29). This is a test of faith but St Francis de Sales gives us a long list of legitimate pleasures in the link I posted earlier.
 
Tybourne said:
St Francis de Sales says that dancing is not sinful in itself, but emphasizes that it can be an *occasion *for sin (this would include polka!) :rolleyes: St John Vianney suggests that dancing is *inherently *sinful. Sometimes saints disagree, so we need to use our prudence and discernment. At times it can seem as if the Faith is taking away our earthly pleasures one by one. The Lord says, “every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life” (Mt 19:29). This is a test of faith but St Francis de Sales gives us a long list of legitimate pleasures in the link I posted earlier.
Click to expand...
Interesting thought from your link:

3. Again, while you were dancing, many a soul has passed away amid sharp sufferings; thousands and tens of thousands were lying all the while on beds of anguish, some perhaps untended, unconsoled, in fevers, and all manner of painful diseases. Will you not rouse yourself to a sense of pity for them? At all events, remember that a day will come when you in your turn will lie on your bed of sickness, while others dance and make merry.

It appears that even good / lawful amusements must be guarded against / used moderately:

Only one must avoid excess, either in the time given to them, or the amount of interest they absorb; for if too much time be given up to such things, they cease to be a recreation and become an occupation; and so far from resting and restoring mind or body, they have precisely the contrary effect. I certainly have problems in that area!
 
Sheeniac said:
Only one must avoid excess, either in the time given to them, or the amount of interest they absorb; for if too much time be given up to such things, they cease to be a recreation and become an occupation; and so far from resting and restoring mind or body, they have precisely the contrary effect. I certainly have problems in that area!
Click to expand...
Yes I know what you mean! Downsizing and getting rid of stuff can help you from relying to much on any one form of recreation.

I have something of the collector mentality, as well as the tendancy to be absorbed in a single task and lose track of time, I have lately decided I need to turn 180 on that in many respects. 🙂
 
Sailor,

I think we have established that some forms of dancing are “safer” than others.

Have you met any Amish people? I have several. They are normal people, not perfect. They aren’t just anti-Catholic, they are anti-English, that is, non Amish. It is not a personal thing. The lifestyle is geared toward avoiding the near occasion of sin, so they seek amusements other ways. Most seem content with their lives. All of them are proud of their heritage. Whoops, there’s the trap. Sin exists even in monasteries, maybe even more so, who knows?

It seems to me, all activities have their inherent traps. think moderation and caution in everything is good, but an occasional good time cannot be offensive to God. I think our dispositions are the key to it all, regardless of our circumstances.

Perhaps the problem is an issue of our trying to control everything.
 
John of Kronstadt I will note is of recent Russian Orthodox origin, not a Catholic saint.
**FYI, beloved John Paul the Great referred to him by his honorific as SAINT John of Kronstadt.

And he was a miracle worker, too.**
 
If Pope John Paul IInd also refers to Anglican ‘bishops’ as bishops, it doesn’t make them anymore bishops, than calling John of Kronstadt a saint makes him canonized. 🙂

We sometimes give people and cultures titles they assume, whether they are real or not.

That being said I’m not so sure John of Kronstadt would disagree with what has been said here either.
bpbasilphx said:
John of Kronstadt I will note is of recent Russian Orthodox origin, not a Catholic saint.
**FYI, beloved John Paul the Great referred to him by his honorific as SAINT John of Kronstadt.

And he was a miracle worker, too.**
Click to expand...
 
Ceil-1 said:
Sailor,

I think we have established that some forms of dancing are “safer” than others.

Have you met any Amish people? I have several. They are normal people, not perfect. They aren’t just anti-Catholic, they are anti-English, that is, non Amish. It is not a personal thing. The lifestyle is geared toward avoiding the near occasion of sin, so they seek amusements other ways. Most seem content with their lives. All of them are proud of their heritage. Whoops, there’s the trap. Sin exists even in monasteries, maybe even more so, who knows?

It seems to me, all activities have their inherent traps. think moderation and caution in everything is good, but an occasional good time cannot be offensive to God. I think our dispositions are the key to it all, regardless of our circumstances.

