The dangers of dabbling in the Occult, New Age, and NeoPaganism

[Patavium]

I was in New Age. I’m still recovering. I remember trying to become “One with God”, and it would be exhilarating for a few moments, then I’d suddenly become terrified. Like I was being eaten alive, that I had stopped existing. Sure enough I had dissolved into “It”, and it felt good - but also very dangerous, like I’d been tricked into doing this.

I believed in reincarnation - which is silly when you really think about it - and I was determined to never reincarnate again. (Strange, considering I never had before - otherwise I would have remembered it, right? I was so scared I’d come back to this world. I didn’t want to forget everything and come back. I remember reading Autobiography of a Yogi and Conversations with God which described how even great masters are reincarnated - Yogananda claimed to be a yogi in a previous life - and that the cycle never really ends. Walsch wrote that we’re all placed back on the treadmill eventually. I felt I was going through all this development and spiritual growth for nothing, because eventually I’d just return back to the start. Basically the doctrine was that we would reach the pinnacle of spiritual development where we would effectively cease to exist as individuals, would be nothing but “consciousness”, spend some time there, and then be recycled back to the beginning. I hated that.

I begged Vishnu, my personal god, to not let that happen to me. I asked him to accept me as I was, even though my karma hadn’t worked itself out yet, and to not force me become the same substance as him. My ego both had to be inflated (I was one with God, and thus essentially perfect and unstained) and destroyed (I had to cease all identification with my temporal self). I asked not to have to go through that. I didn’t have the confidence to insist that I was totally self-dependent on my search for Godhood. I asked Vishnu to let me into Vaikuntha and not send me back out again while he got to stay there and keep his spiritual gains. (The other opinion was that even he eventually died, and I didn’t want to think of God as mortal, since it meant he was imperfect and I didn’t want to trust such a deity.)

Still I had the confidence to insist that I was one with God, even though I wasn’t always comfortable with it. My mystical world-weariness was proof enough of that. I let my ego grow into God. I didn’t have to be what other people considered a “good” person. I had to focus on my spiritual development and not be distracted by others and their needs. What need could be higher than spiritual attainment? And everything I did was justified, even if I was rude or selfish. Yogis in India are allowed to act that way towards their devotees, even demanding sex and money of them. It’s because they’re trying to impart lessons on them (what those lessons are, I don’t know), and because they’re entitled to that sort of behavior due to their exalted status. I thought people should look up to me for seeing “The Big Picture”. I actively looked forward to the time I would get ahold of some DMT or ketamine or LSD, so I could expand my spiritual consciousness. (Looking back, isn’t that the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever heard? Taking a pill and thinking that it makes you closer to spiritual reality? It’s a freaking pill! Like Tylenol! The sights you see and sounds you hear - those are all just side effects and HALLUCINATIONS, not anything real! Just like most dreams! It changes how your brain chemicals work. That’s all!)

Long story short, God eventually shamed me. He showed me that I was not Him, but His creation. There was no way I could mistake manipulating my thoughts and brain into feelings of Godhood anymore. I didn’t realize it but I had been begging for a Savior, and He came to me. Now I feel blessed that I did not have the pride to assume I did not need grace or help. If I had it probably would have blinded me, and I would have gone on meditating and ascending, burning karma with prostrations and withdrawing, presenting gifts to gurus who dismissed them, and giving others unwanted advice about how they should be more like me - holy and perfect. There was always that seed of desperation inside me, underneath all the layers of ego and self (non-self?). I am now grateful God sent me here to where I am now, rather than letting me continue on my course. He really did answer my prayers.

I truly believe I was under the influence of something evil that still tracks into my thoughts from time to time. I was cooperating with it in the hopes of glorifying myself (I eventually hoped people would pray to me as a master), and so it’s going to take a while before I can totally extricate myself from it. I still get temptations but nothing compares to the Holy Spirit.

Beautiful testimony!. Thanks for sharing. Yes indeed. Many people without noticing are in pursue of powers to be like God himself. They don’t want to serve God, but want to be a God others serve. They want to be able to control their destinies in a supernatural way. They seek to rise above their peers instead of focusing on making sure they are serving God.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I would argue that it’s the intent behind the actions. You know that some people, when given the power to channel lightning, would start using it on other people, same with super human strength, the engineering skills would probably get a pass, though, or perhaps they all would, given that they are innate talents, but only if they’re used for good.

True but that’s simply an issue of use. In the same way, the Church is all but eager to encourage the proper use of power. However, there’s nothing in there that suggest power itself is evil.

Hence, it’s why I think it’s more against the idea of what fundamentalists have about demons possessing the power that their pagan rivals claimed they have. I’m not closed to the idea that demons may have posed as false gods. I am closed to the idea that such demons were literally those gods and that those gods had demi-god children.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Beautiful testimony!. Thanks for sharing. Yes indeed. Many people without noticing are in pursue of powers to be like God himself. They don’t want to serve God, but want to be a God others serve. They want to be able to control their destinies in a supernatural way. They seek to rise above their peers instead of focusing on making sure they are serving God.

Even in the context of Nabooru’s post, I sense flaws in your logic.

I find it disturbing that the way you describe the ‘pursuit of power’ could also charged against science. Do you object to science?

Before, they thought only God could control lightning. Today lightning powers most of our technology. Before, they thought we could never reach the moon. I’m sure you don’t believe in Moon landing conspiracy theories. Before, man thought only birds could fly. Today people fly even on a daily basis.

Every year, man develops science and technology to have more control. That includes control over destiny. We develop ways to do things better, faster, and more organized. So I ask you, does science pursue powers reserve only for God?

I think before you make statements like this, you need to determine what is ‘supernatural’. If I had the means to go back to medieval times, people would think the power of channeling electricity would be supernatural. I would even be accused of witchcraft!

 

[saveusfromhell]

Originally Posted by NonServiam
There are no dangers, aside from wasting your time and money on a bunch of nonsense and doing a bunch of goofy things like wearing crystals, lighting candles, calling yourself something ridiculous like “Raven MoonShadow.”

The Church is actually closer to this position than some ‘spiritual warriors’ here would want to admit.
.)

this is your post maybe go back and check it yourself before insulting me. and again provide the relevant cathacism to back this up. or church document. why not try google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=jesus%20the%20water%20bearer%20of%20life&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vatican.va%2Froman_curia%2Fpontifical_councils%2Finterelg%2Fdocuments%2Frc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html&ei=VCr4T8j-HoG3hQe1ucTeBg&usg=AFQjCNHIm8oVnBIzWxncLINyFAUbtyKGvQ

One problem with that little argument pal: 1. Physical Death----->2. Spiritual Death.

I guess you need to review your Catechism.

so now you quote dante to provide a catechism quote. please provide the cathacism that backs your argument. as stated above

One problem with that little argument pal: 1. Physical Death----->2. Spiritual Death.

I guess you need to review your Catechism.

to help you here is the post you were replying to

Originally Posted by saveusfromhell
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
i guess we need to rewrite the bible

then

 

[Lokabrenna]

Before, they thought only God could control lightning. Today lightning powers most of our technology. Before, they thought we could never reach the moon. I’m sure you don’t believe in Moon landing conspiracy theories. Before, man thought only birds could fly. Today people fly even on a daily basis.

It might be apocryphal, but I heard a minister once said (paraphrased) that “flying was for angels”–he was related to the Wright brothers. I think it might have been their father, Wiki says he was a bishop in the Church of the United Brethren in Christ.

They also once thought wombs walk around and camp in women’s brains, causing hysteria, and that women didn’t contribute anything genetically to their offspring, just a nice warm container to keep them safe for nine months.

 

[Patavium]

Even in the context of Nabooru’s post, I sense flaws in your logic.

I find it disturbing that the way you describe the ‘pursuit of power’ could also charged against science. Do you object to science?

Before, they thought only God could control lightning. Today lightning powers most of our technology. Before, they thought we could never reach the moon. I’m sure you don’t believe in Moon landing conspiracy theories. Before, man thought only birds could fly. Today people fly even on a daily basis.

Every year, man develops science and technology to have more control. That includes control over destiny. We develop ways to do things better, faster, and more organized. So I ask you, does science pursue powers reserve only for God?

I think before you make statements like this, you need to determine what is ‘supernatural’. If I had the means to go back to medieval times, people would think the power of channeling electricity would be supernatural. I would even be accused of witchcraft!