Perhaps the problem is an issue of our trying to control everything.
Click to expand...
A lot of this sounds more fundamentalist than even the strictest Fundamental sects. What’s Catholic about that?
 
Hmmm, then again, who is the model of Catholic culture, lifestyle and behavior, for that matter?

I am convinced the catechism and Scripture are the two places to go for compliance issues. Anything else is the result of inspiration of the Holy Spirit working in the life of the person. The Amish do what they do for salvation. A Catholic would do it to promote virtue and cultivate holiness, which is necessary to salvation.

Perhaps God felt that St. Jean’s approach was what was needed at that place and time, but, not necessarily always.
 
I went through this same nightmare years ago. I LOVE to dance; the love for it and the natural ability for it runs in my family. I used to spend HOURS dancing - not out of desiring to sin but just for the enjoyment of it. A really innocent activity to my mind. But I once heard that when we dance our Guardian Angels stand at the doorway or outside the room. Also, I once read that St. Theresa would watch her sisters or someone (family?) dancing and that it bothered her.

I haven’t read about the Cure d’Ars. I can’t speak authoritatively. But I do think our world has evolved so much in recent CENTURIES that what might have been taboo has been allowed / overlooked. Clarity of what’s to be done would help. I’ll bet the Amish don’t dance - but I’m just supposing.
 
They sure don’t, but, neither do Baptists and Wesleyans, and many other fundamentalists. They don’t drink or smoke, either, all of which are believed to be sinful.
I don’t know how, since none are forbidden in the Bible, but…

Dancing is such an enjoyable activity. I think it is single boys and girls dancing together that is the near occasion of sin.
 
Shin said:
Well, let me put it to you this way. I have over one hundred quotations from the saints and scriptures on the fewness of the saved, that the saved are a small minority. To contradict these I have nothing. No quotes. None.

There are only a few quotes that cite numbers. St. Leonard of Port Maurice’s sermon cites some of these, so it is a good reference. 🙂

Since the numeric references are so rare one can’t get strong statistics from them. But it is always a mere handful out of all, not even one out of a thousand are saved, no it is far far worse. Perhaps one in ten thousand. Perhaps one in twenty thousand. Perhaps…?

In the case of the Cure’ of Ars in particular he says:

“The number of the saved is as few as the number of grapes left after the vinepickers have passed.”

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

Why are they few:

The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite.

Ecclesiastes 1:15

'One day the saintly Curé d’Ars was visited by a Protestant gentleman. The good priest, thinking he was a Catholic, began to speak to him about Our Lord and the Saints, as he was accustomed to do with all who came to see him.

As the man rose to leave, the Saint gave him a medal as a small remembrance of his visit.

The gentleman said to him: “Dear sir, you have given a medal to one who is a heretic – at least, I am a heretic from your point of view. But although we are not of the same religion, I hope we shall both be in Heaven one day.”

St. John Vianney took the man’s hand in his own and, giving him a penetrating look, answered: “Alas, my friend. We cannot be together in Heaven unless we have begun to live so in this world. Death makes no change in that. As the tree falls, so shall it lie.”

“But, my good Father,” replied the other, “I put my trust in Jesus Christ, Who said, ‘He that believes in Me shall have eternal life.’”

The priest answered: “Jesus Christ said many more things than that. He also said, ‘He that does not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican.’ And he also said, ‘There shall be one fold and one shepherd,’ and He made St. Peter the chief shepherd of His flock.”

Then he added, “My dear friend, there are not two ways of serving Jesus Christ. There is only one good way, and that is to serve Him as He Himself desires to be served.”’

But even more so, in regards to Catholics the fewness applies too:

Bad confessions damned the majority of Christians.

St. Teresa of Avila

“Out of one hundred thousand sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved.”

St. Jerome, Priest, Doctor, Father of the Church

"What do you think?..#

St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop, Doctor, Father of the Church

He also adds:

"I do not speak rashly…

What about religious who are not priests?

Many religious go strait to Hell because they do not keep their vows!

St. Vincent Ferrer

Have things changed with modern times?

‘So many people are going to die, and almost all of them are going to Hell! So many people falling into hell!’