You think Science is the pursuit of power? Lightning powers most of our technology? Control over destiny?

Science is NOT the pursuit of power. Simply put Science is the scholarly study of Nature. The applications we get from Science to our daily life are not evidence that we are pursuing power. They are simply ways for mankind to satisfy its need to understand.

I am a scientist by profession, and my research is mostly focused on ways to figure out consumers behavior with regards to different pricing strategies of the transportation system. This understanding will help governments to manage traffic congestion, and other urban related problems. I am not pursuing any power over people. I am contributing to the efficiency of the transportation system, and by consequence to reduce the stress of drivers. Similarly, physicists are not trying to produce devices to cast lightning from their hands, but to understand the mechanism of physical phenomena so that we may be able to build devices such as computers, trains, and others… or simply understand the “how” of the behavior of Nature.

The desire to have supernatural powers is not the pursuit of science. In fact, the scientific advancements are for the most part distributed to everyone at a price. The people who pay the price vary depending on the technology.

Now, You desiring to fly, teleport, and other powers that are NOT available to the rest of your peers is likely to separate you from God. This is the problem. The danger is becoming arrogant, and having this desire to constantly feed your Ego. This is what Nabooru is talking about. What matters is how your HEART is affected by these desires, and how it separates you from God. We should know our place. We are SONS and DAUGHTERS of God. We are not God’s brother or God’s father or anything above or equal to God.

 

[Patavium]

It might be apocryphal, but I heard a minister once said (paraphrased) that “flying was for angels”–he was related to the Wright brothers. I think it might have been their father, Wiki says he was a bishop in the Church of the United Brethren in Christ.

They also once thought wombs walk around and camp in women’s brains, causing hysteria, and that women didn’t contribute anything genetically to their offspring, just a nice warm container to keep them safe for nine months.

There is a lot of hear say been throw around in this thread without any substantiated support.

 

[Nabooru]

Science often can be a pursuit of power. I’m an archaeologist in training myself, and the biologic sciences concern me with their shameless manipulation of life. How can we create it? How can we destroy it? How can we create immortality, and who do we have to knock down to get there? When the public gets aghast at some of the things scientists do, such as try to control genes or find ways to make one child from three parents, or develop even deadlier nuclear weapons, or create a new sort of eugenics, or kill thousands of animals in the lab through torture - they roll their eyes at us and call us sentimental, silly, backward, because nothing should ever stand in the way of their scientific achievements.

 

[Patavium]

Science often can be a pursuit of power. I’m an archaeologist in training myself, and the biologic sciences concern me with their shameless manipulation of life. How can we create it? How can we destroy it? How can we create immortality, and who do we have to knock down to get there? When the public gets aghast at some of the things scientists do, such as try to control genes or find ways to make one child from three parents, or develop even deadlier nuclear weapons, or create a new sort of eugenics, or kill thousands of animals in the lab through torture - they roll their eyes at us and call us sentimental, silly, backward, because nothing should ever stand in the way of their scientific achievements.

Granted that some of the topics of research are controversial, but still Science is only looking to understand. At the end, the applications we get from our augmented understanding of phenomena are still subject to us, human beings (international organizations, governments, and so on).Those that use science against other fellow human beings for sinful purposes (murder, steal…) are committing sins.

I should also point out a common misconception of Science. Many individuals believe that there is some kind of UPPER LIMIT that we will eventually understand everything with regards to Nature. This is very unlikely. The more we understand, the more research questions arise, and in overall the less we know. Not to mention that sometimes we find out that what we though we understood, we didn’t really understand, and thus we must void, update, or replace our understanding.

 

[TEPO]

As Catholics and Christians, it is up to us to dictate the proper balance between what is or is not in line with Natural Law. It’s not naturally lawful to be opposed to science since it does good for mankind and nature, yet it’s not naturally lawful to back those who use stem cells for research, or to use science as a way to disprove God or whatever else it doesn’t have the capacity to make an honest claim on.

It’s not naturally lawful to denounce exercise or stretching or meditation or love of nature in the name of God. …and it’s not naturally lawful to practice new age or any eastern spirituality techniques to gain insight, as these things belong to God.

As Catholics we need to identify the dangers, and proclaim what the proper balance is between Gods spiritual truths and Gods worldly truths.

 

[TEPO]

For me exercise, nature, astronomy, and meditation are very much human qualities, since God created these things for us to deal with here. Catholicism is the spiritual quality that God has given. Now I search for balance.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I am a scientist by profession, and my research is mostly focused on ways to figure out consumers behavior with regards to different pricing strategies of the transportation system. This understanding will help governments to manage traffic congestion, and other urban related problems. I am not pursuing any power over people. I am contributing to the efficiency of the transportation system, and by consequence to reduce the stress of drivers. Similarly, physicists are not trying to produce devices to cast lightning from their hands, but to understand the mechanism of physical phenomena so that we may be able to build devices such as computers, trains, and others… or simply understand the “how” of the behavior of Nature.

The desire to have supernatural powers is not the pursuit of science. In fact, the scientific advancements are for the most part distributed to everyone at a price. The people who pay the price vary depending on the technology.

This is a little odd because it’s for these same reasons that ‘magic’ in fiction is no longer a religion but a subject of academic study. People study ‘spells’ that will help achieve efficiency. Magical flying transports are designed to reduce the costs of travel for the same reason people design airplanes.

Furthermore, you are forgetting that we have electric-based weaponry from the taser to the prototype railgun. A gauntlet that shoots out electricity would’ve been fantasy in the medieval centuries but now, it’s science-fiction because our current technology makes it sound very feasible.

You see the problem behind your other post is that some will still rule it as a pursuit of power. You pursue a better means to make something more efficient. For that, you need control. You need power. A power in some form is pursued but you also compound with more noble reasons. I have no problem with that.

It’s just that the other post simply screamed, “don’t pursue power”. Period.

Again, the question is how do you define ‘supernatural’?

It remains a fact that what many of our ancestors thought was reserved only for the supernatural, we’ve replicated it or harnessed it today. That alone could give some whackos a reason to go Catholic Luddite.

My position still remains is that the one sin exclusive to New Age is the violations against the 1st Commandment. Wanting to be God’s equal is a sin of Pride but it’s not a sin that violates that commandment. It’s a sin that is enabled by anything else, not just ‘supernatural’ power.

Now, You desiring to fly, teleport, and other powers that are NOT available to the rest of your peers is likely to separate you from God. This is the problem. The danger is becoming arrogant, and having this desire to constantly feed your Ego. This is what Nabooru is talking about. What matters is how your HEART is affected by these desires, and how it separates you from God. We should know our place. We are SONS and DAUGHTERS of God. We are not God’s brother or God’s father or anything above or equal to God.

Oh I don’t question the dangers of pride but please give my words above some thought. Besides, some people already have abilities and traits that are not necessarily available to everyone else. Take high IQ for instance.

On the other hand, what if the powers you described WERE to become available to everyone? What if one day you could acquire shoes that let you fly or access to teleportation devices?

Anything can boost ego and these not necessarily be ‘supernatural’ power. I for one know a few people who rely on just their big mouth, their social connections, and their poisonous charisma.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

this is your post maybe go back and check it yourself before insulting me. and again provide the relevant cathacism to back this up.

You lack the capacity to read. That’s an established fact based on your post, not an insult.

I told you to read THIS didn’t I?

2110 The first commandment forbids honoring gods other than the one Lord who has revealed himself to his people. It proscribes superstition and irreligion. Superstition in some sense represents a perverse excess of religion; irreligion is the vice contrary by defect to the virtue of religion.

2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g.,** when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary**. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.

There are no dangers, aside from wasting your time and money on a bunch of nonsense and doing a bunch of goofy things like wearing crystals, lighting candles, calling yourself something ridiculous like "Raven MoonShadow."

Like I said, the Church is closer to the position that condemns nonsense superstition.

so now you quote dante to provide a catechism quote. please provide the cathacism that backs your argument. as stated above

so now you quote dante to provide a catechism quote. please provide the cathacism that backs your argument. as stated above

Ah, more proof that you don’t read. You’re the one advocating Dante theology here, not me.
I don’t see anything the Catechism that suggests people can damn themselves to hell before they die.