Bl. Jacinta of Fatima

Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell…
St. John Neumann, Bishop of Philadelphia, U.S.A.

What can we do about this?

Get out of the filth of the horrible torrent of this world…

St. John Eudes, Priest

‘Work out your salvation in fear and trembling!’

St. Paul (Phil 2:12)

‘If the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly sinner appear?’

St. Peter (1 St. Peter 4:18)

So there you have it, as the tree falls, so it lies. . .

As Catholics have always held you must be reconciled with God -before- you die, not after. If we see someone die unrepentant, do we presume in those moments where he has not been conscious to the world he was reconciled with God? It is not impossible but the odds, St. Jerome says, are a hundred thousand to one.

And if you and I don’t repent that’s where we’re going too. Perhaps you said you loved Christ… but you didn’t really mean it in deed, you only held it in your mind as a pretty thought to reassure yourself with.

I think that’s what most people do. We love Christ as a thought in the mind, not with our wills. We go on sinning, and loving the thought of Christ. We never make the change, the conversion, the fight against sin final.

Love… is in the will. And purity of heart is priceless. 🙂 Whenever I feel myself falter… I just have to go read St. Leonard… or a few quotes…
Click to expand...

Father F. W. Faber has a very nuanced discussion of the fewness (or otherwise) of the saved, in - I think - “The Creator and the Creature”. And in the course of it, he quotes a number of authorities who take a less gloomy view of the ineffectiveness of the Redemption.​

Those quotations are a temptation to despair. What is the point of bothering, if it is so certain that few will be saved ? Such quotations make the Good News the worst possible news there could be; as well as being a temptation to sins such as blasphemy, suicide, licentiousness, hatred of God, despair, & other such. God help & have mercy on anyone troubled by scruples who comes across such stuff 😦 !

BTW: how does this doctrine not make the Church the vestibule or the pathway to Hell ? :eek: That is what this gloom and doom amounts to. It is far better to avoid Catholicism like the doorway to Hell this doctrines make it: for the less grace people have received, the less they will be answerable for; so it is better to die an unevangelised atheist, than to die a Catholic. Both (it seems) will go to Hell, but the Catholic will be the more deeply damned.

Is it a coincidence that nothing is said by those quoted about the Love of God, & the grace of loving God in return ?
 
Shin said:
Love… is in the will. And purity of heart is priceless. 🙂 Whenever I feel myself falter… I just have to go read St. Leonard… or a few quotes…
Click to expand...
You do us all a great service, Shin. Thank you for introducing us, time and again, to that “great cloud of witnesses”, who have “… washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb…”.
And may the Mercy of God be our refuge in this life and our sure consolation and joy in the next. Pax Christi
 
I see two reasons for the number of saved being so low. One is that we are liable for even thinking about committing sin even if we do not actually commit the sin, our desire or plan to sin makes us liable even though we don’t actually do the crime.

Second, many folks do not make a sincere confession, the idea behind confession is that we are to repent of our sins and vow not to commit those sins again. There needs to be a change of heart at confession, and when it is missing, we have failed to remove these sins from our lives.

St Teresa says, Purgatory has become the rule while Heaven is the exception. In early times Heaven was the rule and Purgatory was the exception.

And last is our hearts are in the wrong place, with so many distractions God is not first in our lives. Sports, money, things, activities, tv, distractions rule our lives. How many folks truly love God above everything else in their lives ? IF they really did they would avoid sin a whole lot better.
 
Actually, if a thought comes unbidden into our minds, it doesn’t count as a sin.

And last is our hearts are in the wrong place, with so many distractions God is not first in our lives. Sports, money, things, activities, tv, distractions rule our lives. How many folks truly love God above everything else in their lives ? IF they really did they would avoid sin a whole lot better.

At times, I wonder if God even makes the Top 5 list, and that’s with me trying to keep him in my life. Our lives are structured so that God is not near us. Not being part of a strong, close community of believers makes it tough.
 
Simple! Dancing is OK. But if in certain events we feel that dancing seems to be an occasion of sin, then avoid it at all costs.
 
What are we, the Taliban? No dancing, no singing, no music, no playing cards? What next, burkas?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top