That’s the problem with the “Spiritual Death > Physical Death” argument you so-called ‘spiritual warriors’ like to chuck about all the time. You need to be separated from your physical body via physical death before you’re condemned to hell.

It’s such a simple tenet of our theology and yet here you are, flouting it with your fantasy.

Please read my posts properly. You’re the one advocating Dante theology not me. Physical death

 

[saveusfromhell]

You lack the capacity to read. That’s an established fact based on your post, not an insult.

I told you to read THIS didn’t I?

Like I said, the Church is closer to the position that condemns nonsense superstition.

Ah, more proof that you don’t read. You’re the one advocating Dante theology here, not me.
I don’t see anything the Catechism that suggests people can damn themselves to hell before they die.

That’s the problem with the “Spiritual Death > Physical Death” argument you so-called ‘spiritual warriors’ like to chuck about all the time. You need to be separated from your physical body via physical death before you’re condemned to hell.

It’s such a simple tenet of our theology and yet here you are, flouting it with your fantasy.

Please read my posts properly. You’re the one advocating Dante theology not me. Physical death

as usual, your tactic of insulting and twisting the debate, not matter i accept you understand your wrong:thumbsup:, as none of the above i put forward, nor would i. maybe if you read the thread again it might help you. no point respoding any more because lost will just alter each post and on and on and on.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

as usual, your tactic of insulting and twisting the debate, not matter i accept you understand your wrong, as none of the above i put forward, nor would i.

Where was I wrong? The evidence is staring at you. Read. If you don’t know how, that’s not my problem. Stating it as a fact is not an insult either. It’s no more offensive than calling a spade a spade.

You put forward the idea that:

Spiritual Death > Physical Death

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yet, both the laws of spiritual and material realities agree that you need to die first before you can be condemned to hell.

 

[saveusfromhell]

a fact is not an insult either. It’s no more offensive than calling a spade a spade.

You put forward the idea that:

Spiritual Death > Physical Death

Yet, both the laws of spiritual and material realities agree that you need to die first before you can be condemned to hell.

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
not sure how you have twisted mattew 10;28 into me saying you don’t have to die before being condemed to hell.God forbid. by the way there is many insults in your previous post no matter.

Physical Death -----> Spiritual Death
Spiritual Death > Physical Death
by the way you entered these, not me, and they also don’t mean the same thing.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
not sure how you have twisted mattew 10;28 into me saying you don’t have to die before being condemed to hell.

O rly? So I guess Satan ISN’T so powerful cuz isn’t that the reason why he’s not bursting out of the ground in some random city and letting all hell loose on earth huh?

Oh yeah. All far fear the Prince of Darkness. Ooooh, I is so scaaaared.

 

[saveusfromhell]

O rly? So I guess Satan ISN’T so powerful cuz isn’t that the reason why he’s not bursting out of the ground in some random city and letting all hell loose on earth huh?

Oh yeah. All far fear the Prince of Darkness. Ooooh, I is so scaaaared.

lost once upon a time i may have disagreed with many of your posts but thought of you as intelligent, this is now dribble your posting, you have amalgamated many ideas and are trying to make a rebuttal from them.

mattew 10 28 applies to your above statement. trying to alter that to me posting you don’t have to die prior to being condmended to hell is some leap.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

lost once upon a time i may have disagreed with many of your posts but thought of you as intelligent, this is now dribble your posting, your amalgamating many ideas and trying to make a rebuttal from them.

You’re the one accusing people of downplaying Satan and making confusing, botched renditions of everyone’s posts. I say you need to take a really long, hard look at your nearest mirror.

 

[saveusfromhell]

You’re the one accusing people of downplaying Satan and making confusing, botched renditions of everyone’s posts. I say you need to take a really long, hard look at your nearest mirror.

which you just did in your second last post , which the bbile has a different view on.

botched rendition

no you added to your post later on, in a rebuttal to me, would have been easier for you to simple add in the extra quote in response to clear up but instead you decided to claim i can’t read. but i suppose the alternative might indicate you made a mistake not fully quoting what you meant.
i’m not even sure it changed the meaning of your post but the tactics you use i can no longer know, nor care what it was about

anyway enough if this on and on and on, ill give you the last word.